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m Signing comment by Supadupaman7 - "→‎Susan Boyle: "
article has been viewed 82,714 times
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*'''Delete''': [[WP:BLP1E]] - subject is known for only one event in which she hasn't even won. [[User:JamesBurns|JamesBurns]] ([[User talk:JamesBurns|talk]]) 03:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
*'''Delete''': [[WP:BLP1E]] - subject is known for only one event in which she hasn't even won. [[User:JamesBurns|JamesBurns]] ([[User talk:JamesBurns|talk]]) 03:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:As a thought, Boyle could be argued to be notable for two events, firstly for the performance that was reported in the first wave of coverage about her, and secondly for the level of world-wide interest that her performance generated. Stories are now analysing this coverage and discussing this reaction and what it says about our society and its preoccupations (such as [http://blog.seattlepi.com/theconstantvalentine/archives/166554.asp?from=blog_last3 this]). If this had just been a jaw-dropping performance, then perhaps BLP1E might apply, but it has gone beyond that now - the story is a story in itself. [[User:TimVickers|Tim Vickers]] ([[User talk:TimVickers|talk]]) 03:47, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:As a thought, Boyle could be argued to be notable for two events, firstly for the performance that was reported in the first wave of coverage about her, and secondly for the level of world-wide interest that her performance generated. Stories are now analysing this coverage and discussing this reaction and what it says about our society and its preoccupations (such as [http://blog.seattlepi.com/theconstantvalentine/archives/166554.asp?from=blog_last3 this]). If this had just been a jaw-dropping performance, then perhaps BLP1E might apply, but it has gone beyond that now - the story is a story in itself. [[User:TimVickers|Tim Vickers]] ([[User talk:TimVickers|talk]]) 03:47, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - Whether everyone realizes it or not, the frantic opining by editor after editor about whether Boyle is notable or not hints strongly at her notability. Where did all these editors come from? Some regularly opine in AfD discussions. But it's obvious that most are here because they heard about Susan Boyle. --[[User:Boston|Boston]] ([[User talk:Boston|talk]]) 03:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - Whether everyone realizes it or not, the frantic opining by editor after editor about whether Boyle is notable or not hints strongly at her notability. Where did all these editors come from? Some regularly opine in AfD discussions. But it's obvious that most are here because they heard about Susan Boyle. --[[User:Boston|Boston]] ([[User talk:Boston|talk]]) 03:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC) - PS -- as of last count, her Wikipedia article has been viewed 82,714 times!
*'''Keep''' I learned about this woman through Hong Kong media (in Chinese), where nobody would otherwise be interested about the show BGT at all. It is one thing for a British show to recieve international coverage from English (language) media, but when it get Asian media's attention then it should be big enough a reason for the article to stay. I don't know about WP jargons; I just know Susan Boyle is no longer some woman, but more a pheonemon. [[Special:Contributions/64.198.200.71|64.198.200.71]] ([[User talk:64.198.200.71|talk]]) 03:55, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' I learned about this woman through Hong Kong media (in Chinese), where nobody would otherwise be interested about the show BGT at all. It is one thing for a British show to recieve international coverage from English (language) media, but when it get Asian media's attention then it should be big enough a reason for the article to stay. I don't know about WP jargons; I just know Susan Boyle is no longer some woman, but more a pheonemon. [[Special:Contributions/64.198.200.71|64.198.200.71]] ([[User talk:64.198.200.71|talk]]) 03:55, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


Revision as of 04:15, 16 April 2009

Susan Boyle

Susan Boyle (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

At this moment, she does not satisfy notability guidelines. Yes, she may have been noted by the media, but she is just "another auditionee" on a TV talent show. D.M.N. (talk) 12:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC) - nominator withdrew -- see below.[reply]

On behalf of the policy based merge and delete votes aleady given, and in light of the fact this has already run for 3 days, and in light of the fact that most keep votes do not mention a single policy, I have reversed your withdrawal as highly innappropriate. If this is reverted, then if necessary, I will procedurally renominate it myself. MickMacNee (talk) 15:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. She should satisfy notability guidelines. She is already signed in the last four days with Simon Cowell and Syco (a subsidiary of Sony Music). He scooped her up over the weekend. Her first album will be released later this year. She will be a singer with some renown. Her YouTube hits moved from 250,000 per the April 14th denoted hits to over 9,000,000 on one YouTube video alone with dozens of more videos of her performance available with thousands of hits (even millions and hundreds of thousands) on each individual one. Readers would be better served with access to her personal information, and the ability for editors to update her site from this one as she gains in popularity with the release of a CD rather than recreating this site from scratch in a few months. We keep sites for those events and persons in history who receive less than 9,000,000 hits of interest in three days. This seems the definition of some notoriety. I first watched her on FoxNews. She has also been on MSNBC (news outlet and internet sites), CNN, NBC, and ABC. She is already denoted on the website of the little town and in other places from the London Times, Kansas City Star, Undercover Music News, and 2,390,000 fan sites that have sprung up since 04/11/09 on this woman as of today 04/15/09. Editors have been busy. For reference, United States President Woodrow Wilson has had 4,530,000 sites denoting him and he has been dead fifty years before the internet began.

The idea that the merger and deletion votes would over-rule these reasons for keeping this article is inappropriate. Keep votes during this small time period demonstrate that this is not an non-controversial deletion, so proposed deletion process rules need not apply. Those who propose a merger could list it there, however, the cut and paste repairs would be more time consuming.

