User talk:M. Dingemanse

This user is currently busy in real life and may not respond swiftly to queries. You may want to try email.

This is a Wikipedia user talk page. This is not an encyclopedia article or the talk page for an encyclopedia article. If you find this page on any site other than Wikipedia, you are viewing a mirror site. Be aware that the page may be outdated and that the user to whom this talk page belongs to may have no personal affiliation with any site other than Wikipedia itself. The original talk page is located at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:M._Dingemanse.

Wikimedia Foundation

Welcome to my Talk page.

If you post a message I will usually reply on this page to avoid fragmenting the discussion.
If I have left you a message I will be watching so you can reply on your talk page if you wish.
I dislike having my Talk page spammed with impersonal multi-user messages.

EDIT

My talk archives

• Archive 1 (back to August 2004)
• Archive 2 (October - December 2004)
• Archive 3 (January - February 2005)
• Archive 4 (March 2005)
• Archive 5 (April - May 2005)
• Archive 6 (June 2005)
• Archive 7 (July - August 2005)
• Archive 8 (September - October 2005)
• Archive 9 (November - December 2005)
• Archive 10 (January - February 2006)
• Archive 11 (March - April 2006)
• Archive 12 (May - August 2006)
• Archive 13 (September - October 2006)
• Archive 14 (November 2006 - January 2007)
• Archive 15 (February 2007 - onward)

---

Confirmation

I confirm my request to be desysopped. I'm too busy at the moment to be of any help as an admin. What little time I have I'd like to spend on contributing content, and I don't need the sysop bit for that. — mark ✎ 11:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

You have been desysopped as requested. effeietsanders 12:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that was fast. It's a relief! — mark ✎ 20:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

• Mark; sorry to see you give up your admin bit but I understand your reasons. Please be aware that since you gave up your admin status under non-controversial circumstances, you do not need to re-apply at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship if you choose to be an admin again. You may simply make a request at Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard and you can be re-flagged as an admin. Best of wishes for you, --Durin 17:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Durin, thanks for the note, and I'll remember to do so whenever I feel the admin tools come in handy again. — mark ✎ 20:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who has been here, I think you've made the right choice. Be well, BanyanTree 04:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I just followed the example of one of the Wikipedians I respect most: you. Thanks, BT, and see you around! — mark ✎ 16:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Fine as long as you stick around. Been seeing good editors disappear, which worries me. --Ezeu 04:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Ezeu, that worries me too, and I can't say I'm immune to the, how shall I say it, disentchantment that comes with disinvolvement. But maybe I should just delete my watchlist and see what new stuff I can contribute. It's also plain lack of time, though. — mark ✎ 18:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

African languages map is really nice, but extremely unrealistic for North Africa.

I really like the African languages map, but I find the North African distribution questionable. Total absence of Arabic in the Northwest is misleading. Arabic is not only a second language of the majority, but also the first language of the absolute majority in Tunisia, a clear majority in Algeria and Morocco, and a significant pluraity in Mauritania. As it stands, the map seems to suggest that Arabic is spoken in Egypt and parts of Lybia, while Berber is spoken in the rest of North Africa (which is clearly not the reality). Berber is alive, true, but so is Arabic very clearly. One more thing, what tool did you use to create this great map?--Karkaron 04:52, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I presume you're talking about Image:African language families.png, which is one of a series of maps. The names on the map should only be taken as some examples of languages to be connected to the four families; if I had wanted to mark the distribution of those individual languages, I would have chosen different colours or shades. Of course I agree with your point about the prevalence of Arabic in much of the Sahel (see Image:Afro-Asiatic.png for a map in the same series which deals specifically with Afro-Asiatic).

I made those maps one and a half year ago in CorelDraw 12. — mark ✎ 17:08, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering...

