User talk:Jimbo Wales

Wikipedia:Arbitration Role of Jimmy Wales in the English Wikipedia

As far as I can tell, no one has drawn your attention to the above-mentioned proposal and related RFC on the talk page. –xeno^talk 19:22, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. It is much too premature for this proposal, and it seems to mix several different issues. I am very open, as always, to making changes, and support a general movement to refine processes over time, but I think a much more comprehensive discussion is needed before an actual proposal like this is put forward.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

For the record What do I want! modest incremental change. When do I want it! in the fullness of time after due consideration and reflection. So we're probably on the same page there. Will you give a view as to how you see your future role with respect to Arbcom and what contingencies are in place should you be unable to fulfil the role? Thanks. --Joopercoopers (talk) 01:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

That's a very good question. I think a very useful model of a modern constitutional government with checks and balances, and a healthy mix of respect for tradition, stability, and democracy is that of the UK government. We have today a very different sort of system, as suits our needs, but there are many ideas in that system which we do not have here - many of which do not need here. Admins are in some ways similar to the House of Lords, in the sense that they are in office essentially for life unless they do something pretty egregious. We do not have a House of Commons, though perhaps we should. The ArbCom is something like the Law Lords, although again, not in every particular. I would hope to see some useful ideas generated over time, in collaboration with the existing institutions, which are working pretty well but have flaws. Having a single institution - a fully elected ArbCom with absolute sovereignty for example - would be dangerous for the obvious reasons. Having me with completely unrestricted power in all things, which we do not have and I do not want... I want less power over time, not more - would be dangerous for the obvious reasons. Having everything decided by day to day popular votes also has clear problems.

One way in which our system does mirror the British system is that we have admins, elected directly by the community, being something like Parliament (though being more like the Lords in some ways, and the Commons in other ways). And ArbCom being something like the government. And me being something like the monarch, with a customary veto which is rarely used (actually, essentially never). And other odd bits and pieces.

Institutional design is a complex matter.

On a more personal level, and I believe that the ArbCom members past and present will back me up on this, I serve the ArbCom in terms of providing some institutional and "spiritual" memory and reminders. I try to make myself useful to them, and I generally have I think. I raise questions and try to pose challenges and help encourage a spirit of thoughtfulness. I don't have to do much of this, because the sorts of people who are elected to ArbCom in our current system are not the type of people generally inclined to partisanship and bickering, but to reflection and deliberation.

There are risks in change, but still, we should always look for change. Orderly, thoughtful, and productive change.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:20, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. And contingencies? --Joopercoopers (talk) 02:25, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure things would work out ok without me. Lots of good people here. How about this: in case of my untimely death or inability to perform my capacities, the ArbCom is hereby authorized to figure out what to do, subject to ratification with a 50%+1 vote of the community. In the interim between them coming up with a ratified proposal, the status quo is to be considered as much as possible. I will admend this succession plan from time to time upon the recommendation of the ArbCom and Community, until such time as we figure out a more longterm and binding way of dealing with it.

I promise to do my best to stay alive so that this is nothing more than a cute speculation, too. :)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:29, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, Mr Wales. You describe part of your power as "a customary veto which is rarely used (actually, essentially never)". Perhaps this is why the French and German WPs—actually, every other WP—seem to do fine without such a role? On your UK governance analogies, I find the House of Lords analogy for admins to be odd. Tony (talk) 03:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

"Leave ... Jimmy D. ... alone!" --- CHRIS CROCKER (link) ↜Just M E here , now 04:10, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, and probably something that is relatively not very well known, Jimbo's actual involvement in ArbCom business is, essentially, inexistent. He occasionally sends something our way that was addressed originally to him but doesn't require his intervention, or asks for our input on the very occasional matter that is on his lap, and we occasionally poke him for "philosophical opinion" when we consider matters of a more "constitutional" feel.

To give a sense of perspective, out of the approximately 16000 emails that have been on arbcom-l in the past six months, Jimbo has around 70 to his name, nearly half of which are on topics more social than Wikipedian. Rumors of his still ruling Wikipedia with the iron fist of an eminence grise are, at best, misguided. — Coren ^(talk) 03:37, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

An opening! I'm sure I have a grey suit in my closet *somewhere*, so all I need to do is bribe the Lord High Assigner of Titles to make me a Wiki-Cardinal.... ;-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 16:25, 1 July 2009

Did someone call? Cardinal de Richelieu (talk) 21:14, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

(UTC) And the kicker is this: According to WP:CONEXCEPT, this would be entirely official. <innocent cat-got-cream look> 

Thanks Jimbo, I confess I'm rather confused by your analogy and think, as perhaps analogies like this are necessarily limited, that it is of little value. Furthermore, being from the UK and regularly seeing the lords temporal and spiritual drooling into their ermine, and given their resistance to the parliament acts, reform and generally conservative nature - I'm quite alarmed - I'm sure they're not exactly the best model for admins. The system is largely a finely balanced 1000 year fudge which has taken a millenia to evolve under competing and changing pressures. Ultimately it's flexibility is a strength, but the confusion of a lack of written constitution ensures only lawyers can understand it in totality - surely not a good thing. I'm also not sure we have the time and the key missing element is the commons. Perhaps better to visualise how our system might evolve.