These articles referencing her from her city to Cowell or BGT to her own page are not written in the same language. Their articles do not cover the same information. The one on her is a better collection of her personally. The page does not need a redirect. The articles appear tagged appropriately. The articles do not appear to have copyright violations. It is not patent nonsense, rather historiography in nature. This does not appear to be a sandbox test run. It is blatantly not vandalism, recreated from deleted material, or by banned users. There appears to be no technical deletions needed and none of it appears to be dependent on a non-existent page or deleted page. So why kill her dream?slm1202000 (talk) 03:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're applying rules arbitrary here. Wikipedia:Notability (people) clearly states that entertainers with a large fan base are notable. By arbitrarily not considering YouTube views you're conveniently rejecting a significant indication of fan following. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Devijvers (talk • contribs) 18:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per WP:GNG: "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." Sources are reliable, independent, and coverage is significant. That was my thought process. --\/\/slack (talk) 14:57, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Additional comment: I encourage everyone to look at this column on Ms. Boyle. She has progressed beyond fame for a single event. Her fame is in her biography and story now, and in that symbolism for the possibility of that despite age or looks. She isn't famous because she can sing - many can. She is famous for being who she is. Individuals with full bios who were killed on 9/11 are the same way. WP:BLP1E is about those from news stories. She is clearly beyond a news story. --\/\/slack (talk) 02:50, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Youtube does not establish notability. This has been repeated countless times. Antivenin 16:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, but the Times and the Telegraph combined do establish notability. R3ap3R.inc (talk) 17:42, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep She's famous and will be more so over time. On the news tonight. Scifiintel (talk) 02:50, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As for YouTube, the awards that this clip recieved already should make it notable:


I oppose merging; I will do a little legwork and expand it, I just did a little... let some of the media catch up, the performance wasn't even 24 hours ago yet. While I always strive to maintain a NPOV, I must point out the sheer quality of her performance... standing ovation from the judges, the entire crowd, after just the first vocal left her lips. TR3ap3R.inc (talk) 16:04, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As you mentioned yourself, you're not looking at this from a NPOV. Her performance must have been amazing, but that doesn't mean she deserves her own article in an encyclopedia. That would mean deleting it if she messes up her song one day. Antivenin 16:33, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy keep is NOT applicable here. There are enough people !voting for delete. Antivenin 16:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Also, please refrain from !voting twice. Antivenin 16:31, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
they voted when it was a one sentence stub; read the reasoning. R3ap3R.inc (talk) 17:41, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Also, over 50,000 Ghits for Susan Boyle in the past 30 days. R3ap3R.inc (talk) 18:13, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Added a ton more refs and related pages, including The Herald, Reddit, and CNET (news.com) R3ap3R.inc (talk) 18:33, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I'm counting at least four dozen stories from a number of reliable sources on Google News primarily discussing the subject of this article. It seems her notability is not dependent on the show itself, which would rule out merging the singer's article into the show's article. Notability may not be temporary, but our ability to distinguish notability may be temporarily clouded, so I say keep for now, subject to review once her "long-term" notability is clearer.   user:j    (aka justen)   19:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
At the moment its BLP1E as far as I can tell. Until she wins or finishes in the runner-up spot in the competition, this should be deleted. D.M.N. (talk) 19:20, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Even if she loses next round right away, she will have at least as much notability as Gary Brolsma. — Preceding unsigned comment added by R3ap3R.inc (talk • contribs) 19:28, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm having trouble squaring that policy with people on this list. --\/\/slack (talk) 21:07, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Um, she has had one audition, she is no where near the final shows on TV, hence why BLP1E applies. D.M.N. (talk) 07:44, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
At the risk of being contrary, I don't think this coverage is based on an event (otherwise she would be no more notable than any of the myriad of bad singers who audition for any of those shows). And I hate to pull out an other stuff, but William Hung, anyone? But, in any event, I see no need to rush through a delete. I believe she is notable at this point, but it will be easier to distinguish whether that notability is tied to a single event or not in the near future.   user:j    (aka justen)   19:47, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This makes sense. --\/\/slack (talk) 21:09, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What's a Snow keep? R3ap3R.inc (talk) 20:47, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:Snow. Looie496 (talk) 20:52, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • procedural keep No real opinion on this, but clearly deletion should be off the table. There is an obvious redirect target if people are worried about BLP1E so this doesn't really belong at AfD. This isn't AfR. Hobit (talk) 23:10, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - DO NOT DELETE THIS --If wikipedia is ever to have any credibility as a source for the people as opposed to stuffy academia, this entry totally belongs to be here. She has already touched thousands, and the ball is rolling, even if she by some fluke shouldn't win there will be records and concerts in her future, the word is already spreading like wildfire across twitter,facebook, email and even word of mouth on the street. Today the UK, tomorrow the world. I don't care what Wikipedia guideline might support the deletion, then that guideline should be removed. --IceHunter (talk) 00:31, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep She is no longer "just another auditionee" on a talent show. She has accomplished something that is newsworthy on a worldwide scale, more so than many contestants from the past who may have gone farther in the contest. This is not about how she's doing on the awards program. It is about the cultural significance of her performance, which will be remembered long after this particular round of the show has passed, regardless of the final results. If nothing else, she is a YouTube phenomenon, similar to Gary Brolsma (who's Wikipedia entry is not in danger of deletion). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimvanm (talk • contribs) 02:43, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for now May end up being a flash-in-the-pan, but deletion now would be premature. Plenty of third-party coverage, much more than for your typical contestant in a show like this. OhNoitsJamie Talk 04:15, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • More Info: As of the end of 12 April 2009, the YouTube video was the single most viewed video of the day, the single most favorited video of the day, and one of the highest rated videos of the day. The submitter was awarded the most subscribtions of the day as well. See also the updated infobox following thisR3ap3R.inc (talk) 04:43, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't believe that, as an anonymous IP address, my vote counts in an AfD. If it does, I would vote keep. However, I'll note either way for the record that Wikipedia's notability policy for music states that "[a] musician or ensemble (note that this includes a [...] singer [...] ) is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria [...] Has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician or ensemble itself and reliable." A search on Google News for articles where both the terms "Susan Boyle" and "Dreamed a Dream" are present result in 24 separate press mentions. Running a search for "Susan Boyle" and "Britain's Got Talent" yields 27 press mentions, some of which are separate from the first batch of results. Notability has, I daresay, been established multiple times as a result. On a separate note, I firmly believe Wikipedia has now overbalanced itself on the deletionist-inclusionist debate; where once it erred far too much on the inclusionist side (list of words Ewoks said in Return of the Jedi!), it now is far too deletionist, to a point where these constant acts of hairtrigger overdeletionism consistently make Wikipedia look rather foolish to the public eye. 207.181.228.210 (talk) 05:11, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Wikipedia will always get torpedoed by everyone for one reason or another, either it's "look at this garbage they've got floating around, idiots" or "they're deleting WHAT!? Frigging wikinazis..". Doesn't mean that we don't need to keep tinkering with things, but there will never, ever be a balance which suits the vast majority. This is a group discussion initiated by one editor after all, on a project which houses millions of articles ministered by thousands of people, so if the world says "look at what Wikipedia's doing" they've misunderstood what's going on here from the outset. Someoneanother 23:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per loads of independent sourcing. BLP1E should be applied to negative events, not positive ones....--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 05:50, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • There's nothing in the policy that indicates it should be applied only to negative events, although that is part of the overall spirit of BLP policy. In this section of it, however, the language is strictly neutral on "positive" or "negative" coverage. BLP1E is clear, and it also clearly dismisses the idea that "loads of independent sourcing" matter if they're based on the one event. -- Noroton (talk) 02:06, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Obvious keep - Meets WP:N; WP:BLP1E doesn't apply because reliable sources are already writing biographical stories on the individual and so in that sense there's no real "event" to cover. The only remaining question is whether this individual should have her own article or whether it should be merged into the article of the series, but that's a stylistic question better answered in another discussion. Oren0 (talk) 06:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - it belongs here because I looked for it here on Wikipedia.Bcameron54 (talk) 07:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • That does not justify keeping it. D.M.N. (talk) 11:41, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think it does, when an actual search is made, it shows demand for information, and implied worthiness/notability. I also STRONGLY agree with the above mention of the pendulum swinging to the deletionist side. Wiki should only concern itself with factuality and organization, not on what I should or should not be interested in, which is precisely what these absurd notability guidelines actually mean. I don't care if YOU think it's not notable or worthy of inclusion, I do. And I am clearly not alone. - — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.177.165.119 (talk • contribs)
