User talk:Jakew

• Archive 1 (September, 2006)
• Archive 2 (August, 2007)
• Archive 3 (January, 2008)
• Archive 4 (May, 2009)

Thanks

...for catching this error on my part. Blackworm (talk) 14:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Invitation

Hi, Jake. I added a section to Abd's userspace essay User:Abd/Majority POV-pushing, and I would be interested in your comments on it. I invite you to participate in discussion on the talk page. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 13:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : XXXIX (May 2009)

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This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 02:57, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Help adding logo to infobox

Hi Jake,

I'm new to this and would really appreciate some help understanding how to add a second image or logo to an existing infobox. The infobox is located on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renegade_(band) page. It's using "{{Infobox musical artist" now. That infobox is perfect, but I would like to add the band's logo above the picture. I tried adding the following line: "| logo = File:Logoname.png", but it didn't even appear on the page. I tried using the same "| Img = logoname.png" code style that's being used for the image, but that didn't work either. Can you please tell me how to do that? Thanks very much --Warriorboy85 (talk) 23:50, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Replied on your talk page. Jakew (talk) 08:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi Again Jake,

Yes that helps a little. I realize there's no image yet, but I need to know how to add another image or logo parameter to that infobox so I can add another image. If you take a look at the infobox at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_disc you'll see that it has both a provision for a logo and an image. That's what I want to do. I suspect that means I have to add a logo parameter to the infobox I'm using, but I don't know how. Can you tell me how to add the parameter? Thanks for all your help. --Warriorboy85 (talk) 15:38, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi Again Jake,

You've been very helpful and I thank you very much! --Warriorboy85 (talk) 23:22, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

behaviour, influence on circumcision-related articles, and possible conflict of interest

There is an ongoing discussion about you Jake on Garycomputergeek's talkpage: User talk:Garycompugeek. Avi is doing a stern job of fighting your corner which I think is wrong. You should be the one answering the accusations. That is why I have transferred the discussion here. I have also added my opinion. Tremello22 (talk) 21:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for notifying me, Tremello22. However, I have actually been monitoring the discussions at Gary's (and, to a lesser extent, Blackworm's) talk page with interest. On the 4th of June I invited Gary to discuss his concerns with me here. He has not done so, for reasons that only he knows, but has instead repeated his claims in several talk pages. I am disappointed by this, to say the least, but my invitation to Gary remains open. Though I may change my mind on this, my present feeling is that I am unlikely to respond to Gary's accusations unless he makes them in an appropriate place.

(I've deleted the material that was copied from User talk:Garycompugeek, and/or that seems to be part of that discussion.) Jakew (talk) 22:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello Jake. First let me assure you that I have had every intention of coming here and talking with you. Second I don't want you to think I have something personal against you or some kind of crusade to get you banned from wikipedia. It might help if I first go over my motivations. Recently I have become aware that you seem to be heavily involved in convincing others of the merits of circumcision. I knew you were passionate from our previous discussions but had no idea of the extent. I commend you for you dedication but it paints you in a difficult position. Your bias, whether intentional or not, seems to have colored circumcision and related articles. This COI is not good for the project. I would be more comfortable if you were more open with your background and position concerning circumcision on your user page. Garycompugeek (talk) 22:35, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello Gary. I'm glad you've finally decided to come here and discuss the issue. As far as I can tell, there seem to be several sub-issues.

First, is a POV a COI? I note that you and Avi have discussed this point here, and I agree with Avi: there is a distinction between having a POV and having a COI. Let's be realistic: why would anyone edit the circumcision article unless one had a point of view about it? We all have points of view. If having a POV about circumcision presents a conflict of interest, then nobody with an interest in editing the article should do so. That's absurd, I think you'll agree. So the only rational conclusion seems to be that, although a person with a COI usually has a POV, having a POV does not by itself mean that one has a COI.

Second (and I'm borrowing some specific issues from your posts elsewhere), does publishing material on the subject in academic peer-reviewed journals constitute a COI? No, to quote WP:COI#Examples: "Editing in an area in which you have professional or academic expertise is not, in itself, a conflict of interest." I guess one could quibble over "academic expertise", but I think the intent of the guideline is clear: since any academic expert would almost certainly have published on the subject, having published on the subject is in itself not a COI. The guideline goes on to discuss citing one's own work, but the issue here seems to be the existence of the material.