Discussion of 'founder' contingencies or your gradual replacement leads to a question of what we might be replacing. Perhaps a good start would be to clarify your current role? The following are suggestions for a probably incomplete list - could you comment or add to them (or your TPWs)? Cheers. --Joopercoopers (talk) 22:20, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

1. Appointment of Arbcom members
2. Veto of Arbcom (ever used?)
3. Dissolution of Arbcom [1] "The arbitration committee, on the other hand, can impose a solution that I'll consider to be binding, with of course the exception that I reserve the right of executive clemency and indeed even to dissolve the whole thing if it turns out to be a disaster. But I regard that as unlikely, and I plan to do it about as often as the Queen of England dissolves Parliament against their wishes, i.e. basically never, but it is one last safety valve for our values."
4. Clemency [2] see above.
5. Removal of Arb members [3] (You talk of a 'constitutional right' here - is it written? where?)
6. Founder user rights:"The 'founder' group was created on the English Wikipedia by developer Tim Starling, as a unique group for Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales. The group gives Wales full access to Special:UserRights and Special:Makesysop. As Wales is also a member of the global founder group since February 27, 2009 (Jimmy Wales was a steward before), he has the ability to change the user rights of any editor on any Wikimedia wiki from meta:Special:UserRights, making the local 'founder' group largely a status symbol. However, as "local founder actions" are usually of great interest to the local community, and are only relevant to the English Wikipedia, the local 'founder' right also has the benefit of allowing Wales' actions to be visible in the English Wikipedia rights log; actions performed with the global founder bit are not visible in that record, but only on the log at Metawiki."
7. Desysop - various. eg. the last one
8. Policy fiats per WP:CONEXCEPT

   Spokesman and PR WMF role per tango below.

9. WP:IAR? Anything you believe will make the place better or more efficient? I think so, but checked by this "In the event that the ArbCom makes a ruling against me, overturning any decision I have made in my traditional capacity within Wikipedia, the ArbCom's decision shall be final." In the same post you announce this is a change in our policies.

   Fundraising WMF role per tango below.

--Joopercoopers (talk) 22:20, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

(9) and (11) are more WMF things than English Wikipedia things. There is no proposal that I've seen to change Jimmy's position with relation to the WMF. --Tango (talk) 23:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Tango - I've struck them through. --Joopercoopers (talk) 23:21, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

The English system of government minus the House of Commons is feudalism. I'm not really sure if that's the sort of governance model we'd want for 2009. Baileyquarter (talk) 03:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe the entirety of the English Wikipedia would be analogous to the House of Commons, then? ---- The thing is (note: this next thought has nothing to do with introductory sentence), we always have to kowtow to somebody. Conceptualizing/making Wikipedia happen was/is a wonderful thing, in exchange for which some of us are happy to grant Mr. Wales the benefit of doubt with regard to his ongoing decisions and methodologies as he continues to shepherd the project forward. A lot of the genius of what's been created is the LACK of unnecessary rules and bureaucracy except those deemed absolutely necessary towards achieving the encyclopedia's objectives and purposes. Whoever imposes discipline and is in authority is gonna catch flack, even rotating board-member folks subject to popular vote blah-blah, anyway; and Jimbo overall is soooo freakin benign, we shouldn't really complain; so let's just leave the Constitutional monarchy (private college or whatever kind of analogy we wanna use?) how it is. ↜Just M E here , now 06:27, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

The community as a whole is too big to make decisions in the same way the House of Commons does. We either need to form some kind of representative body or accept that major policy changes are going to happen very rarely and slowly. There are certainly advantages to not having the rules changing on a whim every few days and there are certainly advantages to being able to adapt quickly to changing situations. We need to discuss what system will be the most advantageous, but Jimbo's talk page is not the place to do it. --Tango (talk) 23:19, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

No, it's not. Feudalism is primarily an economic system rather than a governance system. It's all about land ownership and military funding. I don't think the concept is applicable to Wikipedia, so it makes no sense to ask whether or not it is what we want. --Tango (talk) 23:19, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Look up Feudalism on Wikipedia. It is defined as a political system. You must have confused feudalism with manorialism. Warmest regards, Baileyquarter (talk) 23:35, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

The overview in that article says: "The system, in its most basic essence, is the granting of land in return for military service." That sounds more economic than political to me. It doesn't talk about making or enforcing laws, it talks about an exchange one of valuable commodity for another. Manorialism is about what you do with the land once you have it. --Tango (talk) 03:55, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Begging the question

• Jimbo, I explicitly vowed not to post on our discussion subpage again [4]; please don't force me to break my word by offering yet another "simple" "have you stopped beating your wife yet" question there (begging the question or circular reasoning).[5] I am surprised that you don't realise that what I did is a non-blockable offense; there's no question of changing policy. I do not believe it's in the interests of the project for me to continue the dialogue. Bishonen | talk 19:39, 3 July 2009 (UTC).