Hello, do you by any chance have copies of Maasai language books written by Frans Mol? If you do or know where I can obtain my own copies, please email me [email protected] Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.253.112.164 (talk) 00:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you have access to JStor.org? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 09:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Try emailing me. — mark ✎ 14:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Invitation

{{WP Africa Invitation}} Belovedfreak 18:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Yep, I'm aware of the new WikiProject Africa. However, I won't join; chiefly because I simply lack the time (see above), but also a because I'm afraid Africa is too broad in scope for one overarching Wikiproject. — mark ✎ 18:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Edit conflict on Nafaanra

Sorry about that; I'll stop now. Let me know when you want me to have another look. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

OK; I'll wait for you, and have another look when you're ready. Looks good, though. Too bad it ended up on the list, but it was probably quite a chore to go through over 1,000 articles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Mark, I hesitate to work on some of these without your input. For example, I would change:

Delafosse (1904) was the first linguist to mention Nafaanra, calling it 'a much dispersed Senufo tribe'.[10]

to

Delafosse was the first linguist to mention Nafaanra, calling it 'a much dispersed Senufo tribe'.[10]

That is, I would remove the inline reference to the date of the cited source, since it's given in the actual footnote. Is that OK with you? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Certainly, that would be fine. — mark ✎ 16:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the way it is now ('Delafosse was the first linguist to mention Nafaanra, calling it 'a much dispersed Senufo tribe' in 1904') is good; it is notable that the first mention of Nafaanra dates back to only 1904. — mark ✎ 07:49, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

And I realize only now that I wrote the first version of the article (the first good publicly available source of information on the language) exactly one hundred years after that! — mark ✎ 08:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Nice job :-) I usually wait for Marskell to concur before removing items from the list. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:25, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I keep getting stuck here: not sure if this is a or b. Jordan (1980:D.1.4) I hope I don't do more harm than good. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

That's a 1980a, because of the funny page numbers. That document doesn't have page numbers, only sections. Sorry, I should've cleared this up before; the problem is that I only got hold of 1980b after I had written the bulk of the article. — mark ✎ 17:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Donjunctive

As usual, you're completely and utterly wrong, marc. Though their verbal complexes are written conjunctively this does not seem to be consistently applied. At least in Kiswahili (iirc) the concords and prefixes (such as conjunctive "na-") are not attached to the rest of the word. I did take your advice and changed the wording from "almost all" to "many." Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 14:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I guess this simply shows how unnatural and unscientific the word division is, though I did try to explain it (the Sesotho version) a bit in the article. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 14:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

In Swahili, the conjunctive na isn't a concord (it agrees with nothing) nor a prefix (it associates two noun phrases and can't really be said to be more related to one than to the other, hence not an affix to either of the two). Because na doesn't consistently pattern with nor agree to some other word, it seems quite natural to me to write it as a separate word. In general, Swahili orthography strikes me as natural and neat.

And yes, as mentioned in word (an excellent article by Gareth), it is notoriously difficult to define just what makes a word a word, so it is actually not surprising that difficulties like this arise. I wouldn't rush to call the result unnatural or unscientific though; somewhere, choices have to be made and these will always give rise to disagreements. — mark ✎ 17:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm taking Doke's side when he says that "na" (Sesotho "le") is a proclitic. How do you indicate possession in Kiswahili, "X wa Y" or "X waY"? I think I'll quickly take a look in the meantime. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 19:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The concord is separated from the possessee. I think the neatness comes from the simplicity of the language (it doesn't have a million concords and parts of speech). Remember that Doke based his opinions from comparisons of numerous languages, though his definition of the word (used in the Sesotho articles) may also be utterly arbitrary... Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 19:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

A proclitic it may well be, but that needn't be a reason to not distinguish the word boundary. Words are often phonologically joined in natural speech, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the most useful or meaningful orthography is one where the word boundaries in such cases are not marked. — mark ✎ 19:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I read the word article. IMO the most useful analyses for Bantu languages are

• Pauses. Though they seem to disappeare in multi-verbal conjugations.
• Minimal free forms. Like the example I provided in Sesotho language.
• Phonetic boundaries. Vowel harmony and penult stress.
• Semantic units. Another analysis by Doke.

Basically Sesotho is S (plus elaboration) V (+e) O (+e), in his case every proper word serves a definite syntactic function (thus the 6 major Sesotho parts of speech divisions). I think that since "na" has 0 syntactic function (a conjunctive at the word level, which may be used without the first word) it's a modifying clitic.

Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 09:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

HELL!