Third (again I'm borrowing some specifics from elsewhere), is having a website (circs.org) a COI? Normally, no. However, there are (relatively rare) occasions when it can present a COI. For example, in late 2006 a message was added describing circs.org as "pro-circumcision", which I felt was inaccurate. I complained about it on the talk page (see here), but did not address the issue directly, stating "Given my personal involvement in one of the sites concerned, I will avoid editing the notice." 2.5 years later, the message still remains on the page, though I still consider it to be incorrect. I hope that gives you confidence in my handling of COI issues.

Fourth (once again, borrowing specifics from elsewhere), is the fact that I debate (or, perhaps more precisely, "have debated") circumcision on USENET and a small number of web sites evidence of a COI? No, specific messages may be evidence of a POV, but having (and expressing) a POV isn't a COI.

Fifth, as I understand it (and putting it into the most NPOV terms), one of your key objections seems to be that you disagree with my statement regarding my views on circumcision. I'm afraid I'm going to have to be blunt, you seem to think that you know better than I do about my own position re circumcision. From my point of view, this is ludicrous: I know my position, whereas you can only guess. It seems almost surreal to have a debate about it, so what do you want to do? I'm more than happy to discuss it, but such a discussion would have to be on the basis that I'm helping you to understand my position. Jakew (talk) 09:20, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your response Jake. I'll try to respond in order but some of my answer/questions may overlap.

My understanding of a conflict of interest is when someone is too close to an issue. Everyone has a POV. For simplicities sake lets just say circumcision editors could be divided into con, neutral, or pro (I understand it is much more complicated than this). Neutral editors that could care less one way or the other seem to be a rare bird for this topic. Most editors that edit circumcision can be placed in the pro or con camp based on their actions. My very first edit to talk circumcision placed me con camp for a specific purpose. I wanted the editors involved on the page to understand how and why I felt the way I did about the issue. Whether I revealed this information or not is not going to change the way I edit but I feel passionate about the subject and wanted everyone to understand my motivation. This doesn't mean I am unable to edit the article in a neutral manner. If that were the case only true neutrals would be able to edit articles and we would have a very tiny volunteer encyclopedia. So a POV is not COI, everyone has a POV. More difficult to determine is when is someone too close to an issue? It isn't just one thing that makes me think you have a COI Jake. It was the combination of the things listed above in their totality. Let's go over them for posterity.

• Involvement in scientific papers and letters to the editor regarding circumcision.
• Owner of pro circumcision website. (add some con circ material and I'll believe your site is neutral)
• Heavy involvement of many forums on the internet (this being one of them) promoting the merits of circumcision
• Last but not least your continued stance that you do not have a pro circ position (pro parental choice is simply a thinly veiled way of saying I'm pro circ because parents should be able to circumsise their children because you believe in the merits of circumcision). Michael Glass and Tip expressed their surprise at your neutrality declaration in the link you provided [1].

These things altogether add up to a COI coupled with your incredibly high edit counts of circumcision and related articles to create a pattern of bias over an extended period of time.

Regarding your claim of neutrality, I'm not claiming to read your mind and know it better than you, but your actions speak louder than your words. I've seen you revert blatant pro circ NPOV additions but this doesn't make your stance neutral, it just means you are trying follow NPOV policy. Garycompugeek (talk) 20:49, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Following NPOV policy is all that is required, Gary. Even WP:COI is is a red flag (although not a prohibition) because of the inherent difficulties of editing as per NPOV with a financial or familial interest. Wiki neutrality does not require its editors to act lobotomized, if the edits are in accordance with NPOV, that is sufficient. -- Avi (talk) 20:56, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Avi I was referring to Jake's declared stance of neutrality on that last paragraph and I refer to Jakes's COI as many things not just one. Garycompugeek (talk) 21:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, I just wanted to make sure that the point was clear that NPOV relates to a user's edits, not a user's opinions. -- Avi (talk) 21:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

And thank you for your response, Gary. I'll also try my best to respond in order, but as I'm sure you're aware, this isn't always possible.

First, I need to say that I think your system of classifying editors is overly simplistic, as it fails to take into account the subtleties of the way that real people view an issue. Certainly I resent being classified as "pro", and I feel it is inaccurate. You did state, though, that it was a simplification, and I suppose that maybe this doesn't matter for the purpose you have in mind. I guess I don't understand the purpose of the classification system in the first place: what is it intended to achieve?