  • Keep - Although she is currently "only" a first-round (second-round) contestant, she will at least at this moment remain notable enough to warrant inclusion in the database. Many people who hear about her video in the media will refer to WP for more information on the subject. 92.108.16.46 (talk) 07:16, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge into Britain's Got Talent (series 3) which is bizarrely light on details for a typical reality show article. The problem is WP:Recentism, it's notable now and briefly but long-term, that's debatable. All the sources (excluding the non-reliable ones like YouTube and Digg) are really just discussing her audition, a classic WP:BLP1E situation. If she actually becomes famous on her own, then spin it off into a new article. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep (no, that's not a typo). 99% of contestants in reality shows don't warrant their own article, per WP:BLP1E, and third party coverage is usually limited to articles about the show and perhaps in their own towns' local papers, but not only has coverage on this one shot round the world, some of the coverage is starting to talk about Boyle in her own right (her life, where she lives etc.) Now, if she fails horribly in the competition proper then the information could be merged to the show article, but at the moment I believe it would be premature to do that. Call it WP:IAR. Black Kite 09:57, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - not to mention the rapidly growing amount of media attention that this is gaining overseas. Susan Boyle has been covered in every major newscast on national television in Australia. If attention from another country, especially for a show called "Britain's got talent," doesn't assert notability, I don't know what does. --ClEeFy (talk) 13:09, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Week Keep - while I don't agree YouTube hits matter worth a hill of beans for notability, it does seem Boyle has received enough coverage in the media to edge over the requirements for WP:N and WP:BIO (though certainly not WP:ENTERTAINER. For now, keep, but do some SERIOUS clean up, as I was personally tempted to say speedy for copyvio as the bulk of the article is beyond excessive quotes from various papers above and beyond what is allowed in an article that size. The lead is also excessively gushy. WP:MOSBIO is down the hall, someone please apply it along with some basic good writing. If she turns out to be a 1E, no objections to a revisit in 6 months. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 13:26, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Merge to Britain's Got Talent - after thinking on it more, decided to change my view. Still feel it needs serious clean up first, clean up the copyvio, then what's left should be merged to the series article. If, after the series is over, it can be more clearly shown she is not just a 1E, then can revisit the idea of a standalone. -- -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

:Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fritzpoll (talk) 12:19, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. Seriously kids. Three times? I saw the video after seeing the AfD discussion. This morning it's on Yahoo news and the video has over 2 million hits on YouTube. Give it up. She's notable. --Moni3 (talk) 13:00, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per the general notability guideline. I'm surprised that this discussion has been relisted considering the overwhelming consensus that has already been established (maybe someone will continue relisting it until the "right" consensus is achieved?) Bradley0110 (talk) 13:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Snowball keep. Meets general notability. Substantial mention (entire articles on the subject) in dozens of major reliable sources. The article needs to evolve and will do so over time, and may ultimately end up with a focus on the performance and pop culture phenomenon rather than the bio. There is no policy or guideline against covering the subject of pop culture, television show episodes, viral videos / internet phenomena, etc. Wikidemon (talk) 13:16, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • General notability is only a measure of a presumption of inclusion. You still have to then demonstrate how this article has lasting significance to not represent news, per NOT#NEWS, and is truly not about a person famous for one event, per WP:BLP1E. These are the basic policies, which we rightly defer to when, as you point out, no closer notability guideline exists. 'This article may evolve' is most certainly not a good argument. A flurry of coverage in RS is certainly not equal to SNOW keep. MickMacNee (talk) 15:49, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • BLP1E is one of the more frequently misunderstood policies. People are often made famous - and notable, meaning of lasting interest to informed readers - for a single thing. Events are often notable, and by definition an event happens only once. BLP1E reflects the truism that a person's connection to a notable event does not always make the person themselves notable. That is clearly not the case here, because the event is all about Susan Boyle the person. Her life history, demeanor, voice, and persona as the never been kissed, "unlikely diva",[1] are all crucial components of the event. Further, although it is speculative at this point it appears likely that more noteworthy things are soon in store for Boyle. She is considered the favorite to win the contest (satisfying one notability criterion) and apparently has charted that song in the UK (another). Cowell, who is in a position to know, predicts she will be a star and is trying to find her a record deal. As another editor has said, if it snows anymore we need to get the skis out. Wikidemon (talk) 21:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep First there are enough WP:RS to cover this. Second, while perhaps a fairly gray area, I see the Idol show as one event, and the YouTube popularity as a different event (even though they are directly related). I think this meets our WP:N requirements. for those saying "at this time", I might add that notability is not temporary. I'm also not particularly fond of the way this was forum shopped at the help desk and village pump simply because someone didn't like the fact that consensus seems to be a keep. See: WP:NOTPAPER Also, YouTube is not being used as a "resource" to establish a contentious fact, but rather an indication that an event has occurred, which by wide-spread viewership, indicates a secondary event notability. — Ched :  ?  15:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Article has reliable sources, we've got plenty of room to host the article, notability though currently derived from a single event, is likely to grow considering the nature of the show, plus all the relisting for dubious procedural reasons is getting out of hand. Equendil Talk 16:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - Notable person. This should never have been reopened, common sense has gone out of the window. Jenuk1985 | Talk 17:15, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete One appearance in an audition for a TV show does not give notability. Youtube videos and hits do not give notability. A short burst in the news does not give long-term notability. No objection to recreating if and when she is truly notable - notability of the long-term sort. --Russavia Dialogue 17:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as her fame is currently tied to just one event. Number of hit on YouTube is irrelevant, and so are the number of people comment on blogs and etc. If she does land a record deal in the future or receives additional coverage beyond this one performance, then she would pass WP:BIO. --Farix (Talk) 17:50, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break 1

  • KEEP! As said quite near the beginning: <>er WP:GNG: "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." Sources are reliable, independent, and coverage is significant. She continues to be the subject of much discussion around the world. The articles and videos are being widely linked by bloggers and across Facebook; personally, I searched out the Wiki article after viewing one of those links. Only change--expand as much as possible in accordance with policies. Final note: this is Wiki (means "fast") pedia, not Encyclopedia Brittanica, This is the sort of subject/event which best takes advantage of that difference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.161.117.74 (talk) 18:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
  • Keep but source. Garynine (talk) 19:11, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. See Wikipedia:Notability (people). This woman is currently famous in the newspapers, even reputable ones, for one event only. That is not what notability is. At this stage (without prejudice to her going on to win), this woman is not "significant, interesting, or unusual enough" to deserve the attention of an encyclopopoedia (as opposed to the likes of OK! Magazine, This Morning, or Digital Spy), or to justify the recording of her life story (and of course record the fact she had a cat) for all time, in her own separate article. If she does not progress further, she will no doubt not even be considered "significant, interesting, or unusual enough" to warrant any more coverage at all. MickMacNee (talk) 21:42, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Look, this is the current stance. If you would have actually read Wikipedia:Notability (people), particularly the entertainers section you would have read the following:
Actors, comedians, opinion makers, models, and television personalities [who have] a large fan base or a significant "cult" following.