Could you please revert my accidental blanking of Talk:Sesotho language? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 20:26, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Frozen over. — mark ✎ 19:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

:-) Actually, I really don't see how I could've blanked the page since I was adding a section with a blank heading (like this one)... Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 21:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

That was meant to be a smiley :-) not an indentation. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 21:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I read the Hamitic article. Apparently it was actually Meinhof who came up with the crazy ideas of connections between "Hamitic," "Hottentot," "Bantu," "San," and "Negro" "races." Do you think 100 years from now people will look back on us and think that WE were a bit not-right in the head?

Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 21:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Meinhof was not the only one of course. This kind of thinking pervaded nineteenth century scientific thought. The intriguing thing is of course that while one is in it, the Weltanschauung of one's contemporary culture generally doesn't strike one as utterly mistaken. Only hundred years later the stupidities become clear for all to see. — mark ✎ 06:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

MotsamyaMesong

You might like to take a look at "DawnTreader"'s "contributions". I really do not have the patience or temper to deal with this incredibly rude and disrespectful know-it-all high school (school ends at 14:00 -- 12:00 on Wikipedia) kid. That is, if you think there's a problem.

Enjoy. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 13:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I got rid of my adminship for a reason! — mark ✎ 14:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

How about:

"Hey dude. Though you may indeed be 102% correct about your views and it is perfectly acceptable for you to implement any changes you feel necessary to Wikipedia content; going about and harassing other contributors (patronising them, questioning their intelligence and knowledge, and making disparaging and mildly racist comments about them on talk pages) is probably not the absolute best way to go about it.

etc. etc. Blah blah. etc.

"All the best, marc."?

Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 15:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, the good cop tone of voice. But why not just steer clear of things you don't like? Not every comment merits a reaction. — mark ✎ 16:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay... If you say so, dude. I just don't have much patience with blatantly retarded people -- as I'm sure you've noticed by now...

What is this, the Great Disjunctivitis Plague of the early 21st century??

Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 17:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, the problem is not the airhead remarks, but the edits. Take a look at his edit history and at that of User:41.208.227.188 -- haven't you noticed that Sesotho language and Sesotho phonology look like crap?

If YOU revert him and show a commitment to protecting the integrity of Wikipedia content (since I find it very difficult to do so) then he might feel inclined to stop trolling and take up some extramural activity (like getting a girlfriend and some real friends).

It would also make me feel less like the people here have very strong views on minor issues like article titles but are disinclined when I need their help to improve content or fight vandals.

Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 19:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

And Sesotho nouns and Sesotho concords. I'm also done reverting his changes to articles which are sourced from the constitution.

Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 19:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It would also make me feel less like the people here have very strong views on minor issues like article titles but are disinclined when I need their help to improve content... I don't think the current edit war is about improving content; it's much closer to being a minor issue just like you mention. If you think it needs intervention, try asking someone who hasn't been as heavily involved in this dispute as I have been.

Besides, I prefer to stay cool when the editing gets hot; I usually simply turn to something more worthwile to avoid fanning the flames. — mark ✎ 20:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's not exactly a "pointless" or "minor" dispute since several perfectly acceptable articles have been converted into useless heaps of redlinks.

I wonder how many people (apart from Angr a few days ago when he checked my edit to Template:Language phonologies, as well as you) have actually bothered to read and learn from this stuff? The articles don't seem to have done any good at all.

Did you look at the "contributions" and histories? Does this not look like trolling, vandalism, and mild harassment? And while he continues to find this entertaining (his 2 weeks aren't up yet) how much further damage will we allow him to do?

Yes, I know that I can ask for someone else's help, but I'm sure you understand why I'd much rather prefer your assistance.

Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 20:59, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Away

I will be away for the next two weeks, so I'll not be able to continue any open conversations. See you in May! — mark ✎ 18:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

MOVE FEST!!!! YAY!!!!! :-D

Only kidding!

Tebello TheWHO!!?? 18:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

hey hey

Just wandering by and thought I'd drop you a line to note that I do occasionally check to see if you've returned. Best, BanyanTree 09:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

responded over there — mark ✎ 18:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

hey hey hey

How nice to see you around again! How are the two-dozen-speaker languages doing? Bishonen | talk 07:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC).

