Template talk:Infobox company

Category in Key People Parameter

Could a category be added under the key people parameter of the company's article? For example, the category Lockheed people in the Lockheed Corporation article. Potentially something along the lines of: "See also: Lockheed people". It might be a good way of ensuring sufficient coverage of individuals without the list becoming too long. It seems particularly useful for defunct, but long established companies that have had a lot of notable executives or other leaders over the years. –Noha307 (talk) 02:27, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Categories are generally avoided outside of their designated place at the end of the article, not least because it is just a less helpful, commentless, alphabetical list of articles. I think a section with key executives -- possibly ordered chronologically, sourced, and with the persons' respective job titles -- plus a link to that section from |key_people= would serve you better in this case. Regards, IceWelder [✉] 09:07, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Publicly-traded and a division

What should be the |type= for these type of companies? Example: IDBI Bank (Public and subsidiary in this case) — DaxServer (talk) 11:11, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

I would just say Publicly traded subsidiary. I think per the documentation, since there is one "owner", it should be in |parent= instead of |owner=. MB 17:18, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for both! — DaxServer (talk) 11:27, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Legal Entity Identifier

What about Legal Entity Identifier? It is a widely used unique global identifier for legal entities. --Jklamo (talk) 01:36, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Add logo_upright parameter

Right now the only way to adjust the size of logos displayed in the infobox is to set a fixed px width, which is against WP image use policy (WP:THUMBSIZE: Except with very good reason, do not use px (e.g. |thumb|300px), which forces a fixed image width measured in pixels, disregarding the user's image size preference setting). Module:InfoboxImage has an upright parameter which allows images to be scaled by a multiplier of the user's preference for thumbnail sizes. Infobox templates like Template:Infobox information appliance already implement it as one of their logo parameters; I recommend this template do the same. DigitalIceAge (talk) 03:54, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

 Done. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 23:56, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! DigitalIceAge (talk) 03:33, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Please add worker representation parametre

I'm resurrecting this discussion from a year ago to argue that a "worker_representation" field should be added. This would allow a link to the articles of trade unions active in the company, an important part of every company's governance. The corresponding field has already been added to WikiData. Zarasophos (talk) 22:52, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

(Notified at WP:Organized Labor) I personally agree that the parameter should be added, both because it is useful information in an infobox and because it is already in WikiData. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 23:34, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

(via notification at WikiProject Organized Labour) I support this change. We should be specific that this is for trade union representation and not works councils (which are present in many EU companies), since legally works councils are bodies of co-determination, not bodies to represent workers' interests. I'm not so in favour of a specific threshold (eg a union must have collective bargaining status) since there are many anti-union companies where union members exist, but are denied collective bargaining. I think in cases where there is no collective bargaining it should be about whether or not sourcing exists regarding union representation; so, for example in Starbucks where there is, as yet, no collective bargaining but there are specific, widespread sources pointing to unionisation. We also need to acknowledge that in some countries, there will be more than one union present in this parameter (eg this will frequently be the case in Spain, Italy and France). Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 23:51, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Agreed that Wikipedia:Verifiability is key here and that we should use coverage in independent reliable sources as criterion rather than specific thresholds.

There is also WP:NPOV to consider though, as another core policy - specifically WP:DUE ("Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to [...] prominence of placement"). To construct an extreme example based on yours: If employees at a single Starbucks location start an unionization attempt today and it gets mentioned in the local newspaper tomorrow, that still doesn't mean that the infobox in Starbucks should be updated to promote that effort. Per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, infoboxes are meant "to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article"; including information there means visually promoting it over most of the rest of the information in the article. (That's also why "it is already in WikiData" is not an argument here - so are many other Wikidata properties that we do not include in Wikipedia infoboxes with good reason.) Regards, HaeB (talk) 09:50, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't think you'd have anything but heated agreement from everyone here. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 11:49, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support When the workers have an organization then that fact is as fundamental to the identity of the company as many of the other parameters in the infobox. We should note this in the infobox. I came here from Wikipedia:WikiProject Organized Labour, which discussed this issue. Bluerasberry (talk) 14:13, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Also, there still seems to be controversial elements such as should this include works councils or not. Perhaps more than one new parameter is needed? Also, how do we make said parameter(s) global and not to just fill the needs of one or two or a few countries' companies? This is a case of "You tell me." I will be glad to add consensus-based parameters that are presented in the correct format, preferably in this template's sandbox. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 22:56, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Paine Ellsworth:, thanks for the comment. The only problem, as far a I see it, is that some countries (Anglophile ones) use a model of per-company trade unions, while others (for example mainland Europe) use works councils. I therefore see basically two options:

1. Add two parametres, one "works_council" and one "trade_union". "works_council" would allow yes/no and would appear as something along the lines of "Works council: Present", while "trade_union" would allow "Example company trade union".