To make your case for deletion you'll need to prove Susan Boyle does not have a significant "cult" following and a large fan base and with that I wish you luck.
  • Strong keep if one trick pony Judson Laipply has a wikipedia entry, then any notable person can have one. Susan Boyle maybe nobody to you right now...but given the way the media corps glom on to people soon there will be much more to her entry. SOME record company some where is on the phone right now negotiating a deal..and then there will be makeover shows and special performances...you will only have to recreate the thing. Give the woman her 15 minutes. EraserGirl (talk) 21:55, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You said it yourself. This woman's performance That's WP:ONEEVENT right there. Antivenin 00:27, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep One event or not, plethora of RS coverage indicates she meets GNG. If nothing else materializes, merge in six months, but this AfD is premature since the coverage is still happening. Jclemens (talk) 22:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • If she is worthy of an article now, she always will be - notability, as opposed to fame, is not temprorary, it does not fade away. The prediction that in 6 months time this will be a backwater only fit for mergeing is a clear indication it has no place here at all. We are not a giant current events dump, that needs a periodic clear out of all the information people don't care about anymore. That is why presidential assassins, and not Britain's Got Talent contestants, are given as the example of people famous for one event that are worth creating, and keeping, articles about. MickMacNee (talk) 23:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Notability never fades away? Someone who was notable at any time always deserves an encyclopedia article? I can't agree with that assertion, which I consider purely theoretical and belied by real-world scholarship. Encyclopedias mediate between now and all of previous history. We like to talk about a Neutral Point Of View, but merely in deciding what to include and what to exclude, there is of necessity a type of point of view expressed, if only on what is and is not significant enough to merit inclusion. And anyone who thinks that opinions about what should or should not be included in encyclopedias do not change over the years and centuries is welcome to do what I've done, which includes comparing 100-year-old editions of the Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians with more recent ones and seeing what they considered notable enough to cover, and how. Or, to make a broader point, I'm sure there were loads of notable officials in Egypt at the time of the Pharoahs and in the Roman Empire who are excluded from this encyclopedia, because in spite of their notability in those days, they are not much remembered today - as indeed today's Foreign Ministers will be forgotten in 3,000 years. So guidelines are a good thing, whether on Neutral Point of View or Notability, but we do have to live in the present and look at Ms. Boyle as currently notable. There is ample time to reconsider her notability in the light of future developments, but I beg to differ with the idea that notability never fades away. If you'd like to argue that point, I would ask you to please name some of the most important prophets of Baal or argue why without benefit of thousands of years of hindsight, they weren't notable. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:28, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • You cannot have 'current notability' by its definition Wikipedia. Waiting around until this person is 'no longer notable' before deleting, is not only just patent bad practice, it is pure negligence against Wikipedia's philosophy of doing no harm to living people. The stuff about Rome and Egypt, while philosophically interesting, is just a giant straw man argument, and wholly irrelevant. MickMacNee (talk) 15:43, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to coverage of "Britain's Got Talent" until she's more notable than her performance on the show. If she wins, or gets what seems to be a likely music contract, then we've got something more than just what WP:BPL1E and WP:NOT#NEWS warns against. --MASEM (t) 22:59, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep THis is notable if I looked for it on wikipedia and found it to learn mroe of her. She is from the united kingdom and i know who she is. and i think it satisfies notability guidelines for music with the whole being press mentioned everywhere —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scott Oglesby (talk • contribs) 23:10, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Certainly seems early to delete this. If she loses and fades away, sure. But it seems worth letting it go on more than a week before deleting it.--Mike Selinker (talk) 00:27, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - Dogmatic rigidity does not reflect the nature of wikipedia or the medium it exists in. All of the rules in place here were created to address the needs that have arisen organically, the phenomenon of Ms. Boyle's appearance on the public stage indicates a need for continued evolution of those rules. Someone who generates more than eight million YouTube views in less than four days and is referenced in every form of media is obviously a notable figure. chrisblask (talk) 02:31, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep If the strength of Wikipedia is not that a community of editors can come together and produce a reasonably informative article on a phenom that has captured the public's and press's attention, then let's just submit articles and edits by pen and paper and snail mail. Ideally, we could send them by transoceanic cargo to some remote atoll for collation and input, that way, by the time they arrived at their island destination for input to the encyclopedia, we'd already know if Ms. Boyle had staying power or becomes yet another flash in a pan. Until then, given the plethora of WP articles on "notable" topics far less notable than Ms. Boyle, her article deserves to remain. PetersV       TALK 01:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment In terms of "one event", as I understand it, Ms. Boyle has been singing/performing from the age of 12--therefore there must be 35 years of events leading up to this particular event which made Ms. Boyle notable. Second, in terms of "we don't count YouTube views", well, then perhaps we should ban other indicators of popular/predominantly Western culture indicators, such as counts of Google matches in the English language. We can't ban one quantifiable indicator of cultural notability while indicating another quantifiable indicator is recommended for establishing notability. We're talking out of both sides of our mouths. PetersV       TALK 16:20, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Ms. Boyle's story at this moment is breaking news. That wouldn't qualify it as encyclopedic material if nothing else ensued. However, it's very likely that her fame will increase shortly. Deleting the article now will only necessitate starting another one with the same title soon. Keep it and avoid the need to duplicate the work already done. Cognita (talk) 06:35, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Right now, this article is very topical. If this is only her 15 minutes of fame, she will turn into a footnote to history, and then, it will be appropriate to reconsider. But I think it would be shortsighted to nullify the good work that's been put into this article, when there's a distinct possibility that there will be reasons to enlarge the article to note various professional activities in the relatively near future. My recommendations? Let's keep the article and reconsider in 6 months to a year on the basis of what's happened. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:09, 15 April 2009 (UTC) — Restlessheart1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
