Talk:The Beatles

not one of the most; the most

{{editsemiprotected}} As common knowledge and categorical fact, it should more accurately read:

The Beatles were a rock and pop group formed in Liverpool, England in 1960 who became the most commercially successful and critically acclaimed band in the history of popular music.

This distinction corrects the inaccuracy of comparing The Beatles commercial success as equivilant to any other band.

Please change:

The Beatles were a rock and pop group formed in Liverpool, England in 1960 who became one of the most commercially successful and critically acclaimed bands in the history of popular music.

to

The Beatles were a rock and pop group formed in Liverpool, England in 1960 who became the most commercially successful and critically acclaimed band in the history of popular music.

 Not done: Welcome and thanks for wanting to improve this article. That sort of change requires a reliable source to back up the claim. Celestra (talk) 13:21, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Can you name a more commercially successful and critically acclaimed band? --Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:18, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

While "critical acclaim" can be difficult to measure, it would seem to me that commercial success would be a matter of objective fact. ARE they the most commercially successful band? If so, the article should say so. Carlo (talk) 18:28, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Still need a reliable source... (John User:Jwy talk) 20:37, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I personally believe that the Beatles were the most commercially successful band of all time. But I would have a high bar set of expectations on allowing that statement. Even if you could find it in, say, Rolling Stone, I would want a more general recognition of it. It's just very, very difficult to say that anything is "the most" anything without stirring up all kinds of ruckus. As it is, the current version is a significant improvement over what it looked like just a couple of months ago, where the Beatles' greatness was not even mentioned in the first paragraph. But if you can find multiple, solid, sources, I'd be open to possibly changing that from "one of" to "the". Good luck! Unschool 00:08, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The BBC is quoting Wikipedia.--andreasegde (talk) 17:12, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I was just about to change the lead to reflect that the Beatles are the most commercially successful and critically acclaimed band in the history of popular music, but then I realized that this may not be true simply because they haven't been touring stadiums for decades like the Rolling Stones have. Those tours have garnered the Rolling Stones a heck of a lot of commercial success. I don't know if it makes up for the Beatles large advantage in record sales or not. It's also difficult to measure critical acclaim. They had their share of bad reviews. The New York Times famously panned Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. Magical Mystery Tour also received a lot of negative press. It may be better to leave the lead at "one of," although I agree that it doesn't seem to go far enough. Perhaps we can say that they've sold more records than any other band in the history of popular music? That seems pretty well established. Clashwho (talk) 18:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

The Beatles were one of the most sucessful bands in history as far as record selling statistics is concerned, but not the most successful. This is too broad a title to award one band, unless of course there is an overwhealming amount of evidence that supports this claim. Still, the title is extrememely vague. Maybe make it more specific? The Beatles Fan (talk) 22:58, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

The Beatles have more number one singles, and albums then anybody. They have sold more albums then anybody by far. They have more singles in the top 10 more then any other band. They always top "best bands" or whatever of all time lists. "YEsterday" is the most covered song of all time, by far. And when they were touring, they sold out baseball stadiums and football stadiums years before the rolling stones could do anything like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 (talk) 23:00, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Rock Band: the Beatles

should we add that to the first paragraph? The game should have a whole paragraph connected to the game's page in wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GastroTV (talk • contribs) 00:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The first paragraph? Hell, why not the first sentence! Joking aside though, I really think this is a good point; there's a lot in the Lead that is more momentous than Rock Band being released in 2009, yet it does underline the "still relevant today" point made by that CNN article, a point not yet stated in the Lead. I shall add something at the end of the middle para and see what people think. PL290 (talk) 09:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

There's no doubt it's big. The New York Times goes as far as calling it a "cultural watershed...one that may prove only slightly less influential than the band’s famous appearance on “The Ed Sullivan Show” in 1964." (!)--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:43, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The NYT game reviews tend to be hyperbolic in general when describing games they like. I think (hope) the statement is meant to be taken in the context of the gaming world. I don't think anyone with perspective feels it's such a monumental moment -- I doubt 72 million people are buying the game, or even have awareness of it. Opineapple (talk) 03:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Beatles record sales