Here's an idea which will probably be deleted in no time. Why don't the both of you act like the adults you are and shake hands, step back, and admit you were both in the wrong. Believe it or not, it makes you a better person if you can do so. Jack forbes (talk) 23:32, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

That is the most simple, reasonable and mature solution to this mess. I urge both parties to heed Jack's good advice, for the better of all concerned, and even those of us who are not.:)--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 00:43, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Jimbo, I know your on line. Why do you think continuing this "feud" is doing wikipedia any good? Jack forbes (talk) 00:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it can be characterized as a "feud" in any way shape or form. We're having a discussion.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:25, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

A feud in who's mind? Please remember this is a wikipedia living person, this is verging on harrasment, please stop. (Off2riorob (talk) 00:13, 4 July 2009 (UTC))

Please stop? I'm trying to get the both of them to stop arguing. Perhaps if everyone told them that both of them were acting like children they would stop. But then, maybe I'm the only one willing to say it. Jack forbes (talk) 00:18, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Where you see a feud and arguing, I see a discussion. Perhaps it is better not to comment and to allow them to work it out. (Off2riorob (talk) 00:22, 4 July 2009 (UTC))

Perhaps you should take your own advice and stop discussing it. Jack forbes (talk) 00:30, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Childish admins are the worst enemy of a free encyclopedia, I'm sure we all can agree here. Kudos for Jimbo. --Taraborn (talk) 02:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Being presumptuous about other people's opinions is not civil. You may agree with what Jimbo did, but others may not, Taraborn. Jimbo, there is an ongoing, constructive discussion at Wikipedia:Civility/Poll. The consensus appears to disallow use of blocks for incivility. Jehochman ^Talk 02:50, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

What I see is a dramatic consensus for the current civility policy being too lenient. 23 votes for that, versus only 3 for too harsh, and 3 for just right. What's particularly interesting, though is that there are 26 votes for "unenforceable", though a detailed reading of the comments is that it is enforced unevenly. I believe that it is enforced unevenly, with socially powerful admins sometimes getting a free ride and support from friends for behavior that would get other people blocked.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:34, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't see consensus for anything (based on counting the votes on each side, consensus is 2/3 or more of votes[IMO]). Griffinofwales (talk) 03:00, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

In other words, despite Jimbo's declaration, there is no consensus to start punishing swearwords by blocks. To believe that short punitive blocks are useful for anything other than creation of drama looks to me like a newbie admin mistake, and I hope Jimbo has learned not to do it again. Kusma (talk) 07:46, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Kusma, it is not my position that we should "start punishing swearwords by blocks." I welcome your participation, but please be accurate. It is my position that admins should be held to a high standard of civility, and that engaging in egregious personal attacks (in this case, an *admin* *cursing* at someone in a dispute) is way way beyond where we should draw the line.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:36, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

This is what I was talking about before until it was ignored. If an admin doesn't thing an admin cursing and yelling is immature, then let him/her speak. Since there will probably be no response, I already know I am right. 75.91.164.188 (talk) 06:14, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

So how do you suggest we achieve this standard of civility? From your actions, it appeared as if you think short blocks after the fact would help. I am pretty sure they don't. Kusma (talk) 12:29, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

As always, we have a wide range of tools at our disposal, including the project-wide discussion we have been having for the past several days, commitments to principles, forgiveness of errors, short blocks, long blogs, bans. There is nothing new in this. The idea that it is radically impossible for us to continue to insist, as we always have (I am proposing nothing new) that admins in particular should be held to a very high standard of polite conduct, is not persuasive to me. In this particular case, it seems pretty clear to me that this particular block in this particular context very much did help. We now have a pretty wide consensus poll saying that virtually no one thinks that the civility policy is too strict - and many think it is too lenient.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:03, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The direct question has now been asked in that poll - WP:Civility/Poll#Simulated RFA question: would you block someone for calling another editor a "little shit"?. Ha! (talk) 10:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the question should be: How do we encourage new users to grow and learn, without discouraging experienced users who are (understandably) held to a higher degree of expectations? I personally think that we need to provide incentives to encourage people to strive to be admin. material, but do understand that not all people want that added level of responsibility. — Ched :  ?  13:06, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

• Let's start with a simple premise. Admins should treat all editors with respect and should not use curse words, or be deliberate rude and uncivil to other editors, no matter the provocation. In my opinion, anyone who disagrees with that statement should not be an admin, and if a majority, or even a large minority, of admins disagree, then I am working for the wrong web site. When an admin uses curse words against other editors, the prescribed process should be,

1. Discuss the situation with the admin, ask him or her to apologize and retract the curse words.
2. If the admin has a persistent problem with cursing and incivility, hold an RFC.
3. If after an RFC the problem continues, request Arbcom to intervene.

The question is then, Is there room for using blocks as step 1.5 or 2.5 of the process? If an admin is briefly blocked for incivility, is this likely to change the admin's behavior so that RFC or Arbitration is not necessary? Are brief blocks for incivility desirable to maintain the credibility of the admin corps in general even if they are unlikely to change the individual admin's behavior?

This is far from a settled question but it is not unreasonable to consider it. Thatcher 14:01, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

I think with the overwhelming majority of voters so far saying that civility policy is too lenient (and even more, at least count, saying that it is unenforceable as evidenced by uneven administration), this outlined process is much, much, too cautious. One reason for going really slow with inexperienced users is that they are not in positions of trust, and that they may not understand the culture that we desire. This sort of slow process is not enough to make it really clear that we are drawing a very firm line against that kind of behavior. User complaints about admin incivility are extremely important. We have this constant tension between "good authors" and "good admins" (partly trumped up by internal politics, of course, but also partly identifying a real phenomenon), and it is made much worse if admins are setting a bad example. There are times when people should be immediately given a block, to illustrate the point clearly: admin abuse of users is not going to be tolerated, not least because admin abuse undermines the work of good admins who have to deal with nonsense every day.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:44, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah, but that is not the base premise, Thatcher. The base premise is either that

• All editors should treat each other with respect and should not use curse words, or be deliberately rude and uncivil to other editors, no matter the provocation.

or

• All actions and statements of an editor with administrative permissions are to be considered an extension of their administrative role.