    • I want to add another argument. I expect Wikipedia to cover breaking news stories. The fact that I am sitting here in New York, having never watched Britain's Got Talent and only been dimly aware of the existence of the show, yet know about Susan Boyle shows the power of news to travel quickly across oceans in this Age of Internet. I expected that there might be a Wikipedia article about Ms. Boyle precisely BECAUSE she is newsworthy, and I was happy not to be disappointed in that expectation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep She's made history. Youtube aside, her portion of the show has been shown round the world. Even if her star fades quickly, (and I hope it doesn't)her moment of fame will be remembered as one of the most emotional pieces of live TV ever. restlessheart1 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Restlessheart1 (talk • contribs) — Restlessheart1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Strong Keep I only found out about her on the news this morning and I immediately wondered if she had a wiki article. She is very famous now and is well beyond being just another auditionee. She is notable for the media impact she has had with her singing ability and will be remembered in years to come for this moment. It is also likely from what is being reported in the press, she will go on to win recording contracts. Keeping this article is therefore advisable. B626mrk (talk) 10:53, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Ms. Boyle's notability is based not on her being "just another auditioner", but on her remarkable talent, and her very pointed object lesson of not judging a book by its cover. More to the point, she has been widely noted. Dozens of articles, millions of hits, talks with a major record label -- things that don't happen with "just another auditioner". The fact that her single, simple audition has produced such a intense, widespread response establishes her notability. Clearly, people are coming to WP looking for more information about her; it should be here for them. Darguz Parsilvan (talk) 11:12, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Things go fast. Some time ago I would had agreed not to keep. But now she is already notable... and then some - and it has gained enough momentum for gaining more notability points for Wikipedia, really soon indeed. Although even some time ago I would had (erroneously) been temped to vote for "keep" because of the obvious extraordinariness of this situation; even then maybe, just maybe it would had also been the right decision to keep. 213.7.222.25 (talk) 11:38, 15 April 2009 (UTC) — 213.7.222.25 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Strong Keep: This lady is going to be big. She is famous worldwide and has a huge media interest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wacky WeLsH LaD (talk • contribs) 12:02, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep: As per above. Also I only came to Wikipedia once today and it was to look up information on Ms.Boyle after seeing a report on her on CNN.Colincbn (talk) 12:12, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • STRONG Keep The only reason why this article was tagged for possible deletion is because they perceive Ms. Boyle as a pop cultural oddity. This is Wikipedia snobbery at its worst, and this is the exact reason why I bailed on Wikipedia as a contributor four years ago. Folks, this web site is not, and will never be Encyclopedia Britannica; a place when the academic elite sit around for years arguing over how many angles dance on the head of a pin before they will agree to place an article in the tome that pins actually exist. This woman has incredible talent and she is a legitimate worldwide phenomena in the short run. She also has more talent than Sarah Brightman on Brightman's best day. Stude62 (talk) 12:56, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please define what you mean by "closed early". When do you think its reasonable to close this AFD which clearly shows the majority of responses against deletion? BritishWatcher (talk) 16:56, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A small subset of disruptive editors seem it is fit to ignore common sense and are insistent that it continues to the end. This AfD has already been closed several times. Jenuk1985 | Talk 16:53, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Its a disgrace that a few people because they dont like the outcome and majority view just try to continue this process until they get the outcome they want. It really is rather pathetic, she is clearly notable enough to justify an article. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:54, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question (and this isn't directed at any one individual editor, and I don't want to be a disruptive editor, but...). When claiming "ONEEVENT", are we referring to the performance? .. the non-typical reaction of the judges? .. the audience response? .. the 5 million YouTube hits? .. the Global coverage by ABC News, The Daily Telegraph, The Sun, the Daily Mirror, New York Daily News, and now UPI? .. the 2:1 odds that OLBG Sports is taking in relation to her possible success? .. the Ashton Crusher/Demi Moore twittering coverage? ...the meeting with the Sony BMG record company to discuss a recording deal? Exactly which "one event" are we discussing, or is this all considered one event? Just curious. — Ched :  ?  16:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Try writing a separate article on any of those things that does not contain in its majority the details about audition on Britain's Got Talent, and you will see quite clearly that they are all what is clearly defined as 'the event', for the purposes of 'ONE EVENT'. If she went on to gain a recording contract, and sold a million records, then quite clearly you could write a separate article about her recording career, and the audition would be a mere paragraph of her article. Judging by the hair splitting (read: wikilawyering) going on in this Afd about what constitutes a notable 'event', John Hinckley, Jr. would have hundreds of articles about his life - but he doesn't, because he is the actual poster boy example of a person notable only for one event, in the very policy page that defines it, WP:BLP1E. MickMacNee (talk) 18:28, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The events at this audition (irrespective of how they evolve in the future) have had a very strong cultural / social impact. The main point here is not Susan Boyle herself or parameters of the voice or the number of auditions that have taken place so far. The point is that this story illustrates the so rare phenomena how an unknown person can cause admiration / suprise etc. Therefore, this article deserves its place here as a specific cultural reference. All considered, I give it a Keep. --RokasT (talk) 17:06, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Kittybrewster ☎ 17:28, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Actually a strong keep. This person's notability may have been sparked by a single event but she has quickly grown into a notable individual with significant coverage in a variety of reliable sources in many different parts of the world. The article should be kept and developed from what is already available and expanded as more becomes available. What is already available justifies the article. WTucker (talk) 17:38, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • DeleteShe drew a lot of attention by singing on a singing contest reality show. So what? What if we start making articles for every person who has done that. Would you like an article on Ian Bernardo? Alexis Cohen? Let's not stop at singing contestants, let's do an article on every person who managed to become a youtube sensation! I want to see an article on this kid, I really would like to know what's his story! Seriously, let's wait until she has a career or she is at least William Hung status for an article. --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 17:51, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep - There are at least two distinct events to cover: (1) a talent-show performance (2) an explosion of YouTube views (currently way over 5,000,000) within four days. These are related, but separately notable. WP:ONEEVENT does not apply.-Iakub (talk) 18:00, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break 2

  • Keep - Two reasons: One, it DOES seem to meet notability guidelines - I found out about her from CNet (and a quick check on google news turns up over a hundred articles about her (137 at the time of this writing). Two, Wikipedia's policy on deleting articles makes it difficult to recreate an article that has been deleted (a la Alexis Grace), so deleting at this point would be premature. - Maxvip (talk) 18:08, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • It would only be difficult to recreate the article if it was deleted, and then somebody tried to resurrect it with no substantially new information. But if she went on to win the competition, or sell a million records, or do something completely different but also notable, then where's the difficulty? Especially if someone had dutifully recorded the only worthwhile information here in the relevant article, the one about the show. From the reactions of some in this Afd, you would think we had no 'notable contestant' sections in any reality show article at all, and this Afd was tantamount to demanding her erasure from the pedia completely. It is not. But anyway, 'it might be difficult to recreate it' is not a very good argument at all. MickMacNee (talk) 18:35, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Agreed. I hesitated to include that argument at all, as people will always attack your weakest argument. But in the interest of AGF, and trying to make sure all possible thoughts were put out there, I decided to include it. I don't think it would be a reason to keep it on its own, but if there were a 50/50 split, this might be a good "tipping point" argument to keep. Also why I said "keep" instead of "strong keep".
