Talk:Simbi

Why create a page about a Kongo divinity (The name of this article is Simbi) and put up a statue of an Igbo divinity?

Hello,

Why create a page about a Kongo deity and put up a statue of an Igbo deity? Kongo culture is not Igbo culture, nor Yoruba culture, nor Mbundu culture, nor Téké culture, etc.

Here's what User: MiddleOfAfrica says to justify the photo of the Igbo statue (https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mami_Wata_Figure_MIA.jpg#mw-jump-to-license , https://collections.artsmia.org/art/111879/mami-wata-figure-igbo) he/she put up: "It's also a Bantu word" Can he/she tell us which other people from the Bantu language group call Mami wata (mermaid) "Simbi"? Here's what else he/she (User: MiddleOfAfrica) says: "Mami Wata is not solely an Igbo deity" Each people has its own name (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mami_Wata The Igbo name for Mami wata (mermaid) can be found in the article Mami Wata), At no point am I going to go to an Igbo divinity article and put a photo of a Yoruba divinity on the pretext that the same divinity is found among the Igbo. The photo of the statue is already present on the Mami Wata article and has no place on the Simbi article.

And to finish, he/she (User: MiddleOfAfrica) says: "This page is not about Kongo culture! It's about Simbi, which are a part of more cultures than just the Kongo. Mami Wata IS also a Kongo spirit." What a contradiction! Simbi is part of Kongo culture! This article bears the Kongo name "Simbi"! Kongos don't call sirens "Mami Wata". Respect people's culture! Kongo culture is not Yoruba culture, nor Igbo culture, nor Ewe culture, nor Mbundu culture, nor Luba culture, nor Swahili culture, nor Téké culture, nor Punu culture, and so on. JustSomeone08 (talk) 06:55, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay, let's break this all the way down. A simbi is not a deity. A simbi is a nature spirit. In Bantu tradition, bisimbi exist across hundreds of cultures, not just the Bakongo people. While they began as a part of Bantu spirituality in Central and Southern African, Bisimbi are revered by people of African descent throughout the diaspora as well. Thus, this page is about global simbi lore, which includes Mami Wata, who is also celebrated in Central Africa, including in the Democratic Republic of Congo. So no, it's not a contradiction to acknowledge both of those truths from a historical standpoint. You seem to be under the impression that the art has to be created by a Kongo person, but it doesn't because this page isn't about the Bakongo people; it's specifically about Bisimbi, which Mami Wata is. Regardless of the heritage of the African person who created the art, it is a representation of a Simbi, and that's what's relevant.

Source: https://fowler.ucla.edu/exhibitions/mami-wata-arts-for-water-spirits-in-africa-and-its-diasporas/

"A video of this event as well as sculptures and masks from the Ibibio and Igbo peoples of southeastern Nigeria illustrate Mami Wata’s role in their cultures, while numerous popular paintings from Democratic Republic of the Congo suggest how Mami Wata plays an important role in central African urban culture and spiritual practices." MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 13:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

For some reason, I wasn't given the option to reply to your recent comment, so I'll reply under this one.

Bantu tradition DOES in fact exist. Bantu-speaking people in Central, East, and Southern Africa share a lot of cultural similarities that are specific to them. We see this beyond language to spiritual beliefs, such as the existence of Nzambi across countless cultures (See Nyambe). Apart from the Bakongo people, Simbi is used by pretty much every ethnic group in the DRC from Ngombe to the Cilubá, some in the RoC, and even some in north-west Angola, such as the Ambundu and Ovimbundu. Also, those in the DRC who revere Mami Wata, including the Bakongo, also identify her as a Simbi. Literally. They even have art of her present at Simbi festivals and give offers to her. Some Congolese and Angolan people also identify some Dona Fish, or mermaids, as Simbi.

This article is about Simbi, period. Mata Wata is seen as a Simbi, and if you go to the Mami Wata page, it says that she is also called Mamba Muntu because that is one of the Central African names for her, along with Madame Poisson and La Sirène.

The statue in the photo is of Mami Wata. Mami Wata is venerated as a Simbi water spirit, so as long as the art is a representation of a Simbi and is respectful of the peoples who venerate Bisimbi, it should not matter the ethnic group in which the artist belongs.

And as for your Kianda comparison. Kianda isn't a Simbi. She's not a spirit. Kianda is an actual water deity. She is not just venerated. It's worshipped. That's the difference. In Angola and Southwestern DRC, where belief in Kianda exists the most, simbi are also venerated a part from her. That is why an image of Mami Wata wouldn't be appropriate for Kianda. They are not the same. MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 15:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

«In Bantu tradition, bisimbi exist across hundreds of cultures, not just the Bakongo people. While they began as a part of Bantu spirituality in Central and Southern African, Bisimbi are revered by people of African descent throughout the diaspora as well.» Bantu tradition doesn't exist! Just as the European tradition doesn't exist! Bantu is a linguistic group! give me the names of the other peoples in the Bantu language group who also call their spirit nature "Simbi/Kisimbi (pl: Bisimbi)"!

«Bisimbi are revered by people of African descent throughout the diaspora as well. Thus, this page is about global simbi lore, which includes Mami Wata, who is also celebrated in Central Africa, including in the Democratic Republic of Congo.» Apart from the Kongos, which people brought the name Simbi to the Americas? Apart from the Kongos, who call their nature spirit "Simbi"? Which Central African people call their water spirit, mermaids "Mami Wata"?

«So no, it's not a contradiction to acknowledge both of those truths from a historical standpoint. You seem to be under the impression that the art has to be created by a Kongo person, but it doesn't because this page isn't about the Bakongo people;» This article is about a Kongo cultural element, this article bears the Kongo name "Simbi" and yes it's contradictory to put a statue of a divinity of another people on the pretext that the same divinity is found among the Igbo! The photo of the statue is already featured in the Mami Wata article, which makes sense https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mami_Wata! So on the pretext that this divinity is also found among the Igbo, the photo should also be added to this article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kianda?