Wikipedia:Community de-adminship/RfC

This is a Request for comment (RfC) on a proposal to implement Community de-adminship (CDA) on the English Wikipedia. Community de-adminship (a form of Administrator Recall), would be a method for the Wikipedia community to remove the administrator tools from existing Administrators who have lost the confidence of the community.

• You can read the CDA proposal here.
• You can read an FAQ, prepared by editors who worked on it and support it, here. Please note that some opponents have been altering that page.

This page opened for comments 18:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC), and will close 23:59, 22 March 2010 (UTC).

The proposal

The community is being asked whether a proposal for community-based removal of administrator privileges, called Community de-Adminship (CDA) should be implemented as policy on the English Wikipedia.

If WP:CDA is adopted this will require two other amendments:

• The Wikipedia:Guide to Community de-adminship will be described as a "guide to current practice" in the same way that Wikipedia:Guide to requests for adminship is at present.
• It will also be necessary to amend the policy Wikipedia:Administrators to include reference to the WP:CDA process. This step will be undertaken as a technical matter at that page as and when needed.

Closure

When the debate here is concluded, it will be closed in the usual way. If sufficient consensus has not been reached after thirty days, and further discussion would be useful, it will be extended.

If the RfC ends in consensus to implement, such implementation will then be subject to review by the Bureaucrats and Jimmy Wales.

Discussion

Comments by some of the editors who prepared the proposal

See also: Wikipedia:WikiProject Administrator/Five Problems with a Single Solution

This discussion follows on from those at:

• Wikipedia:WikiProject Administrator/Admin Recall
• the associated talk page.

There, a poll was conducted that attempted to evaluate the levels of community support for various proposals seeking to create a method by which the community at large (as opposed to Arbitration Committee) could pass comment on the actions of and if necessary remove the tools from, existing Administrators.

The main conclusions of this poll were as follows:

1. The status quo, (i.e. no such process being available) whilst garnering some support, was very unpopular. 77% of respondents did not support its continuation.
2. Only one proposal achieved a greater degree of support than opposition – "Wikipedia:Community de-adminship" (CDA) – which received a majority of 13, and the support of 65% of those who considered it. This proposed process was designed as a "mirror image" of the existing Wikipedia:Requests for adminship (RfA), and part of its appeal was evidently its familiarity.

The reasons for dissatisfaction with the status quo are complex and varied, but a view was regularly expressed that if the community at large has the authority to appoint administrators through the RfA process, then the community should also be able to remove their powers.

This led to lengthy discussions at:

• Wikipedia talk:Community de-adminship/Draft RfC

which attempted to iron out various issues in the then existing Guide to Community de-adminship. This resulted in:

1. Some wording changes and clarifications as identified above (Section: Update from WT:CDADR). Few of these were controversial.
2. An increase in the nomination period from 3 days to 7 days.
3. More emphasis on pre-nomination attempts to resolve any disputes.
4. Most complex of all, a more specific statement about how the outcome shall be judged. Various options were considered and two specifics are identified as part of this RfC (see below).

In many cases the above discussions were a conflict between:

• The desire to make the process simpler or easier to implement in order to avoid allowing those perceived as having abused their Administrative tools to continue without fear of sanction, and
• The desire to avoid a system in which Administrators, who almost inevitably find themselves taking on potentially controversial tasks on the community's behalf, are discouraged from taking action for fear of reprisals via a Recall method that is too easy for aggrieved editors to make use of when they don't get their way.

The resulting changes to the Guide to Community de-adminship were a compromise between these two poles.

Flaws in this process noted by TenOfAllTrades

Issues of procedural fairness

By far my greatest concerns about this process turn on its gross unfairness to its participants — especially the administrator being examined. The proponents of the process have been very concerned about creating a process which is very rapid, which has a low barrier to entry, which sysops should find genuinely threatening, and which has a 'democratic' appearance. Unfortunately, the result is a process that does not contemplate an administrator who wants to defend his actions, situations where there is misconduct by multiple parties (particularly by the nominators), or any interest on the part of participants in examining the evidence or discussing the situation.

The final accounting

The way in which CDA proposes to close its discussions is flawed and prone to failure.

The role of Bureaucrats

By far the most visible role of Bureaucrats on Wikipedia is in the evaluation of Requests for Adminship and the promotion (or not) of new admins. They have both the technical and policy means to grant the sysop bit within the framework of existing policy. What they cannot do - under policy and by deliberate design of the wiki software permissions - is remove the sysop bit once granted.

What this CDA proposal aims to do is grant bureaucrats a new power to enact desysopping decisions. This represents a substantial expansion and shift in their powers and responsibilities.

Simpler approaches have not been tried

The proponents of CDA have spent a substantial amount of time and effort to construct this elaborate proposal, but we are still left with the serious flaws detailed above. More unfortunately, they have rejected any suggestion that their goals could be accomplished by different, simpler means. Indeed, I believe it is possible to achieve the goals of this process without any need to write new policy at all.