Who has altered the info about the record sales, changing it to read that the Beatles sold "between 600 million and 1 billion records". Is this just a cosmic coincidence that this change has been made at the same time as the ridiuculous claims by some in this website that Michael Jackson has now sold "750 million" records. Isn't it amazing that his (Jackson's) sales, which were listed at 250 million before he died, have now magically increased by 500 million? In any event, according to the Guiness Book of Records, which is always quoted on this website as a solid source, the Beatles record sales passed 1 billion in 1985. Now the revisionists have altered the numbers, quoting some obscure magazine article, to magically reduce the Beatles sales to 600 million. Who oversees and permits this garbage? Put the article back to the way it was and leave well enough alone, or does the person who edited the article know more than Guiness? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.61.189.14 (talk) 19:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I see EMI have updated their site (still dated 2005) to remove the sales figures that were being used for the "one billion" cite. Citation details of Guinness/other reliable source for "one billion" anyone? (Assuming that's forthcoming, does anyone think we need to say "between 600 million and 1 billion"?) PL290 (talk) 22:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's a recent article from Billboard giving numbers and charts showing the group's sales since Nielsen Soundscan started tracking sales in the U.S. in 1991. [1] Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 18:31, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The material in the Lead on sales figures has now been substantially changed by this edit. IMO it's potentially an improvement but I suspect some of it may have to go if it remains unsourced. Also I notice it no longer gives the UK stats. PL290 (talk) 12:49, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I've pruned and formatted it somewhat, added a cite, and reinstated the UK bit. Re. "1 billion sales", it's now three weeks and no one's found a source, so it looks as though it will have to go. PL290 (talk) 17:44, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I believe the 1 billion figure comes from Guinness World Records. Previous editions always had it in; I don't know if they still do. But I think they were only repeating what EMI had estimated.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:05, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe they've stopped saying it because EMI have stopped saying it. (I couldn't see it in a copy of the 2010 edition of Guinness World Records I came across the other day.) I've now removed it from the article. I considered reinstating this "600 million" cite that used to be in there, but to me it doesn't seem like a good idea, because (a) there's evidently dissent about the worldwide unit sales figure, and at least some indication that it might be a billion (previous EMI source), so why state a dubious figure that might anyway be way too low, and (b) the source is not that strong or clear: it's just an "about" footnote saying what Apple Records is in a Rock Band news article. I propose we leave it out unless/until the true figure from a WP:RS emerges. PL290 (talk) 07:51, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

1970s?

Since The Beatles had hits into the year 1970, should they be categorized as a "1970s music group"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.225.209.234 (talk) 19:46, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

The answer is a firm "no" as they only recorded only one new song in the 1970s, "I Me Mine" on 3 January 1970 without John. Steelbeard1 (talk) 20:58, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

The Long and Winding Lead

It's been suggested that the Lead is far too long. The obvious reaction is, well, there's a lot to say. But I've been thinking the same recently, and actually I think the middle para may be trying to say too much (spoiled by too many "overdubs", perhaps?). The Lead should summarize the article but that doesn't mean it has to tell a short story of the entire history like it's currently doing. I'm going to have a think about it and will probably make some edits to try and make the main points without it getting so long. PL290 (talk) 07:49, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think all of the info in the lead should be there, but maybe the wording could be tightened up. And this may be the best section heading I've seen. Deserted Cities (talk) 16:09, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

:) By now you're looking at the shortened version but I agree it's still too much. I've now chopped out some further unsourced figures and the excessive Rolling Stone mentions. The key figures already demonstrate the band's success without all that. PL290 (talk) 16:50, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Yea, this was way too long. Deserted Cities (talk) 16:55, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Paragraphs?

It's like reading a telephone book.--andreasegde (talk) 10:19, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry, my bad. Someone rightly pointed out that we'd let the article become characterized by the dreaded "stubby paragraphs" but I think some recent changes I made took it to the other extreme and made it too dense. It's a fine balance. I went through this morning and added half a dozen or so para breaks so hopefully that helps. PL290 (talk) 11:55, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Cites / References

The References section should list authors in alpha sequence. For each author, the sequence is based on the year of publication. That sequence helps readers who are referring to abbreviated citations that include the author's surname and year of publication. For authors, like Harry, who have two or more books published in the same year, I believe the convention is to add an alpha character to the year:

• Harry, Bill (2000a). The Beatles Encyclopedia: Revised and Updated. London: Virgin Publishing. ISBN 978-0-7535-0481-9.
• Harry, Bill (2000b). The John Lennon Encyclopedia. London: Virgin Publishing. ISBN 0-7355-0404-9. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: checksum (help)
• Harry, Bill (2002). The Paul McCartney Encyclopedia. Virgin Books. ISBN 0-7535-0716-1.
• Harry, Bill (2003). The George Harrison Encyclopedia. Virgin Books Ltd. ISBN 0-7535-0822-2.

