Talk:Samson Option

This article needs to describe thehow the "Samson option" differsfrom the mutually assured destruction concept that played a part in the cold between Russia and the U.S.. As I understand it, use of nukes against Israel would not be needed for the option to be invoked (unlike the Cold War's mutually assured destruction) or at least that's how I beleive Hersh described it. --Cab88 04:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

No doubt they're somewhat similar in abstract strategic logic, but there are many practical differences of detail, such as that:

1) Both the Soviets and U.S. had nukes, while Arabs have not had nukes.

2) The Soviets and U.S. never claimed as their overall strategic goal the extirpation of the other nation as a political entity, and the "throwing" of its people "into the sea", while for many decades there was a constant stream of wannabe-genocidal threats against Israel from Arabs (including from official government spokesmen), as there still is from Ahmadinajad of Iran.

3) The Soviet Union and the U.S. were completely open and public about possessing nukes, while Israel has not been.

4) It has been implicitly understood that Israel could retaliate nuclearly against a (non-nuclear) biological, chemical, or "mega-terrorism" attack which kills thousands of Israelis and/or thows the future existence of Israel as a Jewish state into question.

5) It has been implicitly understood that in the case of such an attack, Israel could retaliate nuclearly against ALL surrounding and nearby Arab countries, as well as some of its more comitted enemies (such as Iran). That's why Israel probably has over a hundred warheads, not 10 or 12.

AnonMoos 05:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Carol Moore hysteria

If Israel were forced into using this option, nuclear attacks on major European capitals (Moscow, Berlin, etc.) as well as Arab countries is nearly assured. -- 09:19, 12 May 2007 68.160.11.195

Please explain. --Nucleusboy 21:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

This is an important article because the Samson Option is about indiscriminate destruction of people and government who have not attacked and do not support attacks on Israel. Also, any attack on Russia by our ally Israel would result in a Russian attack on the US.

While Israeli officials have been more indirect in their threats, private supporters have been more forthcoming. A widely circulated quote that I'll include when get around to fixing up article can be found on a number of sites: Prof. Martin Van Crevel, a professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem: Our armed forces are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. Israel has the capability of hitting most European capitals with nuclear weapons. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that this will happen before Israel goes under.

In April 2002 Jewish academic David Perlmutter in the Los Angeles Times inferred Israel under some circumstances would launch revenge attacks against targets worldwide:Israel has been building nuclear weapons for 30 years. The Jews understand what passive and powerless acceptance of doom has meant for them in the past, and they have ensured against it. Masada was not an example to follow--it hurt the Romans not a whit, but Sampson in Gaza? With an H-bomb? What would serve the Jew-hating world better in repayment for thousands of years of massacres but a Nuclear Winter. Or invite all those tut-tutting European statesmen and peace activists to join us in the ovens? For the first time in history, a people facing extermination while the world either cackles or looks away--unlike the Armenians, Tibetans, World War II European Jews or Rwandans--have the power to destroy the world. The ultimate justice?

Right now I'm too busy to update this article with a mass of sources I have on the topic. A few quotes and links can be found on my web page if anyone wants to investigate. Israeli Nuclear Threats and Blackmail

There have been a couple new books on Israeli nuclear weapons and strategy and a number of new articles since I put that page up in 2005, so there's lots of info out there. Search internet for more info!

Carol Moore 16:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc

That really doesn't seem to make much sense, and probably belongs together with Ouze Merham and apocrypha of that ilk. There's little doubt that if the Samson Option ever went down, Israel would probably target MANY Arab countries (not just the particular one that attacked or supported an attack against Israel), and probably Iran into the bargain -- but hardly Europe (and furthermore, I highly doubt whether Israel has the ability to cause nuclear winter, since it only has A-bombs, not H-bombs). AnonMoos 03:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