      • Honestly, if this article were deleted I don't think it would make Wikipedia any less of a good resource; but I don't think keeping it weakens Wikipedia at all, either. So IMO there's no reason to delete it. Personally, any time I read about anything in the news that I want to find out more about (like this woman), my first course of action is to check Wikipedia. If people are interested and actively searching Wikipedia for information about someone, I think that, by definition, should make them notable as far as WP is concerned. If, for some reason, she drops out of the public sight and people no longer want to search wikipedia for stories about her, then the article can be deleted. Maxvip (talk) 19:10, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • They are common views, but they are not supported by any policy. We do not keep articles only to delete them later when they serve no purpose, and any information we choose to provide because a large number of people are looking for it *right now*, still has to prove it's worth. Popularity/reader interest is not the bar of inclusion here. MickMacNee (talk) 20:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I'm not interested in the TV programme or the singer, but there was a substantial news story on BBC news this evening about her and the worldwide phenomenon that has resulted from her appearance on saturday. This is clearly an exceptional response to someone appearing on one of these shows.--Michig (talk) 18:49, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Numerous articles in newspapers all over the world, plus millions of Youtube hits. Noteworthy. --Kristjan Wager (talk) 19:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Articles for Deletion
All AfD discussions run for at least seven days. However, a closure earlier than seven days may take place if a reason given in either Wikipedia:Speedy keep or Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion applies.

For the record, I want this article kept. And I have re-opened it more than once.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well its a pointless waste of time keeping this process going for another 4 days when we all know what the outcome will be. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If it's a waste of your time, don't read the page. Simple, yes?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:00, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Its a waste of time because the person is clearly notable enough to qualify and we know what the outcome will be anyway. Keep wasting peoples time though thanks. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:02, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone read WP:POINT lately? Wikidemon (talk) 17:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to have to agree with Sarek on this (and I also agree the article should be kept.). I doubt there's any real reason not to follow procedure here. We do have some delete votes coming in, and there have been some drastic 11th hour changes in the past. I suspect it's better to follow our own guidelines, and avoid any potential fallout due to claims that something was railroaded through without proper respect to all editors given. — Ched :  ?  17:04, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why would you delete this? It's about a notable person and is completely factual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.40.218.57 (talk) 17:25, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The main argument for deletion is that it's a "biography of a living person notable for only one event" (WP:BLP1E), and hence not suitable for inclusion. I disagree with that, but it's a legitimate argument to make here.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:35, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's an idiotic rule, and totally arbitrary. Let me demonstrate: If the 4th planet from the Sun were to blow up right now, you could call that a single event. Yet at the same time, another person could look at it as multiple events, or a single event with multiple consequences that are inseparable from the first event. The same exact reasoning applies here. This so-called "single-event" is so significant that the fallout from it must be considered and thus it no longer qualifies as a "single event". The fact that we're dealing with a person and not a planet is of little consequence. SPEEDY KEEP -- itistoday (Talk) 18:38, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Which of the criteria at WP:Speedy keep are you suggesting are satisfied here?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:42, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Except it's not an idiotic rule (and I voted Keep as well). We are not talking about deleting articles about single events, but articles about people who are only known for a single event. For example, there's a big story in the UK at the moment (link) about a police officer who assaulted someone at the G20 demonstration. Is the demonstration notable? Yes - here's the article. Are the police officer or the demonstrator notable? No - even though they've been written about in multiple reliable sources, they themselves aren't notable except in the context of the demonstration, and so they would thus fail WP:BLP1E. Hope this makes it clear. Black Kite 18:43, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge: Despite all of the keep votes, and my own emotion, thinking this woman deserves to have her own article, I to not belive that this topic deserves to have it's own article. I really have to get around to reading the policies, but I think that there are just so many people in favour of this topic, that it can't be removed entirely from Wikipedia. Prymal (talk) 20:12, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge. WP:BLP1E. She is not encyclopedically significant outside the context of this one TV show appearance. Cover the event, not the person. - Brian Kendig (talk) 20:25, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I've just today heard about her and came to WP to learn more. Thanks for not disappointing me WP! -hydnjo (talk) 20:42, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. She got notable VERY quickly. Her name is everywhere. - Liontamer (talk) 21:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge Seems to me that the perfect place for her would be the entry for Britain's Got Talent under "other notable contestants" Her acheivement, while very new, has still elicited very large media\news response. - ThaRock1976 (talk) 21:08 15APR09 —Preceding undated comment added 21:08, 15 April 2009 (UTC). — ThaRock1976 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Keep Something dreadful would have to happen for this woman to not remain notable. Wildhartlivie (talk) 21:12, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep The best arguments for the keep have been made above by individuals far more eloquent than I. But another reason should become self evident very soon, her success is very likely to gain in notoriety, and with Wiki not having space constraints, the privilege of being one of the first encyclopedias with an article on her should be reason enough. (long live wiki!)HawkShark (talk) 21:20, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge into Britain's got talent and unmerge when she wins the show. --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 21:21, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. How odd. Last month I consulted Wikipedia looking for information on Nicholas Hughes. His death was covered by the New York Times, yet his article here was being considered for deletion. Today I look up information on Susan Boyle -who is being covered by CNN and The Washington Post among now countless other reputable news sources internationally- and this article too is being considered for deletion. As the Wikipedia article about itself states: "Jonathan Dee, of The New York Times, and Andrew Lih, in the 5th International Symposium on Online Journalism, have cited the importance of Wikipedia not only as an encyclopedic reference but also as a frequently-updated news resource." Readers come here for information - both on historic and current events. Susan Boyle's story is a very current event and the article on her should stand. J. Van Meter (talk)
  • Keep WP:BLP1E is for articles about people where the event received the coverage not the person and that person essentially remains low profile while the event enjoys notoriety. The coverage of Boyle is about Boyle herself, not the event. Boyle has received international attention and will likely continue to receive it. Coverage mentions her by name and is focused on her. WP:BLP1E is a useful guideline for avoiding a plethora of articles on non-notable people swept up in notable events but it doesn't apply here.— Preceding unsigned comment added by RadioFan (talk • contribs)