Then, in the associated cites, use the year with the alpha when necessary:

Harry (2000a), p. 67.

Harry (2000b), p. 107.

Harry (2003), p. 3

There are other ways to do this—they vary based on the citation style being used—but this is one accepted way and none that I know of use the style this page has now where the title is included in the citation.

I would have made these changes myself, but the article changes every 5 seconds and it's difficult to get a word in edgewise. — John Cardinal (talk) 20:38, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

This suggestion makes sense to me—there are indeed various citation styles, and there doesn't seem to be a WP guideline on the aspect in question, but this is a recognized style so let's use it. I've gone ahead and made the change. PL290 (talk) 07:44, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Good. Regarding citation columns, see Template:Reflist#Browser_support_for_columns. — John Cardinal (talk) 13:06, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Ah, thanks, I'll take a look. PL290 (talk) 13:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Years active

A while ago, I proposed changing the dates of The Beatles activity as a band to 1960-1970, 1994-1996. This way it would include the dates of Anthology, in which they recorded and released new music.

Some are opposed to this idea, because the dates of the Beatles' activity is almost "sacred", but the first two years (1960 and 61) are included and these are years before the Beatles became the band they are today.

When any other band reforms and releases new music, it is considered a reunion. There is no doubt that The Beatles did just that. Not only did the three surviving members utilize archival music from John, but they recorded and released two new songs under the name of "The Beatles" which were promoted as new songs.

I ask that you as the Wikipedia community reconsider the dates given for time active. I firmly believe that the reunion dates shouldb e included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CDaly (talk • contribs) 19:09, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Oppose per previous consensus after much discussion, and references to The Beatles' own views on this; I see no reason to resurrect this carcase of a debate because no new material is being brought to it. Rodhullandemu 19:13, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Anthology was a post-breakup documentary project by ex-members. There was no second breakup in 1996. PL290 (talk) 19:21, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Oppose Lennon recorded the songs in the1970s, and they were used between 1994-1996. This kind of juggling could mean The Beatles activity as a band was from 1960 to 1996. The partnership was legally dissolved in 1970. So said the judge, as Maxwell held the gavel above his head.--andreasegde (talk) 23:21, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - as per the above. A possible compromise might be something like Led Zeppelin has:

1960-1970
(Anthology: 1994-1996)

(John User:Jwy talk) 23:30, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Yesterday, today and forever:

Officially: The Beatles 1962-1970

You can read this information on all encyclopedias

(Wikipedia it's what? An encyclopedia or an revisionist site controlled by the Mafia???)

--Roujan (talk) 13:11, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

This would be great:

1960-1970 (Anthology: 1994-1996) —Preceding unsigned comment added by CDaly (talk • contribs) 15:40, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Beatles Record Sales

This subject should not be the topic of any controversy. The Guiness Book of World Records, since the 1986 edition (in other words, for some 23 years), has listed the Beatles worldwide record sales as exceeding 1 billion since 1985. The fact that it is not in the 2009 edition of Guiness means nothing. That edition doesn't mention their 20 number one singles in the USA, or their domination of the record charts in 1964. That doesn't mean that those facts have changed. If one looks at the 2008 Guiness book, it talks about the Red Hot Chili Peppers as having 'x' number of number one singles on the "modern Billboard chart". It appears that Guiness is appealing to a younger audience by featuring material about newer artists. That is fine, but, as I said earlier, it doesn't change the facts. Look at the heading 'Beatles record sales' in this very article. It still quotes the 1 billion figure. I'm just trying to understand the reason for someone altering the website to remove a reference to a fact that hasn't changed since 1985, with no valid factual foundation for such a change. If one has any doubts, then write to Guiness and ask them if anything has changed. So, unless and until whomever altered the website has clear and convincing evidence to the contrary, then the number should be restored. Exercise a bit of common sense. There could be a hundred reasons why EMI doesn't have it on their website now. What the person who changed the article (who is it, by the way, and on what authourity?) would have us believe is that EMI is now saying this: "Gee, everybody, we told the Guiness Book of Records people back in 1985 that the Beatles worlwide record sales exceeded 1 billion, but now, 24 years later, we discovered that we made a mistake and the sales are really only 600 million. Sorry about that." Please! Put the number back the way it was and leave well enough alone, and spare us the revisionist history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.61.189.14 (talk) 19:19, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Good topic