Moving on, I recognise that you have clearly stated your position (and I remember you doing so). I think this can be useful, but at the same time we also need to avoid using talk pages as a soapbox for our own views. (I don't mean to suggest that you've done that; I'm just offering a counterpoint to the idea that stating one's position is desirable per se.)

Next, we seem to agree on the points that everyone has a POV, and that a POV is not the same as a COI. That's good.

Unfortunately we don't seem to agree on the next part. I'm sorry, but I'm not persuaded by this "totality" argument. I think that to establish a COI you need to establish that a specific link between an editor and the subject is a COI. Your argument seems to be that there are a bunch of links that do not by themselves establish a COI, but that together they somehow do establish a COI. I just see a bunch of links that aren't a COI, I'm afraid.

A couple of specific points:

• I'm not sure that a collection of papers can really be considered pro- or anti-. It's expresses very few opinions, it's mostly just a collection of articles. And although articles sometimes express opinions, many simply describe scientific observations. It seems unfair to call these either pro- or anti-. It might be more accurate to talk about "papers that assert a benefit", etc. It's true to say that there are more of these, though, partly because that's true of the literature in general, and partly because of the history of CIRCS. Whether you personally believe that the site is neutral is up to you, of course.
• I don't think it's accurate to say that I've "promot[ed] the merits of circumcision". I am certainly involved in debating circumcision, though.
• It seems rather circular to argue that my edits on WP are evidence of a COI.
• I've explained the distinction between pro-circumcision and pro-parental choice in my reply to Tremello, below.
• I know that Michael and Tip responded in their own way. There's nothing I can do about that. I disagree with those editors on almost everything, sadly, and this seems to be no exception.

Jakew (talk) 22:17, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

You say that "It's true to say that there are more of these ['papers that assert a benefit'], though, [...] partly because of the history of CIRCS." How specifically would the history of CIRCS be partly the cause of it containing more papers that assert a benefit, as a distinct cause separate from the prevalence of such article in the literature? As founder of CIRCS, you seem well suited to answer. Blackworm (talk) 07:00, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay. One of the main reasons for creating CIRCS was my irritation at the one-sidedness of CIRP, in particular my view that it seemed superficially to be so comprehensive, yet presented such a distorted selection of the literature. It created what I suppose you could call a kind of "information availability bias", which, I must admit, misled me at first (until I discovered PubMed and medical libraries), and would presumably mislead others. My aim was (and is, though I haven't worked on the site for some time) eventually to include at least an abstract for every study on circumcision, but early on I realised that I needed a short-term goal as well. So I decided to focus, in general, on papers that were not available at CIRP, the idea being that for any given subject, the index pages for CIRP + CIRCS should be complete (or if not complete then at least not leave out too many important papers). Jakew (talk) 08:57, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

---

I don't know why you have deleted it Jake. I also have something to say about you (which you deleted). I think you are being a bit disingenuous in being annoyed at Gary. I think you know what his concerns are. I for one think they are legitimate and share his view. Tremello22 (talk) 22:43, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, since Gary has now arrived, he and I can discuss his concerns. :) Jakew (talk) 09:20, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

You offered to explain your position on circumcision. I think that would be a good way to clear up any tensions that might arise from not knowing. Obviously there are different types of circumcision. The one that we are concerned with most is non-therapeutic infant circumcision. If you want to give your opinion on any other kinds of circumcision such as circumcision in Africa to prevent HIV, religious , and any other you can think of, then that would be a bonus. Tremello22 (talk) 19:35, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Certainly, Tremello. As I state on my user page, I'm neither in favour of or against neonatal circumcision. Let me put that in concrete terms. If you were expecting a son (for all I know, perhaps you are), and you asked me whether I thought you should have your son circumcised, I wouldn't say "yes", nor would I say "no". I'd probably say something like "I don't think it's appropriate for me to say. All I can advise is that you do plenty of research, and do please ask if I can help you with any questions relating to scientific facts." (This has been more or less my response on the few occasions when people have asked.) I consider this to be an important distinction between my own position (which I call "pro-parental choice") and those whom I would consider "pro-circumcision": I believe that a pro-circumcision person would say "yes". I hope that this also explains why I find it offensive to be described as an "advocate": I make a deliberate choice not to advocate.

Hopefully that has explained what I would (or in this case wouldn't) suggest to others, but some background is probably needed, and in any case you may be wondering "what does Jake actually think?" Let me briefly give you some background (for my own convenience this is lightly adapted from one of my off-wiki posts).