  • Keep This has sparked world-wide interest...if it ends in a couple of months then merge, but it should remain in some form. 216.30.171.130 (talk) 21:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or Keep but Rename An identically worded article entitled "Susan Boyle's appearance on Britain's Got Talent" would satisfy BLP1E, which seems to be the only serious objection being raised now. All depends how anal we want to be, I guess. SP-KP (talk) 21:57, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Like it or not, she is getting world-wide coverage. The show is not. This is not a BIO1E event because she has become bigger than the show. I42 (talk) 21:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Notability comes down to one thing - has the subject received non-trivial coverage by independent, third-party sources? In this case, the answer is a resounding yes. faithless (speak) 22:03, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The 35.027[2] page hits so far should speak for itself - how would there be this many hits, if she wasn't notable? Sertmann (talk) 22:12, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - As per all the folk above with stuff about reliable sources and whatnot. No reason to delete it. -- Cheeseman Muncher (talk) 22:18, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep As notable as William Hung and he couldn't even sing. Like Mr. Hung... Mrs. Boyle's story is everywhere.--Dr who1975 (talk) 22:25, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • OK... want a guidline or policy... how about Wikipedia:Notability... I actually read it... MRs. Boyle has been covered significantly by several reliable sources and those sources are verified... that's what notability astates needs to happen. It has happened... end of argument.--Dr who1975 (talk) 22:46, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and revisit — Let's see how things progress. If it turns out that Ms. Boyle is a transient, here-then-gone meme, we delete the article; if it turns out that she's more than that, we keep it. It's that simple. As for now, there seem to be enough sources and coverage to warrant the article's inclusion, but we should probably revisit this issue after a few weeks, when we will have a clearer idea of how notable Ms. Boyle will end up being. —Animum (talk) 22:28, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with that argument is that notability is not temproary... no... Mrs. Boyle is notable just becaudse she's notable. I can;t site a specific policy or guideline... but kjust take whatever rational make's William Hung notable and apply it to Mrs. Boyle.--Dr who1975 (talk) 22:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As I said a little further up in this discussion, notability is not temporary, but our ability to distinguish notability (i.e. the event versus the person) may be temporarily clouded. Hence why I agree with Animum that we should keep the article for now, subject to revisit the situation in a few weeks if Ms. Boyle decides to go back to living a quiet life with her cat. Somehow I doubt it given her talent, but we'll see.   user:j    (aka justen)   23:12, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. When I said, "[...] when we will have a clearer idea of how notable Ms. Boyle will end up being," I meant that our judgement may be clouded for the moment and that it would be wisest to revisit this after the hype dies down. I realize that "will end up being" is not the best phrasing in the world, but she's going to either become more notable or stay as notable as she is now. Notability cannot decrease (after something has been done, it's very hard indeed to take it back completely), but it can increase (Ms. Boyle might perform again, which would generate more coverage and sources, which in turn would make her more notable). (Note: After mulling it over, I refactored my first comment slightly.) —Animum (talk) 00:13, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The point I'm getting at: She seems notable now, but we might be caught up in the hype and have misjudged, so it would be prudent to revisit this when we aren't as clouded. —Animum (talk) 00:16, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at WP:BLP1E, can you put your hand on your heart and say that Susan Boyle "essentially remains a low-profile individual"? If that is so, then you are correct, but I don't think you are. Tim Vickers (talk) 01:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)Individuals like this are not what BLP1E is for. People who are primarily notable for one event can still be notable enough for biographical articles. See for example Chesley Sullenberger or Seung-Hui Cho. The first question to ask when checking if 1E applies is whether the sources cited primarily cover the event or the person. When the sources start writing biographical articles about a person, their shot at BLP1E is gone. The policy exists so that we don't extrapolate an article about a low-key person only because they're involved in an event, not to stop us from having a biography on an individual who is the subject of biographical articles in reliable sources. I'd also like to ask what the "event" is that everyone would like us to cover. Do you really want a Susan Boyle's appearance on Britain's Got Talent article, which is really the event that's generated all of the attention? Not to mention, per TimVickers above, that the idea of this person being "low-profile" at this point is hilarious. Oren0 (talk) 02:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sullenberger saved 155 lives. Seung-Hui Cho murdered 32 people. Boyle made Amanda Holden cry. The press has noted such biographical information as, she has a cat called Pebbles. They have not done for Sullengberger or Cho. By your interpretaion of notability and BLP1E, and your apparent yardstick of inclusion of the presnce/absence of 'biographical articles in reliable sources', this makes Boyle more deserving of a Wikipedia article than Sullenberger or Cho, patently a wrong conclusion. This sort of standard newspaper backstory does not mark out a person as being above the bar of being a BLP1E. MickMacNee (talk) 03:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Like TimVickers, I'm an American and I'm not normally aware of reality TV (in the US, much less the UK) or celebrity gossip, but I know about her because the story was highlighted on National Public Radio news. She's famous for one event, but the amount of attention she has received for that one event is extraordinary. --Orlady (talk) 02:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. For all the reasons above. She was in the newspaper this morning here in Toronto, Canada, and obviously has a following. I'm not sure I understand "one event" in this context. There are lots of unique, one-time only events that qualify for inclusion. I say keep now, and nominate for deletion in a year if she's truly a flash in the pan.Quietmarc (talk) 02:08, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge into Britain's Got Talent (series 3), per all the above, WP:BLP1E, etc. "The bare fact that someone has been in the news does not in itself imply that they should be the subject of an encyclopedia entry." When she wins, recreate. Lychosis T/C 02:10, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per WP:ONEEVENT. If she goes on to bigger and better things, the article can be recreated. As it stands, she hasn't quite reached the threshold for notability, though she likely will one day. AniMatetalk 02:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Definite Keep -- Susan Boyle's performance has created a type of sensationalism that is rarely seen - thousands of news articles have been posted, web sites and blogs all around the world are marketing her - just days after her performance. This will set a new threshold for viral marketing - something rarely seen of this magnitude - and should be included as an internet phenomenon. --Grosed (talk) 01:50, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Definite Keep -- The very fact that there is so much debate about keeping or not keeping this entry makes the case for keeping it, although some research could add facts and new data. This is a worldwide phenomenon here. And my contribution: hey -- this is a digital reference. We're not padding extra pages into a bound volume. Just get the facts straight, but I can't even fathom a reason to delete the entry. (Ehsventnor) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ehsventnor (talk • contribs) 01:20, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Definite Keep -- Susan is now the all-time top stat hit on several networking sites and is nearing 10 million hits on her video after only 3 days. Wiki is the first place I went to when looking for information on her. The ability to host an informational article on someone who is suddenly notable such as Susan is a key aspect of wikipedia. This article should have never been considered for deletion. (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.101.139.175 (talk) 00:33, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - This woman was mentioned two days in a row in NBC nightly news. When someone sees that clip and wants more infomation, shouldn't they be able to go to wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.136.123.17 (talk) 23:14, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep: If that hack William Hung gets a page on here, there is absolutely NO reason to delete Susan Boyle's page!