Now, either one of these is fine, but if we are going to change the long-held site philosophy that administrators are simply regular editors with a few extra buttons, I'd like to know that now so that I can prepare for the onslaught of cases. If an administrator's incivility is more serious than the incivility of a non-administrator, then by extension an administrator's making a NPOV edit or using a non-reliable source is also more serious than that of a non-administrator. I am concerned that this emphasis on the evils of cursing, regardless of who is doing it, will have no effect on the civility of the site, but will reinforce the perception that use of euphemisms, sarcasm, and plurium interrogationum is acceptable. Risker (talk) 14:49, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

My understanding of the high standard required of admins is that they should not give out punitive blocks six hours after a one-off action, and should take care to ensure that a warning has been given. Shifting standards of behaviour, when occasional outbursts under severe pressure have been tolerated by the community in the past, could more reasonably be achieved by such warning rather than block first, discuss later. Risker puts the issues well. . dave souza, talk 14:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

• For Christ's sake! This whole thing was nothing more than Jimbo Wales cracking the whip and saying "I'm in charge" - It was hardly a serious matter, or even one that concerned him. Yet, he just leapt in from nowhere because he knows that Bishonen is friends with a group of editors who want to see some sweeping reforms of his powers. Nothing more and nothing less. He wanted to set an example and throw his weight about. He could not kick the others as there was no reason, and she put herself in his firing line, so he kicked her instead. Like a spoilt child. Sadly for him, most people see straight through him. He has twisted and squirmed to give his actions higher motives, but sadly there were none. Giano (talk) 15:37, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Giano, I would like to remind you that Wikipedia has a policy against engaging in personal attacks. Please do not engage in personal attacks against me. Your behavior simply serves to poison an otherwise useful discussion. I would like to politely ask you to improve.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:58, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

• I would like to politely ask you to improve, I am not the one who leaps about blocking people and then trying to justify my actions - am I? Giano (talk) 18:45, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry that you prefer insulting me rather than addressing the facts. Go read the policy, Giano, and read my explanation for the block. It was a good block, done for a good reason, and I think it's been very successful in terms of clarifying policy and also provoking one of the most productive community discussions we have had about this issue in a long long time.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:58, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

• It was onviously not a good block and nobody is insulting you. Disagreeing with you and your behaviour is not insulting you. If you require a demonstration, of the difference between insulting and commenting, please just ask. If the block were 100% correct you would not be agreeing not to block anyone for 6 months as a result - would you? According to you, it's always a good block when you make it; well I have news for you - it was not. You may be the founder of Wikipedia (I have no view on co-founding or whatever - it is immaterial), but that does not make you omnipotent and permitted to stomp about blocking people without others being allowed to comment upon it - or is that against "policy" too? As a result of your overbearing and blinkered attitude, many are now doubting wether you should even have access to such powers. This matter has cost you a lot or respect in places where you need it most (you know exactly what I mean by that). The little here today gone tomorrow editors who write nothing and contribute even less are not the one's keeping you and Wikipedia where you are. I would advise that a wise man would remember that and learn a little humility. Giano (talk) 06:07, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Calling someone a "spoilt little prince" with "nauseating sentiments" [6], a thug [7], "His Omnipotent Majesty" (sarcastically) [8], a "little boy with his finger in the damm" [9] and "a spoilt child" [10] is insulting. It's an overtly negative form of rhetorical argumentation that is designed to attack Jimbo's character. It's not needed and you could easily tone it down. Ha! (talk) 11:47, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

• Ha, you really must pay more attention to what is written, likening and accusing are quite different, especially when supplied with an option to change. However, one could argue that Jimbo's "toxic personality" jibes have forfeited him to the write to shout "insult". I am not currently argueing that, but I am sure there are those that would. Giano (talk) 11:55, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I'll pay more attention to the semantics. Could you consider the reasonable request to tone down the language, desist from the attacks and engage in good faith discussion instead please? Ha! (talk) 12:22, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

If it comes down to a choice between blocking or non-blocking foul language directed at others? Then I'd stick with the 'blocking' side. If we allow such verbal behaviour, then it'll only get worst. GoodDay (talk) 16:45, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

No one is suggesting that such verbal behaviour should be allowed, what's in question is whether a block without prior discussion is for the good of the project. Calling someone the equivalent of a twit earned one admin a 24 hour block, reduced to 20 minutes per consensus at ANI. The upshot of which is that the admin has retired, a decision probably hastened by the dramaz over a brief and admittedly unacceptable outburst under the stress of dealing with very difficult and repetitive problems. Some of us find it easier to restrain our language at all times, but then some of us don't think its worth the candle to take on these difficult areas of work. Volunteers acting in good faith are expendable. So it goes. . dave souza, talk 17:25, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Somehow I'd missed this whole flap until today.