I think that this article may be part of a potentially Good topic consisting of the group and its members. Does anyone else agree?--Edge3 (talk) 03:09, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

External link to concert database

Would a database of The Beatles' concert performances be worthy of an external link - e.g. www.songkick.com/artists/417271-beatles? As I work for Songkick I can't add it myself (and the last thing I want to be is a self-promoting corporate shill) but I'm curious to hear what the community thinks (which is why I'm asking the same question across quite a few talk pages). I suspect it may qualify under point #3 of the ELYES policy, but I'm far from certain. As precedents, both Shirley Manson and Glastonbury Festival have similar links added by contributors. Michaelorland (talk) 10:28, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Sadly no, imo: point #3 of WP:ELYES relates to "accurate material". If it was a complete list of Beatles concerts, published by a reliable source, then I think it would be a good candidate for an external link. But it's not complete ("See full gigography (981 past concerts)"???) and it fails point #4 of WP:ELMAYBE, "Sites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources" because it's editable by users ("add an entry" link) so the sources are not known to be knowledgeable. PL290 (talk) 11:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

We've centalized the disscution about songkick.com at the External_links/Noticeboard, See this discussion. Feel free to comment on this link suitability there. thanks--Hu12 (talk) 19:44, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Tense? and Awards

"The Beatles were a rock band..." - is this the accurate tense? "The Beatles was a rock band". The Beatles also describes four guys, but it IS one band - singular.TheHYPO (talk) 07:56, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I've had this same argument before, TheHYPO, and naught came of it. BTW, it's not British English to say "were" for a singular entity, but some people get confused with the rare exceptions like, "The police were here", and "The team were here". It's just lazy. Oh well...--andreasegde (talk) 16:31, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

In addition, why is there no section (or subarticle) on awards? They won the academy award for Let It Be according to the article, and they are categorized as Grammy winners, so there must be awards to speak of, but that important recognition is missing from the wiki article... TheHYPO (talk) 07:56, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

On your first point, "were" is correct because the article is written in British English. Regarding awards, that's a very good point. They should be gathered in an "Awards" section or suchlike, somewhere after the history. I'll look at adding that later today unless someone beats me to it. PL290 (talk) 08:14, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello friend I don't know how much The Beatles won Awards all over the world, but here a small list

UK

15 Ivor Novello Awards:

March 3, 1964 : 5 Awards

July 13, 1965 : 5 Awards

July 12, 1966 : 3 Awards

March 25, 1967 : 2 Awards

And on March 23, 1964 The Beatles receive 2 awards from the Duke of Edinburgh.

You can find all this information here. [[2]]

I tried to verify all these informations on the official site ( Ivor Novello).[[3]]...but I have not found a historic...But these informations are real, you can find it on Beatles' Books...(it's easy to verify).

4 Brit Awards. [[4]]

- 1977 : < Outstanding Contribution >

- 1977 : Won Brit Award category Best British Group

- 1977 : Won Brit Award category Best British Album for "Sgt Pepper's Loneley Heart Club Band"

- 1983 : Won Brit Award category Outstanding Contribution

- 1996 : 1 Q Awards : Best Reissue/Compilation The Beatles - "Anthology" [[5]]

Japan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Gold_Disc_Award

- 1988 : 1 award

- 1994 : 1 award

- 2001 : 2 awards : Artist Of The Year et Pop Album Of The Year : The Beatles '1'. [[6]]

- 2004 : 2 awards : Rock Album of the Year : LET IT BE...NAKED et Music Video of the Year : THE BEATLES ANTHOLOGY. [[7]]

Germany

[[8]]

6 <Bravo Otto>

- 1965 : Silberner Bravo Otto

- 1966 : Goldener Bravo Otto

- 1967 : Silberner Bravo Otto

- 1968 : Silberner Bravo Otto

- 1969 : Silberner Bravo Otto

- 1970 : Goldener Bravo Otto

- 1965 : 2 Grammy Awards (Best New Artist und A Hard Day’s Night)

- 1967 : 2 Grammy Awards (Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band)

- 1970 : 1 Oscar for the film < Let It Be > in the category of < Best Original Score >

- 1996 : 1 Grammy Award (Best Music Video The Beatles Anthology)

- 1997 : 2 Grammy Awards (Free As A Bird)

- 2008 : 2 Grammy Awards (LOVE)

USA

[[9]] and [[10]]

- 1 TRUSTEES AWARD : Awarded: 1972.

