Talk:Operation Olive Branch

Restoration of Rudaw

The fact that a source is "pro-Kurdish" and we use "pro-Turkish" sources is not a good reason to use an unreliable source in an article. Rudaw is unreliable, whatever its POV is. Unreliable content should note be edit warred into articles only because it represents a "pro-Kurdish" POV or any other POV. Edit warring to keep unreliable content in the article for expressly stated POV reasons (and not because it adds anything of encyclopedic value to the article) doesn't meet the standard for inclusion in a Wikipedia article. Seraphim System ^(talk) 22:36, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

It’s not all that black and white. We use pro-Kurdish outlets like Rudaw and etc. For official announcements and stats. Same goes for Turkish sources like Anadolu Agency. When it comes to sensitive information like war crimes, we should not use them. This has been the case for quite some time now. I’m curious though, it sounds like your problem is merely with pro-Kurdish outlets like Rudaw, would you say the same for pro-Turkish outlets like Anadolu Agency? Because it’s strange why you kept AA and deleted huge chunks of material sourced to Rudaw. Étienne Dolet (talk) 00:57, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Have I ever used AA as a source? Seraphim System ^(talk) 01:46, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

What’s with the strawman? I never made such an accusation. This is much less about you adding AA and more so about you removing them. So again, I’m curious as to why pro-Kurdish outlets bother you so much when there are pro-Turkish outlets all over that nfobox. Oh, and by the way, “pro-Turkish” is to put it mildly, these are Erdogan’s mouth pieces. So under your logic, those sources should be removed too, right? Étienne Dolet (talk) 02:19, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Ideally, yes, but AA is fine as a source for official TSK casualty figures. Rudaw is not an official source for anything and the cite in the article is not for any kind of official announcement of SDF casualty figures [1], it is a YPG claim of killing FSA fighters. Did you actually check to see what you were restoring before hitting revert and assuming bad faith? Also, noting that this has since been changed to "Per SDF" by another editor, but when I removed it (And you restored it) it said per-PKK. Instead of knee jerk edit warring with me, please focus on correcting these errors and improving sourcing as many of the editors here are trying to do.Seraphim System ^(talk) 02:54, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Rudaw is a news agency that is affiliated with the KDP in Iraq so that's as official as it can get from the Kurdish community since there's no independent Kurdish nation-state. As for what the source says, you're free to modify the wording to reflect it better. But I was merely responding to your rationale when it comes to the removal of pro-Kurdish news outlets. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:09, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Operation ongoing

AussieTruthSeeker, first, you may consider The Guardian and The National "dubious", but they are considered reliable sources by Wikipedia. Second, like I said in my edit summary, Turkey itself has stated Operation "Olive Branch", which is the subject of this article, to be still ongoing. They publish weekly operational briefings, constantly updating the number of SDF fighters they have "neutralized" in their operations against them in the Afrin region as part of "Olive Branch". Even Erdogan himself has stated the operation will be achieved when the Turks take Tal Rifaat. Third, Wikipedia is based on verifiability, and at the moment there are no sources that state Operation "Olive Branch" has ended. So please, engage in a discussion here on the talk page and seek a consensus, as per Wiki policy, for any major changes to the article. EkoGraf (talk) 23:44, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page have been nominated for speedy deletion

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Recent edits

@Marjdabi: Hello Marjdabi! First of all I want to say that I did not remove your contribution out of malice, but because they have extensive problems:

• The images you have added were taken by the YPG/YPJ, and even though Turkey designates them as terrorist organizations, they can still hold copyright - Even ISIL and al-Qaeda members do hold copyright, so that we cannot use their images on Wikipedia. You should only upload media that is stated to be copryight-free. For example, the Qasioun News Agency states under their videos that they are Creative Commons, so you can upload screenshots or entire videos from them - They are a good source for images/videos in opposition-held areas.
• Furthermore, the entire section about the suicide bombing is already discussed in the section about the offensive itself; a separate section just for suicide bombings only makes sense when there were several, but there were not, so this is WP:UNDUE.
• I do not deny that the reports mention that the YPG/YPJ used or still uses child soldiers. These reports do not mention YPG/YPJ child soldiers in the Afrin District during the operation, however, so this section has no place here.
• Finally, the decision not to use certain sources such as specific Turkish and Russian newspapers for controversial topics, including war crime accusations, has been the result of several discussions that took place in the last few years. In addition, bombings are already mentioned in the "Turkish stabilization efforts and SDF insurgency". This section is barebones, of course, so it would be great if you could expand it with reports about the numerous bombings that took place in the last months. Try to find more reliable sources; Western sources can generally be used, but you can also use native Syrian media like Zaman al-Wasl and others. These sources also have a bias and problems, but are considered to be somewhat more reliable for these topics than Russian and Turkish media.