Maybe this is why

Maybe it's because I was blocked for 24 hours a few days later for making a one-character correction to an article while under a topic ban declared by an involved admin, but supported by a pile-on of editors who had previously called for my ban because I had RfCd an admin for action while involved, a complaint that was confirmed by ArbComm. I'm quite sure that if I called certain editors names that I might be able to justify, even literally, as distinct from "shit," which can't be so justified, I'd be blocked for longer. The admin who blocked me previously claimed that it would be "stupid" to block ScienceApologist for making spelling corrections while banned. I did nothing to create disruption over this, and I only cite it now to show how biased even fairly extensive community response can be. It was all discussed at AN or AN/I (not taken there by me) with opinions being given that were the exact opposite of the kinds of opinions I've seen about this Bishonen affair, and I asked supporters to not defend me, since it was clear that consensus wasn't going to be found there -- except to ban me, or, if supporters showed up, to possibly prevent a clear consensus, not to reverse it -- and since ArbComm was going to be necessary anyway, why allow debate to continue, wasting so much editor time? My being banned from one article for a month simply wasn't worth the fuss. (But admin action while involved is worth the fuss, just as taking a stand on incivility, especially by an admin, is worth the fuss.)

Given Bishonen's high reputation, well-deserved, and long experience, I was shocked to see her response to a block that had no practical effect except to call her attention to the seriousness of the behavior. I'm suspecting that you were as surprised and as disappointed as I in seeing her fail to take the high road. She could have made a powerful statement for the welfare of the project if she had thanked you, and it would have cost her nothing. Opportunity lost. And I see what I've seen before when admins err and are called on it: many "friends" tell her that she's done nothing wrong, instead of what real friends would do: supportively encourage their friend to wake up. You are right, there is a toxic culture. And, yes, you are also right, you did not call her a "toxic personality." Apparently, we have a whole phalanx of "editors" who can't read and parse English, when their tribal sensibilities are involved. This is not going to be easy, Mr. Wales. I'll see you in New York. I have some ideas.

To answer Dave souza's question, a short block should be practically harmless. I've said before that if you have never been blocked, you aren't trying hard enough to improve the project, and the first time I was seriously blocked, I wrote "You don't know how happy you have made me!" It wasn't understood, which often happens when I'm brief. Bishonen was blocked before, for a few minutes, "to experience it." Since she was probably asleep during your three hours, maybe it should have been a 24-hour block, so she'd actually know. It sucks, and for some personalities, it can be devastating, but we could handle it all better. If there is any editor who thinks that the project will collapse if they are blocked for 24 hours, who thinks that we should raise or even allow a huge disruption over a short "bad block," maybe they should be indeffed. Jimbo, I see that you've never been blocked except through compromised admin accounts, with a one-second exception. Obviously, you have not been trying hard enough! --Abd (talk) 03:49, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

 

♦   POESY   ♦

 

Admins live according to a code of

chivalry and honor. But they would have

kept it laissez-faire if they could've --

'specially regs as from "the founder":

'Cause he's willing let abscond-eh

from the Wiki, those that want-ta.

'Tho his druthers be that they not flounder;

"No, please stay!" says he, "And help us mount a

more-collegial-than-not encounter,

keeping happy, able people 'round here!"

 

By the way, I'm thankful for Abd's pointers

to the Jimbo-Bishonen rejoinders'

serving up such heartfelt, smart reminders:

 

What's more powerful than able, kind words?

 

---JUSTMEHERENOW.   ↜Just M E here , now 10:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

 

Blocks for admin abuse

I think two things are being conflated in current discussions around the wiki. Blocks are for editing abuse. Admin abuse should be met with loss of sysop access. It would be very straightfoward for you to state that admins may not swear at or otherwise abuse users. If such abuses happen, and there is no ambiguity, you may remove sysop access temporarily or permanently. I think this approach is better than using 3 hour blocks. Jehochman ^Talk 18:41, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I am generally sympathetic to this view, except that - traditionally, and correctly I think - being de-adminned is a much more serious thing than a mere 3 hour block. What I nearly did in this case was removed the sysop bit, with the notation "eligible to participate in a new RfA". Should I have done that instead? I would be interested to hear views.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:44, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I would strongly advise against summary desyoppings in non-emergencies. Leave desysoppings to ArbCom, that way the admin in question has an opportunity to make a proper defence. I don't see why a desysopping would be considered here, as Jehochman says desysoppings are for admin abuse. Last time I checked the civility policy applied equally to everyone, so incivility is editing abuse, not admin abuse. That you expect higher standards from admins doesn't make it admin abuse, IMO, although I think all experienced editors should be held to the same standards, admin bit or not. I do accept different standards for less experienced editors that may deserve a warning or two before being slapped with a block. IMO an experienced editor calling another user a "little shit" (I assume that is the comment we are talking about?) should be treated with a 3 hour block in the first instance (yes, it is a largely punitive block, I don't have a problem with that - punishment serves as a deterrent which is a good preventative measure, the distinction commonly made between preventative and punitive blocks is meaningless). --Tango (talk) 18:54, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I think removal of the bit pending discussion with the admin, and an undertaking not to repeat the abuse, might have worked better. Sending them back to RFA would probably have been too harsh. I think it would also be a good idea to publish a code of conduct for admins that lists bright lines that when crossed may result in an immediate loss of sysop access. There are also less obvious types of abuse and misuse that are best addressed by ArbCom. Setting expectations before acting is very important. (Cursing at a user with lower access levels is a form of abuse, for sure.) Jehochman ^Talk 19:01, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