- 14 GRAMMY Hall Of Fame Award.

- 17 Grammy Awards

- 1 Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame

- 1 National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences Presidents' Award

- 1 The Beatles' Academy Awards

- 3 Grammys (26/2/97) < The Beatles won Grammys tonight for Best Pop Performance By a Duo or Group, Best Music Video: Short Form, both for "Free As a Bird" (the song and video, respectively) and Best Music Video: Long Form, for "The Beatles Anthology" video set, all three categories they were nominated in.>

--Roujan (talk) 15:18, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I've added an Awards section but I think a new List article along the lines of List_of_awards_received_by_Paul_McCartney would be the appropriate place for all the detail. The Grammy Awards table I added is already probably too much for this article. Let's summarize the awards here in narrative form. PL290 (talk) 16:09, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok....but seriously, i think it's impossible to count all the awards won by the Beatles. (If you count all the awards like for example awards given by the magazines.) ( I corrected the link concerning : <4 Brit Awards> )

--Roujan (talk) 21:13, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I've now created a stub article List of awards received by The Beatles for that level of detail. I've summarized the main ones in the Awards section of this article but if people think more need including then please add them. PL290 (talk) 21:29, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello...Ok i can give information on The Beatles, but seriously for me it's impossible to write article because my English is too poor. ( and I do not want you laughing at me ...hahaha)

So, if you want i can only give you information...are you agree?

--Roujan (talk) 23:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Despite A Career Of Only 8 Years - 1962/1970 - The Beatles Became The Best-Selling In The History Of The Twentieth Century.

[[11]]

November 9, 2008 in Monte-Carlo : The 20th Annual World Music Awards.

Ringo Starr received at the 2008 WMAs a Diamond Award on behalf of legendary group, The Beatles, for selling more records than any other recording-artists in the history of the music industry.

--Roujan (talk) 13:58, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

It was ten years, but thanks a lot for the link. That should shut up the people who question the validity of their success. :) --andreasegde (talk) 16:26, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello my friend

Firstly : Excuse me for my basic English (i'm a French boy)

Concerning the duration of the Beatles' career, you write: < It was ten years >...so i suppose you consider 1960-1970...Why 1960?...I suppose it's because John, Paul and George chose the name < Beatles > in 1960.

Is it for this reason?

If yes, you can also say a lot of another things: Example

1 - The Beatles : It was 12 years...(1958-1970)

Oh yeah, John, Paul and George played together for the first time in 1958.

But another person can say 8 years 1962- 1970, because Ringo was incorporated in 1962 (and without Ringo it's not the Beatles).

Like you see, we have already three hypotheses: But why in 1973, E.M.I released two double Complilation entitled: < The Beatles 1962-1966 > and < The Beatles 1967-1970 >

Simply because they released the first record of the Beatles in 1962 and the last in 1970.

So i think it's very important to be precise and make the difference between the professional career and the rest.

The professional career of the Beatles, it's : 1962-1970.

The career of the Beatles, or if you prefer the active career it's another thing. (Even the fans of the Beatles do not agree. (remember the three hypotheses at the beginning of my post)

--Roujan (talk) 22:18, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Beatles : Monuments, Statues

Usa [[12]]

Fab Four sculpture makes a giant impact on the Texan skyline August

Mongolia [[13]]

Mongolia To Erect Monument To The Beatles

Russia [[14]]

Beatles Monument to be Officially Open in Yekaterinburg

[[15]]

Beatles Monument to Appear in Samara

Poland [[16]]

Street in Poland named after The Beatles

Scotland [[17]]

Plaque commemorates early Beatles’ gig

Peru [[18]]

John Lennon : Beloved in Peru too

Cuba [[19]]

Once-shunned Lennon now feted in communist Cuba

--Roujan (talk) 23:21, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Reference style