204.15.6.99 edits

It's certainly widely suspected that if Israel ever felt forced to use nukes, then it might nuke many countries (not just the single country most directly involved in a destabilizing attack on Israel); that's why it's called the "Samson Option" in the first place. However, what slightest evidence do you have that religious-war thinking has entered into the Israeli government and military's contingency plans on this issue? AnonMoos 20:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Samson Option and Mecca

As I have stated, there are unconfirmed rumors that Israel would use its nuclear weapons against Mecca and Medina as leverage against Islamic extremists who are not bound by the rules of international relations. Simply query the web and you can find a lot of discussion on this matter. Obviously the State of Israel would never show its hand to the world for having weapons of mass destruction by stating its deterency theory. However, an op-ed piece by Shimson Ben-Yosef, writing for the IsraelInsider, called the Samson Strategy, clearly spells out Israel's untold position with regards to Muslim terrorists. BTW, Israel probably does have, or least has the technology to manufacture hydrogen bombs.204.15.6.99 21:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Whatever -- There's not the slightest evidence that the Samson Option is a religiously-motivated policy on Israel's part, and as originally conceived the policy was aimed at Arab governments, not free-floating "Islamic extremists" (there were no significant Islamic terrorist groups until Hezbollah in 1983), and it's still true that there's no possible way that an Islamic terrorist group could obtain a nuclear weapon without some kind of support from some government -- which means that the policy is still ultimately directed at Arab and Islamic governments. AnonMoos 22:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I never said that Israel's deterence strategy was solely a religious based policy. It is simply a form of mutually assured destruction theory that has been proposed in dealing with rogue groups who would use weapons of mass destruction (and not necessarily nuclear) on Israeli soil. It is a plausible argument that these groups may erroneously believe that Israel cannot strike back with weapons of mass destruction against a small cadre of fighters who are not part of nation state. Also, your argument that a terrorist group needs support from a foreign govenment to obtain weapons of mass destruction, is simply wrong. While Hezbollah may arguably have the most sophistacated arms of such groups, they are not the only group to have their own resources and basic engineering to soon create weapons of mass destruction. In fact, the engineering and material used in the Trinity Project, for example, is by today's standards, unsophisticated. To illistrate my point, there was a Boy Scout by the name of David Hahn, who in 1995, in the suburbs of Detroit, was able to amass the basic material and technology to nearly create a critical mass of fissionable uranium. Furthermore, the basic blue prints for a crude atomic weapon have been found on the web many times. The question now becomes when, and not if, these groups aquire weapons of mass destruction how will governments restrain their use.

Secondly, I believe you are presuming that Israel's deterence theory originally conceived 40 years ago is set in stone. All nations with modern armaments always update their war plans to cover as many scenerios as realisticly can be conceived.204.15.6.99 14:15, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with you on a number of points, but the current wording of the article (which does not imply that the Sampson Option is part of a religious-war strategy) is acceptable... AnonMoos 16:53, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad to see we agree on something. This was an excellent debate.204.15.6.99 20:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Israel's Nuclear Monopoly

It has been suggested that this section be moved to "Israel and weapons of mass destruction". I have no problem with that.204.15.6.99 17:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Bad Idea, since many people do search specifically for this concept. I just noticed and undid the vandalism mentioning my name. Guess it's time to put a couple hours into beefing up this article and sourcing the heck out of it :-) But the "Israel and weapons of mass destruction" article SHOULD have at least a paragraph, if not a section, on the Samson Option.

Carol Moore 01:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc

Actually, 204.15.6.99 is only referring to the section he just recently added (and which is in fact less sepcifically relevant to the Samson Option than it is to the other article) -- he wasn't talking about merging this whole article. Meanwhile, based on your embarassingly public semi-meltdown of 30 May 2007 above, in which you basically uncritically regurgitated propaganda material from bigoted antisemitic hate websites, I would advise you stay far, far, away from this article, and confine your editing efforts to articles for which you are more suited to making a valuable contribution... AnonMoos 14:43, 22 September 2007 (UTC)