Generally, I imagine the range of benefits and harms as a line:

HARM ___________*___________|________.________|___________%____________BENEFIT

At one end of the line are actions that are extremely harmful. Most people would recommend against these, and there is a point (marked with an asterisk) at which the degree of harm is so great that most people would be in favour of making such actions illegal. At the other end are actions that are clearly beneficial. Most would recommend in favour of these, and there is a point (marked with a percent sign) at which the degree of benefit is so great that there would be support for making these actions compulsory. At the exact centre of the line are actions that are completely neutral, and surrounding this point is what could be described as a "fairly neutral" zone. My personal assessment is that circumcision lies between the centre point and the percent sign: put another way, I think it's somewhere between "fairly neutral" and "net benefit" (my assessment of the exact placement changes from time to time as new evidence becomes available), but I don't consider that benefit to be large enough to mandate it. In other words I agree with the position of Benatar and Benatar that it's a procedure that is a legitimate parental choice. For the same reasons, I consider religious infant circumcision to be a legitimate parental choice.

Does this help? Jakew (talk) 21:19, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes it does help. At least I know your view now. Of course you may say that you are pro-parental choice but I am sure you would agree that their eventual decision would then depend on the information you give them. If you give the parents information that is likely to convince them to circumcise, isn't that more or less the same thing as advocating it?

Just to bring this back in relation to the article: circumcision, what is your purpose for editing that? What are you trying to protect the article from? Tremello22 (talk) 21:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

To answer your first question, I think it would depend on the situation. For example, if a person were to rush up to pregnant women and excitedly give them one-sided information that is intended to convince them to circumcise, yes, you can call that advocacy. But at the other extreme, if a scientist were to conduct a rigorous study in which she found evidence of a benefit to circumcision and then published the results, I wouldn't say that's advocacy, even if the information she published convinced parents to circumcise. So I think that it depends on the context, the situation, and the intent.

To answer your second question, I want circumcision (and related articles — and unrelated articles, for that matter!) to be neutral, accurate, and informative. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good (IMHO it's by far the best page on the subject on the Internet), and that's because it sticks closely to applicable policies and guidelines.

In general, I'm passionate about what I call "bias-reducing methodologies" — that is, systematic approaches that can reduce or eliminate bias. The best example, in terms of academic papers, is the meta-analysis. Here you define a systematic method for identifying and retrieving papers (typically PubMed searches with specified search terms, retrieving every paper, then looking through the ref list for related papers and, if necessary, retrieving those). Then you extract data into a standardised format, and apply a mathematical process to summarise the data (doubtless this part appeals to the software engineer in me). It's not perfect (and I've seen some awful meta-analyses), and perhaps nothing can be, but it's so much better than a typical non-systematic review, in which authors seem (particularly when they have a clear agenda) to simply select whatever sources best advance their agenda, and ignore the rest. The framework of the systematic approach can seem restrictive at times, it can seem to stifle creativity or prevent one from making a decision that seems "obviously" right, but the fact that it forces one to be neutral and objective adds more value than it takes away.

I'm mentioning this because I think that WP policies and guidelines act in a similar way, especially when you consider how they work together. As with meta-analyses, the framework can seem unnecessarily restrictive sometimes, but it works, and it produces something of value. And I think that's pretty remarkable, when you consider that it's put together by a bunch of (mostly) anonymous individuals, who mostly disagree with each other, and who have varying degrees of familiarity with the subject matter. It shouldn't work, logically, and the fact that it does indicates that WP policy is something that's worth upholding. Jakew (talk) 09:16, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Jakew I wasn't talking about a scientist giving them information. I was talking about you giving a parent information; either directly (say in a forum) or indirectly (say the wikipedia article: circumcision). Would you call Brian Morris an advocate or Edgar Schoen? Tremello22 (talk) 20:55, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I know, Tremello. Those examples were deliberately chosen as extremes, to illustrate my point that one has to consider the context and intent. I'm not suggesting that either scenario would directly apply to myself. I don't think I have an answer to your original question ("If you give the parents information that is likely to convince them to circumcise, isn't that more or less the same thing as advocating it?"), though, because I think it depends on the specific information, how it is provided, and the intent. I'm sorry if you were hoping for a simple answer, but I don't think there is one. Jakew (talk) 21:40, 26 June 2009 (UTC)