@Jimbo. If you are asking for views, might I ask how you would like to receive them? Would you prefer email, a posting to your talk page, an edit to an existing page, or is there a page that you'd prefer we centralize the discussion on? — Ched :  ?  22:12, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Email would be fine. I think that the civility poll that's been going on is a great place to discuss this as a part of the broader question. Posting here is problematic, in that people tend to want to debate very specific details here in a way that I think is not helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:55, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

In case you weren't aware Jimbo, arbitrator Risker has unilateraly removed an entire section of that page, my Simulated Rfa Question, based on the fact that it in itself was incivil. Given that you, and many other experienced editors including former arbitrators, had already commented on it without issue, then I think that is a pretty clear sign that the community understanding of what 'civility' is more broken, and the fractures are eminating higher up, than many had perhaps first thought. MickMacNee (talk) 13:03, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

• I think anything that lessens drama and causes editors to hesitate before walking the plank can only be a good idea. Giano (talk) 13:22, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

• With all due respect to Arbitrator Risker, in the long run her deleting that entire item from the poll, after the item had drawn very extensive commentary about a subject that is of concern to the community—wiping out 20–30 editors' good faith comments on all sides of the issue, including Jimbo's—is causing more, rather than less drama about the matter. And that drama is further exacerbated by another admin closing the Talk page discussion of Risker's action: Wikipedia talk:Civility/Poll#Risker's removal of discussion. Silencing community members who express themselves on important policies and their application breeds resentment, not trust and collegiality.
  
  As other remaining sections of the discussion on the poll page shows, there is a widespread perception that admins and other, favored, "experienced" editors get away with incivility, while sanctions are more liberally imposed on "ordinary" Wikipedians. Personally, I believe this perception is exaggerated, but not entirely baseless. However, the whole Bishonen incident—her flagrant misconduct, the mild sanction of a 3-hour block, and the expressed outrage of Bishonen and several supporters over the 3-hour block—are Exhibit A in support of that perception. If an "ordinary" editor had called another editor a "little shit"—even without Bishonen's additional misconduct, subsequent unrepentant attitude, and 6 weeks of whining and campaigning against Jimbo—no one would be upset or surprised by a 3-day block or worse. No one would be questioning whether the block was preventative (OK), punitive (not OK), or exemplary (not OK). And if Jimbo himself blocked the plebeian-editor, without warning, no one would be clamoring to remove his "block button" or other nonsense.
  
  In my opinion, the entire Bishonen incident, which is widely known and widely discussed, is one of the main reasons behind this re-examination of the civility policy and its enforcement (as well as a few other policy proposals). That is why the topic is relevant to the discussion. It was not primarily an ad hominem attack on Bishonen, as those who want to sweep it all under the rug maintain. And it feeds the perception that there is a double standard, and that the admins watch each others' back. As I say, I believe the perception is overstated. But the way admins rallied to Bishonen's defense, and attacked Jimbo for a 3-hour block, is one instance where the facts matched the perception. Finell (Talk) 14:28, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

"Even without Bishonen's........6 weeks of whining and campaigning against Jimbo". Hmmm. Are you sure about that? Since her block Bishonen has hardly edited, save the discussion instigated by John Vandenberg on her talk subpage. It is undeniable that there is disquiet in the ranks, but I certainly wouldn't lay it at Bishonen's door. Clearly the civility issue needs an airing, if only to expose the widely differing views the community has about it. --Joopercoopers (talk) 17:09, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Jimbo blocked Bishonen for 3 hours on May 22. Bishonen's last two salvos were on July 3, on this talk page.[11][12] That is 6 weeks. If Bishonen had simply endured her 3-hour block and then returned to business as usual, this issue would have ended on May 22. It is Bishonen who created this controversy and kept alive. Since her block expired, almost all of of Bishonen's "contributions" to Wikipedia have been her arguing, arguing, and arguing about Jimbo's 3-hour block. Throughout, Bishonen very skillfully shifted the issue from her personal attack of Daedalus969 (who deserved a reprimand, but not to be cursed at and then then repeatedly baited) to whether Jimbo's 3-hour block conformed to the letter of the blocking policy—she framed the issue as a misuse of the block to punish her—and rallied other admins and friends to join her campaign against Jimbo.

I don't know if Jimbo looked at Bishonen's prior edit history before he blocked her, but she also lost it a week earlier. Bishonen was supporting an RfA (the candidate was previously de-sysoped; the RfA failed) and got into an argument with someone who opposed it. Again, in addition to cursing at the other editor, she expressed anger that the other editor disregarded Bishonen's "advice" to stop arguing against the RfA. The discussion on Bishonen's talk page, which Bishonen later deleted, shows her uncivil conduct and contemptuous attitude toward another editor who crossed her[13] (indents omitted):

You mean supporters, no? And the talk page only shows the level of hate that Everyking will put forth, so I doubt it really supports your argument in any kind of regard. Thankfully, Crats don't do what Everyking would do (merely count votes) so your argument definitely wont hold up. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:46, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

It definitely won't, will it? That's interesting. Are you suffering from some kind of hysteria, to be addressing me like that after I advise you to not—not—keep blathering against the opposers [sic: should be "supporters"]? Or are you trying to avoid the childishness of immediately doing what I asked you not to do, by posting on my page instead of on the RFA? Or, Machiavellian thought, are you deliberately making yourself look absurd in order to make Everyking look the better? Are you secretly on his side? Whichever it is, and, believe me, I don't really want to know, piss off my page and stay off. Bishonen | talk 00:17, 13 May 2009 (UTC).