Pick your brain

Yo! I thought I might just squeeze this in when I could. Do you know of any sound laws that might change the sequence C1V1C2V2 to C1V1V2C2V2?? I found the following in Sesotho:

lerole to lerwele (dust, PB *tudi), lengole to lengwele (knee), lekote to lekwete (clod), kgole to kgwele (rope), lesofe to leswefe (albino). I speak the second way but I know there are people who speak the first way. Basically, the two vowels are the same height and (I guess) the 2 vowel is copied to after the 1, which labialises the 1 consonant. Look familiar?

Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 13:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't your formula be (CV₁)CV₂CV₁, as the C's don't seem to matter? I don't know much about sound laws in Bantu, though. But I can always try to tell a story. If you find it only in syllables which have /o/ as V2, that would support the idea that this involves labialisation under influence of the articulatory features (esp. roundedness) of [o]. This labialisation eats away at the syllable peak, which leads to a phonotactic vacuum that must be filled according to the syllable requirements of the language; this leads to an /e/ coming into being (epenthesis, if you will). It would be very nice if /e/ was the unmarked vowel in Sotho, which I don't know. — mark ✎ 10:48, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, in the cases I've found the two vowels are at the same height. In most of them it is [o] and [e] but with lerwele it is [U] and [I] (we have the Sesotho orthography to blame for any confusion). You seem to be saying that the vowel is epithentic but based on the data I think that the second vowel is being copied (or sucked by your peak vacuum). Of course, I'll need to find more examples before I know for sure... Your scenario of the first vowel triggering labialisation even though it is not immediately followed by another vowel sounds better the more and more I think about it... Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 20:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Yo

Did you receive the last email I sent you, on the 22nd of September? Huh?

Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 11:41, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Let me check...

Yes, and I forgot to reply! I'll look into it. — mark ✎ 08:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you so very much!! :-D

Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 08:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello

Do you speak pedi? if you do please tell me why it is named pedi. Is it really intended to mean "two"? if it really is - then why should it be intended to mean "two"? thank you in advance. Eliko (talk) 23:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Eliko, I hope you're watching this page.

If you would go to the Sesotho article and go down to the section talking about its dialects, you will see that the woman who gave birth to the founders of the wider Basotho peoples named one her sons "Mopedi", and his people adopted his name calling themselves Bapedi, and calling their language Sepedi.

In this way, the name is the name of an ancient hero we talk about in our praise poems, but, like so many legendary names, nobody knows for sure what it meant. It most probably has nothing to do with the number 2 (even though the root is pronounced EXACTLY like the number 2). I imagine that if the name had come from the number, the number root would not have been nasally permuted, thus resulting in the name Mobedi or Mmedi (with assimilation).

Moshoeshoe I's half brother was named Mopedi, in honour of this ancestor, and there is a Charles Mopedi stadium, obviously named after a guy whose family had adopted the name as a surname.

Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 07:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for sorting that out, Zyxoas! — mark ✎ 18:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Pleasure! Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 22:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Acholi page

On the Acholi page you inserted the following "... Starting in the late seventeenth century, a new sociopolitical order developed among the Luo of northern Uganda, mainly characterized by the formation of chiefdoms headed by Rwodi (sg. Rwot, 'ruler'). ..." I just want to know what "sg." means. LindaNowakowski (talk) 05:44, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi Linda,

It means 'singular', i.e. Rwot is the singular form of Rwodi 'rulers' in the local language. — mark ✎ 07:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Natural semantic metalanguage

I've started work on this article (somewhat in parallel with Word grammar, though the links between them are tenuous at best). I'm not a linguist, however, and would appreciate it if you could check in now and then and see how I'm doing. Recently I've added a lot of bibliography. Yakushima (talk) 16:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Carlos Cardoso and Arthur C. Clarke?

Hi, I just posted a query at talk:Carlos Cardoso#Arthur C. Clarke connection? concerning Cardoso, and wondered if you might have any information. Thanks. Wwheaton (talk) 16:37, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't, sorry. — mark ✎ 09:27, 9 January 2009 (UTC)