  • Keep: Per deletion guidelines, there is nothing that can constitute a deletion of this page. This entry belongs here for now. Should she fall by the way-side in later months, then perhaps this can be deleted at that time. MattAdamsMagic (talk) 14:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: We should delete - I agree that it's too early just yet. In the meanwhile, we'll see how things turn out, no? Let's not rush this. Every article represents the quality of Wikipedia, and creating articles based on YouTube hits does not speak well of this site. Revy D. (talk) 07:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep: I see no need to rush a delete. This entry belongs here for now. Oldfarm (talk) 21:48, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep: There are over 3 million views in youtube, and all major British newspapers have run articles on this singer. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/5152638/Britains-Got-Talent-church-worker-Susan-Boyle-becomes-YouTube-hit.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.62.106 (talk) 20:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Snow keep (WP:Snow) Similar to the comment below, I'd say keep for now. It maybe that this is better recongized as not news (WP:NOT#NEWS) or better catagorized based upon the event (WP:BLP1E) after people have time to look at it in a more editorial light. 02:15, 16 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.233.218.233 (talk)
  • Comment I wanted to add a bit to what I said above. While I think we should keep the article, having reviewed the 1E policy, I can certainly understand that argument. But I still say Keep, for two reasons: 1) According to Wikipedia:What_"Ignore_all_rules"_means, the rules exist to improve WP -- that purpose trumps everything, and "In cases of conflict, what counts as an improvement is decided by consensus." I think it's pretty clear what the consensus is here. 2) Those arguing for deletion primarily point to 1E, and while as I say I can understand that argument, I think what people are missing is the greater context. Let's look at a clear example of 1E: Hurricane Katrina was certainly a notable event; if, say, ABC News were down there and spoke with someone who had lost their home, that person would not merit a WP entry, as they are clearly not a significant factor in the event. If there were a person who organized groups of volunteers to assist those affected, you start edging toward notability. If there were a person who made extraordinary contributions in time, money, organization, etc. to the relief effort, and had a significant impact on people's lives, now we're talking someone who merits an entry. As the policy states, giving the example of Hinkley, 1E doesn't apply if the person is a significant factor in a significant event. Obviously, Ms. Boyle is the significant factor in this event, so it only remains to establish whether the event itself is noteworthy, and I think this is where the Deleters are not seeing the context. The reactions of Simon and Piers and some of the audience members before Ms. Boyle started singing, with Piers actually expressing revulsion at one point, are representative of something very significant and deeply-embedded in our culture: to judge beauty by outward appearance, and that only by conformity to some artificial standard. In recent years we as a culture have finally begun to come to terms with this, to examine this flaw in our collective perception, and to recognize that beauty comes in many packages, and everyone has the potential to be beautiful. This shift is a significant occurrence, and Ms. Boyle's audition is a major indicator of it, a major marker. Even if Ms Boyle were to decide that getting through the audition is enough, and to drop out and go back to her village, this event has and will continue to have profound ripples throughout our society. It isn't "just an audition". The instant, enormous, broad, passionate response to it demonstrates that. It clearly resonates very deeply and strongly with many people, making it a notable event in and of itself, and Ms. Boyle along with it. And if you don't buy that, see #1. People are obviously coming to WP looking for information on this, and I think they should be able to find it. Darguz Parsilvan (talk) 02:21, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete no evidence to suggest subject is historically significant.--Otterathome (talk) 02:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Media coverage is substantial and shows no signs of abating for at least the run of this series. Proserpine (talk) 02:42, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Huge amount of international interest, numerous articles, and it isn't a single event, since we will discuss her work with the church, volunteer work, helping her sick mom, performances for her cat which are also notable! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mlnteam (talk • contribs) 02:48, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure performances for her cat are very notable. :0 Lychosis T/C 02:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as she seems to have generated considerable interest in the media (although I certainly never heard of heard before 2 minutes ago, literally). Like William Hung or Sanjaya Malakar, it seems there's something about Susan Boyle which just fascinates people. That generates interest, that produces media coverage, and the result is notability. Otterathome's comment above ("no evidence to suggest subject is historically significant") and similar comments do not come close to reflecting Wikipedia guidelines for Notability. --Boston (talk) 02:56, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Going on that means, if I saved a baby from drowning and this was reported in several local newspapers, that would make me notable enough for an article. WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP1E exist for a reason.--Otterathome (talk) 03:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.181.250.232 (talk) 03:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Not Notable. 12bigbrother12 03:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep - Lots of interest. Does someone really have to historically significant to get an entry? Hey, if she doesn't matter in 5 years, delete her then, or shunt her off to an area where articles go when they no longer matter. The question is whether she's of interest now, and the answer is yes. She's a pop phenomenon. That's plenty of reason for an entry in a Wiki. Or is Wikipedia only about things made of granite? odyzzeuz 10:24, 16 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Odyzzeuz (talk • contribs)
As a thought, Boyle could be argued to be notable for two events, firstly for the performance that was reported in the first wave of coverage about her, and secondly for the level of world-wide interest that her performance generated. Stories are now analysing this coverage and discussing this reaction and what it says about our society and its preoccupations (such as this). If this had just been a jaw-dropping performance, then perhaps BLP1E might apply, but it has gone beyond that now - the story is a story in itself. Tim Vickers (talk) 03:47, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Whether everyone realizes it or not, the frantic opining by editor after editor about whether Boyle is notable or not hints strongly at her notability. Where did all these editors come from? Some regularly opine in AfD discussions. But it's obvious that most are here because they heard about Susan Boyle. --Boston (talk) 03:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC) - PS -- as of last count, her Wikipedia article has been viewed 82,714 times![reply]
  • Keep I learned about this woman through Hong Kong media (in Chinese), where nobody would otherwise be interested about the show BGT at all. It is one thing for a British show to recieve international coverage from English (language) media, but when it get Asian media's attention then it should be big enough a reason for the article to stay. I don't know about WP jargons; I just know Susan Boyle is no longer some woman, but more a pheonemon. 64.198.200.71 (talk) 03:55, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is media coverage a secondary source? Is the event significant?
  • Strong Keep It is highly likely that Susan Boyle will keep some degree of fame. I have heard about her on NPR and a number of other major news networks. She is also a very inspiring and talented woman. I would be disappointed in Wikipedia if this article were deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Supadupaman7 (talk • contribs) 04:12, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Notability Guideline for People: "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject." Do CNN or YouTube or any of the other global media covering the performance qualify as secondary source material? Wikipedia appears to define a secondary source as "a document or recording that relates or discusses information originally presented elsewhere." If these other media sources qualify as secondary, Ms. Boyle's notability is arguably presumed. (Perhaps this points to a deficiency in the current definition of "secondary source".)

According to "Articles about people notable only for one event": "If the event is significant, and the individual's role within it is a large one, a separate article for the person is sometimes appropriate. *** The historic significance of events should be indicated by the persistent coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources that devote significant attention to the individual's role. Transient press coverage of a story does not generally indicate an individual who would meet this exception, even if there are multiple independent and reliable secondary sources." Based on this discussion, another question is whether the performance itself is significant, perhaps with consideration of any inherent cultural statements and the significance of the series generally in pop culture. On the other hand, perhaps coverage has been transient, i.e., not sufficiently persistent.

Although the performance itself was very good, more importantly the media reaction and non-professional responses have been amazing. I recommend permitting the article to remain at least for a month or so, allowing editors to develop the article and provide interested viewers with information. After a while, persistence should be evident.--Rpclod (talk) 04:10, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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