2. Add one parametre "worker_representation", which would appear as "Worker representation" and allow both manually putting in "Works Council" for countries utilising works councils - or not, if we don't want to do this, as Goldsztajn (talk · contribs) suggested - and "Example company trade union" for Anglophile ones. This is my favoured option. I'm not at all familiar with template coding, but I think it should look something like this: (commented out because I don't know how to put code in a comment)

What does everyone else think? Zarasophos (talk) 23:26, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Placed your test code in this template's sandbox and created a new section on its test cases page. I realize that this parameter(s) needs to evolve; it must grow to a certain level of usefulness before it can "go live". Any and all feel free to improve upon the sandbox and test cases trials. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 00:59, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Comment: There's a simple legal difference; works councils practice codetermination (Mitbestimmung) or in US English act as a labor-management committee. In no jurisdiction is there any requirement that a works council have as worker representatives those from trade unions; and at the national level outside of central and northern Europe works councils generally play a fairly limited, if non-existent role. It is misleading to indicate that a body which contains representatives of management is a "worker representative" body, a works council is a workplace representative body with worker representatives. National laws across the EU regarding works councils are quite varied (notwithstanding the EU directive on European Works Councils). However, trade unions are a far more universally (globally) applicable form of worker representation. So, I would be more inclined to support two separate parameters: one for works councils and one for trade union representation. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 11:15, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I support the first option, two different parameters, however I would use "labor union" or "union" instead of "trade union", since in the US trade union has a connotation like craft unionism of being particular to a trade while other variants such as general and industrial unions can exist. I also wonder if there's some way we can include the level of worker control from no say to full say, apart from discussing it in the company or specific union article. Part of this could be adding a worker co-operative field for either the "type" or "ownership" parameter. Also, I'm a software developer and while I don't have much experience with Wiki templates when we've got a solid plan I can take a shot at implementing it. TheTranarchist (talk) 22:00, 8 February 2022 (UTC)TheTranarchist

This all sounds very good to me, so I'll vote for a "works_council" and a "union" field as well as adding a "cooperative" to "ownership". Also, thanks for offering to take a view at the template - I'd try to do it myself, but for some reason my keyboard chose the two months a year I get really focused on editing Wikipedia to suddenly not have a working | button anymore... Zarasophos (talk) 22:37, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

To editor Zarasophos: if you have an "insert" section underneath your edit screen, and you can change it to "Wiki markup", you'll find a pipe among those symbols you can use. Hopefully, this helps a bit. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 23:29, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't agree with the statement about there being a trade union per company in some countries, if that is meant to mean a single union. In the US, for example, an airline can have workers represented by a pilots union, flight attendants union, one for mechanics, another for ramp/baggage workers, customer service people, and probably a few more. The union parameter would have to be "Union (s)" and there should be some guidance on how to use it - e.g. limit it to a few of the most significant unions. This IB can already be on the long side. MB 00:45, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. Also consider this current high profile case about a labor conflict in the US that was at its core about a union trying to bring some positions under their control that were already unionized - but with a different union. Regards, HaeB (talk) 09:50, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Given the complexities and misunderstandings that this discussion has revealed so far (e.g. the proposer's erroneous assumption that "some countries (Anglophile ones) use a model of per-company trade unions, while others (for example mainland Europe) use works councils"), I would suggest taking a step back and working on the following:

• This proposal (as any new parameter proposal, really) should include not just the new parameter name(s), but also a draft definition/guidance text for each, for the template documentation. (Compare e.g. the documentation of the key_people field in the current version of the template, which is likewise about an "important part of every company's governance".)
• Provide a few examples of existing company articles (from several different countries) stating what the value of the new parameter(s) there might be if the proposal becomes implemented.

I would also recommend trying to avoid approaching this with too much of an activist mindset ("yay labor rights! Let's do it!", even though these are important rights affecting most of us personally). This is a very widely used infobox template and I sense that some folks may underestimate the downsides of ill-defined parameters. E.g. over at Infobox musical artist there is now consensus that a field added many years ago has caused a great deal of confusion and unnecessary disagreement and should be removed.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 09:50, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't see an erroneous assumption, I see someone trying to express what is a difference between trade unionism in continental Europe (which has mostly retained industry (ie sectoral) bargaining) versus models in the Anglo world, where company/enterprise bargaining predominates and how that (a quite correct observation) affects trade union structures. But it is reasonable (and necessary) to ensure that a parameter such as this does not become an alphabet soup. One initial guidance might be that unions listed should be those which predominate in the country of origin of the company; this can be modified in certain cases, where you have a company like Nestlé whose unionised workforce in Switzerland (represented by UNIA) is far smaller than in Germany (NGG) or the UK (GMB). It might also be useful to include the appropriate global union federation that workers in that company are covered by where a global framework agreement exists (could this be a third parameter?). I wouldn't want to put an explicit number limit, but would use a text that indicates something along the lines of "limit to predominant, most representative union(s), with more than three (four?) unions having justifiable grounds for inclusion on the basis of sourcing". As for the case of airlines, this is not that complex, what is most common are three unions: pilots, cabin crew and engineers (mechanics, machinists etc). FWIW ground crew, baggage handlers etc are rarely employees of airlines (rather outsourced, subcontracted employees of airport operators). Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 11:49, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

After reading all this, I would suggest a single parameter much as is used in science iboxes to indicate species and so forth. If there is a simple, one- or two-entry situation, then the parameter can be used to show them; however, if the list is long, convoluted or complex, then the parameter can be used to indicate "See article text". And all the details can be included in that article's content (as opposed to making the ibox ten miles long). P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 23:14, 10 February 2022 (UTC)