Hrmph. A crude edit summary ["Har har. Piss off."] is fine in small doses. Use one too much and you ruin its mystique. --MZMcBride (talk) 02:10, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

The mystique is perhaps not necessary, MZMcBride. Got any suggestions? What do you think of "Fuck off"? Bishonen | talk 20:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC).

Bishonen's abusive behaviour toward editors, her continuing argument that Jimbo's 3-hour block of her was unjustified, and, most distressing, other admins' supporting Bishonen throughout her campaign, are germane to the community poll on the adequacy of Wikipeida's civility policy, the adequacy of the policy's enforcement, and particularly whether selective enforcement unfairly favors admins. Suppressing discussion of these issues of legitimate community concern is damaging to the already frayed morale of many active editors, and also ineffective. If there is concern that the poll questions should have been phrased more neutrally, that can be fixed (provided the facts are stated accurately). But the questions and the discussion should be restored to the poll. In fact, the civility policy poll is probably the least confrontational forum for discussing the matter. But if community discussion continues to be suppressed there, it will arise elsewhere. That is what happens when debate is suppressed, and why suppression is counterproductive. Finell (Talk) 06:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Bishonen was encouraged back to wikipedia, albeit in a limited form, by the urging of John Vandenburg to attempt mediation with Jimbo. For you to characterise that mediation as 'campaigning' is absurd. She and Jimbo have opposing views - that's debate, the preferred method of conflict resolution around here the last time I checked. --Joopercoopers (talk) 11:33, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Six weeks of complaining over a 3-hour block, when her behavior was way out of line, then saying that she is ending the discussion while encouraging her supporters to continue the battle for her[14] is beyond a legitimate debate. Bishonen did not act as though she were in a mediation; she acted as a combatant, so the attempt at mediation failed.

I believe that discussion, even if it turns into debate, is the preferred method of conflict resolution on Wikipedia. That is why I am upset that a relevant debate was suppressed at the community discussion of WP:CIVIL.

Jimbo did the right thing. I would welcome Bishonen back to the project after a rest and an attitude adjustment. But she doesn't need anyone's welcome, does she? If she prefers to whine and pout, rather than continue to do productive work, that is her choice. Unfortunately, Wikdpedia loses a lot of good editiors because of dramas like these. Many of them are non-combatants who leave in disgust at what they see, often silently. We need to lower out toleration of this behavior to create an environment that is more conducive to productive collaboration, and less vulnerable to games. One of our pillars is crumbling and needs repair.

By the way, what is the Bishzilla alter ego all about? Does she have other alter egos? Finell (Talk) 20:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, this may seem a little stupid..... dave souza, talk 21:00, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Regarding blocks for admin abuse -- I agree, people definitely should be blocked for abusing admins. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:55, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I wholehartedly agree—and vice versa. Finell (Talk) 21:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

New policy proposal - Rehabilitation of offenders

Jimbo, you may be interested in a policy I have just proposed: Wikipedia:Rehabilitation of offenders. --Tango (talk) 01:18, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

You have my full, complete, unreserved support for this. I think it is a brilliant idea. It could and should very well be that checkusers (or similar) can still see the ancient history, i.e. it might not be "burned" forever, but there is no reason for it to remain in the logs.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that. It doesn't seem to be getting much support on the talk page. I've been trying to respond to people's concerns there, but it would help if you did the same. --Tango (talk) 15:40, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Did you read these objections, Jimbo? While this may seem like a wonderful idea on the surface, its flaws are fatal and numerous. —David Levy 15:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi, no, I haven't read the objections. I think I got to it pretty quickly after Tango posted it, and no one had commented. As Tango says (below), obviously it needs to be discussed and efforts made to fix the flaws. I think the basic concept is sound: we should have a statute of limitations on past bad behavior, particularly when the behavior was in some ways minor. I'm going to bed now, but I'll look at the objections tomorrow and see if I can think of anything useful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:27, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Which is why we usually discuss proposals before voting on them. I expect the flaws can be overcome. --Tango (talk) 17:12, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Some of the flaws are potentially resolvable, but it's my position that others are inherent and insurmountable. Ignoring the emboldened votes and simply reading the underlying concerns doesn't change that. —David Levy 17:54, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Request for clarification

Hello Jimmy,

Before I begin I would like to sincerely thank you for co-founding such a wonderful project. Wikipedia has greatly aided my quest for increasing my knowledge on most subjects I can think of. I am trying to find a role to contribute in a meaningful way to Wikipedia and to the community that supports it, which will probably take some time and considerable effort. This paragraph is starting to feel like brown-nosing, so I will move on...

Here are my questions:

1. What do you believe your role is in Wikipedia?

   I think I am at my best when I act as firm carrier of our values, most particularly having to do with our long traditions within the community of both firm insistence on a congenial atmosphere, and tolerance and forgiveness for those who have not lived up to those values but wish to try again. I act, also, in my traditional role, to help encourage the growth over time of institutions that function well. My role is to disappear, but neither too quickly, nor too slowly.

