Talk:Syntactic gemination

rafforzamento sintattico

Comment

The following item was commented in the article:

• In particular, the initial gemination may be conditioned by syntax. For example, in the phrase "La volpe ne aveva mangiato metà prima di addormentarsi" ("The fox had eaten half of it before falling asleep"), there is no gemination after metà, because prima is part of the adjunct, a sentence element phonologically isolated from the main clause within the prosodic hierarchy of the phrase.(ref> Nespor, Marina & Irene Vogel (1986). Prosodic Phonology. Dordrecht: Foris.</ref)
  • Comment: Most people will double the consonant in this case if the adjunct does not follow a comma!! Template:Unsigned:151.63.170.49

Quite right. Vogel herself has since revised the claim. The syntactic construction provides the opportunity for a slight pause; if there is no pause, however, which there often is not, raddoppiamento applies. The account in the text should be removed.

Any further comments? `'Míkka 16:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• I am no linguistic expert, but as a native speaker from Central Italy (Rome) I take issue with the example of gemination "Come va?"; the gemination of "v" in this context is heard as a strong sign of a Tuscan accent (especially Florentine) that does not apply elsewhere in Italy; you can hear that when the name of the famous painter "Leonardo da Vinci" is pronounced, even in a formal context, here in Rome (quite often since it's the name of the main airport) as opposed to hearing the same name pronounced in Florence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.80.88.3 (talk) 12:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Try this: using Roman phonology of a register that allows "lenition" (la cagna will sound almost like la gagna, Caracalla will sound more like Caragalla), say "come canta bene!". What does the "c" of canta sound like?

This applies to tuscan or roman accent

Hello, I'm an Italian speaker of Milan and I would like to certify that the article gives a bit of a wrong impression: the described phaenomena are features of some accents, not of the standard italian pronounciation: in fact you will not find one lombard, venetian or (for instance) piemontese person saying "vado a casa" as ['vado ak'kasa]: they'd say (with minimal variation about open or close vowels) ['vado 'a 'kaza] Giacomo Volli (talk) 15:19, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I do not agree, sorry. Various Italian dictionaries use to report syntactic doubling as a phenomenon involved by certain words, so aside from local accents I think it must be considered as a standard feature. Compare e.g. the authoritative Dizionario d'Ortografia e di Pronunzia (DOP):

"la parola italiana che porta alla fine della trascrizione fonetica un segno di «più» vuole dopo di sé il raddoppiamento sintattico"[1]

"the Italian [entry] word with a «plus» sign after pronunciation spelling 'wants' (involves) syntactic doubling".

Furthermore, syntactic doubling explains compound words (da per tutto > dappertutto) that are doubtless standard Italian, and would not have been produced by Piemontese or Lombard or Venetian dialects (and, I assure you, not even by many non-Tuscan Central Italian dialects). --Erinaceus (talk) 21:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It is indeed the case that Northern pronunciation in general (and Milan pronunciation specifically) has been slowly threatening to oust the standard Florence-based pronunciation of Italian over the last few decades, due largely to media domination. It is similar to the way that American English is encroaching on the long-established standards of pronunciation and spelling that exist in English. It's not unusual to hear Milanese claim that their dialectal ['vedrɔ lo'dzi:o setti'ma:na 'prɔssima] is more correct than ['vedrɔ llo'ttsi:o lasetti'ma:na 'prɔssima]. I wonder if they would go so far as to make a purely spelling-based distinction between e pure and eppure, or between tivvù and TV (I've never listened out for that one). — Chameleon 00:53, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, you have to differentiate between the standard pronunciation of an "italiano comune" which is actually spoken by 3% of the population (cf. Canepari, L. (1983): Italiano standard e pronunce regionali, Padova.2nd ed.). This means that most of the speaker of Italian deviate from the (hyopthetic) norm. Nevertheless, the raddoppiamento exists in this (hyopthetic) norm. To claim that a large number of speaker (esp. in the North) do not have it does not mean that the raddoppiamento is not a feature in italiano comune. You want to describe differences of the regional Italians, you need to have italiano comune as a common reference.Don-M (talk) 12:51, 26 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding undated comment added 12:51, 26 July 2009 (UTC).