It's been suggested at FAC that the article could use a different style for references. As we all know, there are numerous citation styles, and not just one acceptable one, but the one suggested appears to me to be very neat and I'm quite attracted by the idea of using it here. It will take a bit of work to make the change, but first I want to see if there are any objections in principle to this switch. Please see Reference style in the FAC discussion. I suggest we establish here on the article talk page whether there are any issues or objections so please fire away with any thoughts below. PL290 (talk) 18:30, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I like it (the Harvard style) and may be able to help convert should things head that way. (John User:Jwy talk) 19:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I am OK with using the Harvard template though I am not a big advocate. On the positive side, they help keep citations consistent and they create links between the Notes section and the References section. On the negative side, they clutter up the article with templates that aren't as easy to read as the short-format text, and the link between the Notes section and the References section isn't that important: the average reader can figure it out in short order. Also, on a personal note, the Harvard output style isn't my favorite.

I am surprised that the FAC comments include BS like the ref naming inconsistency. When I edit, I try to fix things like that, but come on! Readers don't see that stuff and if there is no name conflict, the article works properly. It' snot a battle worth fighting and my personal preference is to make them consistent anyway, but I think FAC reviewers should ease up on the trivia. — John Cardinal (talk) 19:49, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

As you say though, when you edit, you try to fix things like that. The goal of FAC (or any review process) is not just assessment but improvement; I personally have no objection whatsoever to making every possible improvement to an article, however small, while there remains anything that can be improved. Let's be grateful to reviewers for spending the time to identify possible improvements and log them on the review page. PL290 (talk) 20:51, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Grateful? In general, sure, but I still think REF element names are irrelevant to an FAC review. When mentioned in the context of the review they have a "change it or fail the review" threat--intended or not--that places undue weight on something that has no influence on the visible content of the page. — John Cardinal (talk) 21:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I suppose that could happen but in this case I feel there was no hint of any such threat. Anyway, if you still feel differently, I respect your opinion and per your edit summary, let's agree to disagree. PL290 (talk) 21:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I brought this up at FAC. These are not egregious issues— that is, I would not fail the article for FA —but simply ways to make the referencing a bit cleaner. The article does not use parenthetical (Harvard) style, nor am I advocating such a change. The article uses a mix of standard and shortened footnotes, and I find this non-aesthetic. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 23:21, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I agree about the mix of short and long footnotes, and I've fixed all the "cite book" cases. I was working on the ref naming issue when User:DocKino started making copyedits, which caused edit conflicts, and he/she refused to let me finish. It's very hard to make systematic fixes like that while other people are editing and so I give up. I leave it to DocKino to finish the job. — John Cardinal (talk) 06:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

What a ignorance

After hearing "Strawberry Fields Forever", Beach Boys leader Brian Wilson abandoned all attempts to compete with the band.

This is a myth!!! Smile started recording in may of 1966. The problems began well before, and was being aborted well before that Sgt. Peppers relization.... Wrong and liar this information. Wikipedia ia a serious encyclopedia! I think I will report this. (Mago266 (talk) 04:06, 3 November 2009 (UTC))

By no means a "liar", this information. However, I've rephrased it to be even more precise...and, perhaps, more poignant. If you still think this is all a myth, I suggest you spend some time with the sources: [20], [21]. DocKino (talk) 05:07, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Sourcing and paraphrasing

To create an excellent article, it's important to be able to read sources carefully, distill the significant information, and convey that information clearly and concisely. The idea that the description of Brian Wilson as "creatively ambitious" is not well supported could only come from someone who is not familiar with this basic, important process. Here are some relevant phrases concerning Wilson from just one of the cited sources, the BBC article:

• "musical genius"
• "instilled [with] a great sense of competitiveness"
• "continued pushing his own boundaries both physical and mental"
• "Together with session musicians, [Wilson and his collaborator, Van Dyke Parks] worked on a concept album mixing doo-wop, jazz, choral music, and the use of bizarre instruments including whistles and animal sounds. The recording techniques involved revolutionary stacked voices, ornate instrumentation and state-of-the-art multi-tracking"

This source also clearly supports the "friendly rival" description. The other major source for the passage, Gaines's Beach Boys biography, just as clearly offers the same support. DocKino (talk) 06:15, 3 November 2009 (UTC)