I hope you can see now why I removed your expansions. Applodion (talk) 23:19, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

I ever said you removed to contributions out of malice, they are removed because of bias. The events are significant and need a section of their own. I can agree with the copyright work if you really suggest it will make a difference.

• The suicide bombing is a major event and controversy of the campaign that require a section on its own, rather than a single sentence during the offensive section. Similarly since TFSA war crimes have their own option the SDF war crimes require a section as well. And the SDF war crimes have caused more civilian and material casualties than the TFSA one so it does need a section ofits own.
• The source which claims YPG recruiting soldiers in Afrin does mention them recruiting children during the offensive. And so does the daily sabah website.
• The decision not to use certain newspapers would make this absolute, along with other articles regarding Syrian Civil War,since these specific countries are the few sources reporting the events in detail. This includes the countless Kurdish sources all of which are biased towards the Kurdish side, as well as the Al Masdar website which is owned by the Syrian Governement, (Which is used extensively in Wikipedia covering Syrian Civil War articles.) So if you want to pull out sources you feel are biased the entire article would become obsolete. So please stop applying your bias that the Pro Kurdish sources have greater legitimacy over the Turkish sources or the Russian sources. Both are allowed to be included in the article. If one of them is. The contribution I've made significantly improves the articles quality, and there is no specific reason to remove the entirety of the article. Marjdabi (talk) 23:33, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

@Marjdabi: After thinking about it, you are probably right that the suicide bombing deserves its own section. Furthermore, this article confirms that the YPG used child soldiers during the operation, but the other references do not mention the Afrin operation and are unnecessary. I also think it would be best to move the section about the child soldiers to "Composition of forces". Finally, the sources you named like pro-YPG newspapers and al-Masdar News should also not be used as sources for controversial topics - just like Turkish and Russian sources, they can be used for non-contentious infos about military actions (where the frontline is, which militias and commanders are part of a battle, etc.). This is not my decision, the community agreed to handle these sources in this way to improve the neutrality. Applodion (talk) 08:19, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

I disagree. A single suicide bombing by an individual fighter with little tactical and strategic consequences doesn't deserve to have an entire section, as if it was a significant tactic used during the offensive. It is by no means a "major event". It's better to mention it as a sentence or two in the offensive section. The "US-backed" part should also be removed as YPG/J forces in the Afrin Region were never supported by the US. Editor abcdef (talk) 08:46, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

It was a mistake that the article was missing this the whole time, the controversial tactics and war crimes are listed in the article in detail. This section is one of the biggest if not biggest factor of the controversy of the campaign, it does require a section on its own as it is one of the biggest events during the campaign. The US backed part is included as the fighters received support from the US armed section of the group. Afrin region was not directly supported by the US but the US supported fighters traveled to Afrin during the operation.Marjdabi (talk) 17:20, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Operation "ongoing"

To what extent is the Operation still ongoing? SDF battle of Raqqa resulted in an ISIS insurgency going on to this day, which results in around 5-10 SDF deaths every week. Yet that article is dubbed as Decisive SDF victory. What I suggest is 2 status conditions, one in which says the main operation resulted in "Decisive Turkish victory" and the insurgency phase as "ongoing". When the operation is dubbed as ongoing it makes it appear is if there is still an operation being conducted, while it stopped almost 6 months ago now. The bombings and assassinations are not a part of the "Operation phase", as the title of the article mentions. Marjdabi (talk) 17:59, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree operation olive branch has been completed. The aftermath should get its own article Bibilili (talk) 18:51, 5 September 2018 (UTC)