2. What do you feel is your responsibility to contribute to Wikipedia and the Wikimedia foundation?

   I'm not sure that I fully understand the question, but I will give my best answer. It is my chosen responsibility (not a duty imposed by anyone, but something that I desire to do) to help the community create a free (in the sense of GNU) high quality encyclopedia in all the languages of the world. I fulfill that responsibility by maintain a firm and hopefully useful voice for quality and kindness in the English Wikipedia and around the world, and by doing what I can in my travels to meet with community members all around the world to encourage a friendly and positive community atmosphere. I obviously also play a strong role (for the Foundation) in both fundraising and in global awareness.

3. How is your role to the English Wikipedia different to those of other languages?

   Well, I don't speak any other languages except for German, and that so badly that I can't contribute or read anything nuanced in German. So I can't play a direct role. As it turns out, English runs into various sorts of institutional problems long before the other languages, simply because it is a lot bigger. And so I hope that our very hard work here in thoughtfully creating institutional structures that work, will pay off for other languages as they can learn from our successes - and failures.

4. What operating system do you use?

   I use OS X at the present time on my laptop. I use Ubuntu on my personal servers.

5. And finally, what in all powerful Atheismo's name do you do in your spare time?

   I am learning Flash programming, in order to teach it to my daughter, and together we are having a lot of fun trying to make a game. I spend as much time with her as I can, but it is difficult, given all my other obligations.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:40, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I know there are other sources on this website which might clarify these questions (including your user page), but I would love to hear from you directly.

Sincerely,

Mad Pierrot (talk) 04:53, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Copyright & fair-use rationale of SVGified logo - new policy on SVGified images needed

You are invited to participate in an interesting discussion at Wikipedia talk:Image use policy#File:Man Utd FC .svg. We are having difficulties to find a concrete consensus regarding the above matter. As you can see it involves some hundred thousands over articles and possibly millions. Please, your comments & suggestion are very much appeciated. Thank you Arteyu ? _{Blame it on me !} 18:52, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

It is certainly interesting, but it is an issue I've never given any thought, and so coming to a snap opinion is not a good idea. I think I'll just sit back and watch the discussion and reflect on it over some time before I come to any opinion.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:32, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Wow! Now we are supposed to be thoughtful before we jump in with our opinions??? Just before, you insisted on us not driving off others with rude insensitive language and now you want us to actually think before we give our golden opinions??? What is this place coming to? It is as if you wanted us to actually be a credible encyclopedia. That goes against everything I ever learned at Wikipedia Review. :) WAS 4.250 (talk) 20:48, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

The sarcasm really isn't helpful. Finell (Talk) 03:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Unless I've misread WAS 4.250's post, he/she praised Jimbo by playfully feigning outrage over positive goings-on. In other words, this appears to be friendly facetiousness, not sarcasm. —David Levy 08:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. Jimbo is doing a lot of things right. And Wikipedia Review is so often so completely wrong it is a scream. I especially laugh hard at their continued attempts to anticipate exactly which day Wikipedia will self-destruct, when by the original goals it has long since already achieved its goals and much more. Reminds me of the USSR's propaganda of the imminent demise of the West. WAS 4.250 (talk) 09:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Jimbo, you should've asked some experts for their opinion regarding to the above issue, the issue about images copyright is huge. 60.50.4.102 (talk) 08:12, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to disturb you Jimbo, at first I just thought that you would like to give some suggestions in regard to the above discussion Arteyu ? _{Blame it on me !} 08:31, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Scientific articles in Wikipedia

Hello. Unfortunately some of the wikipedians who are not familiar with the scientific subjects try to delete the important articles of Wikipedia. As a researcher, I believe that the new articles published in the scientific journals are the best references in Wikipedia. The problem comes when the wikipedians who have never even seen a scientific article related to these subjects, judge that these articles in wikipedia are not important. Do you have an alternative to overcome this problem? Javanbakht (talk) 04:50, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:Ageism

Hi Jimmy,

You've probably never seen me around before, but as you may already yourself now fully be aware, Juliancolton is up for bureaucratship right now, and one of the recurring themes among some of the opposers is that he's a minor. I'm curious to know a) what your personal views are towards WP:Ageism, and b) do you know of any legal issues with minors being bureaucrats (or do I need to go ask Mike on this)?

Thanks, Matt (talk) 06:40, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Gerald Walpin

Hi. Would you please add the following paragraph to the Gerald Walpin article? I cannot do so, because I have been topic banned from political articles for three months:

In June, 2009, President Barack Obama fired Walpin, after Walpin accused Sacramento mayor Kevin Johnson and St. HOPE Academy, a non-profit organization, of misuse of AmeriCorps funding to pay for school-board political activities. According to Associated Press, Johnson is a friend of Obama's. Johnson and St. HOPE agreed to repay half of the $847,000 in grant money they had received from AmeriCorps between 2004 and 2007. In a letter to Congress, the White House said that Walpin was fired because he was "confused, disoriented, unable to answer questions and exhibited other behavior that led the Board to question his capacity to serve." A bipartisan group of 145 current and former public officials, attorneys, and legal scholars signed a letter that was sent to the White House, which defended Walpin, said the criticisms of him were not true, and said that his firing was politically motivated. The letter can be read here.

Grundle2600 (talk) 10:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)