In summary

For this long list of reasons, I find that the proposed process and structure are unfair and untenable, and unlikely to benefit Wikipedia. Virtually all of these points were brought up during discussions about the CDA process, but no resolutions were forthcoming. I must therefore oppose this proposal. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:13, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to try to refrain from making a habit of disputing every criticism raised, but I do feel compelled to point out one thing. In the second part of the first group, the issue is raised of the conduct of one editor. That editor does not speak for the other editors who support this proposal (as neither do I) and in fact is now an opponent of it. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:23, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I actually was in the process of amending that out when I saw your comment here. I don't think that this process should be accepted or rejected based on the (mis)behaviour of one individual. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:34, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for that. If, as the RfC goes along, editors would like for me or other supporters to respond to any of the other points you have raised, I'll be happy to give it a try, but I figure it would be premature and maybe kind of badgering for me to do that now. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for preparing this material. I think there is a lot of meat here: first, with regard to the diminished fairness of this process versus the existing. Second, with regard to the manner in which this proposal, while attempting to derive authority by styling itself as an offshoot or modification of an existing process, actually has little to no relation to any currently existing process; its closest forebear is probably the dramatically failed Wikipedia:Quickpolls. It's quite unpredictable how this will act in practice and the proponents have consistently refused to engage with any attempt to explore this issue. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:25, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Rebuttal to TenOfAllTrades by Tryptofish

The nature and development of the CDA process

• Although earlier versions of this proposal were written as "reverse RfAs", the actual proposal presented here has moved beyond that glib oversimplification. Please read what the proposal actually says. Anyone can start an RfA, but the barriers to getting a CDA certified are considerable. However, the fact remains that the community that confers RfA ought to be able to make use of CDA.
• Was the process of working up the proposal a mess? No argument from me. I was involved in it from beginning to end, and it often felt like root canal! The claims that there were never opportunities to modify the proposal are, however, utter nonsense; indeed, the opportunities probably went on for too long. I've read the quoted analogy many times, and I still do not get the point of it.
• Please read the FAQ, number 10, for why we have refrained from "naming names" of administrators who might be subject to this process. The proposal calls for an automatic review after one year or five nominations, and the community can evaluate it by whatever criteria the community wishes.

Issues of procedural fairness

• Many of the points raised are stated melodramatically, but do not hold up under scrutiny. The wording in the proposal about scrutiny of those who start the CDA is actually quite strong. The actual policy allows for a deliberate and thoughtful discussion of the case, with plenty of opportunity for the accused administrator and defenders to present a detailed rebuttal and have it considered before the polling is closed.
• Read the proposal. The accused administrator has plenty of leeway to "canvass" help from those with exonerating evidence.
• Despite the claims made, any certified CDA will be well-publicized and will be able to draw a representative portion of the community. There is every reason to expect that editors will come to the defense of a good administrator unjustly accused. Just look at the responses here at this RfC!
• The accused administrator does indeed have the opportunity to present a defense. There is an entire section of the page for that purpose.
• The proposal requires discussion on the poll page, while the associated talk page is for peripheral matters. In fact, per !votes and !votes without explanation are to be discounted.
• Not enough time for the administrator to respond? Seven days before the CDA can be certified, and at least seven days before the polling is closed (unless a snow close for "acquittal").
• No opportunity for compromise solutions? Nonsense. One can !vote against removal of administrative rights, and comment on milder alternatives.
• As for bites at the apple, read what the proposal actually says about multiple nominations against the same administrator for the same reasons.
• Sensitive, confidential information sometimes comes into play at RfA too. It has been handled there by a trusted person (often a Bureaucrat) reviewing the matter independently and reporting the nature of the situation to the page, without breaching privacy.

The final accounting

• Those "wild-assed" thresholds went through more hand-wringing discussion than, I don't know what. If they prove to need tweaking, that will become apparent through experience, but is it really that difficult for a Bureaucrat to determine consensus here? If, after discounting all the per !votes and out-of-policy statements and ineligible comments and so on and on, there are 70% or 80% of the community saying they have lost trust in the administrator, is it really such a hard call?
• If one Bureaucrat is unsure of the decision, they can consult others or extend the poll period, and there are mechanisms for appeal.

The role of Bureaucrats

• Yes, this would represent an additional role for them. Are they really not up to it? Are they really more fallibly human than Arbitrators?

Simpler approaches have not been tried

• This proposal would not do away with RfC/U or ArbCom. It gives the community an alternative. In developing this proposal, many editors looked at many alternative methods, and they all have shortcomings. It's easy to say there is some better way, but what is it, and what would it look like after scrutiny like that here?
• This proposal is, in many ways, an alternative to making RfA more difficult. Do we really want to make RfA more difficult? The existence of CDA should actually be a sort of stress-release for RfA, in that a positive RfA decision would not be irrevocable.
• There's an interesting chicken-and-egg phenomenon. I agree that the community as a whole is evolving towards higher standards of expectation, and both this proposal and recent trends at ArbCom reflect that evolution of standards. Perhaps the knowledge that this proposal was being developed was present in Arbitrators' minds; I don't know. Perhaps the very existence of CDA would make the few problematic administrators behave better and obviate the need for formal actions. It's hard to tell.

In summary

If you haven't already, please read the proposal itself. I think you will see that it is much better thought out than the critics portray it as. And please read the FAQ, as well as the excellent essay Wikipedia:WikiProject Administrator/Five Problems with a Single Solution. It is only fair that the community be able to withdraw its trust, once given. The procedures in this proposal actually make it very difficult to apply CDA frivolously. It will be an improvement over the status quo. --Tryptofish (talk) 06:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I hope that readers of the 'Five Problems' essay also look at its talk page, where I (and another editor) raised clear concerns about 'The Fix' described: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Administrator/Five Problems with a Single Solution. I will avoid a point-by-point counter-rebuttal of Tryptofish in this space, as I feel that readers of this page can compare my comments with his glib dismissals to reach their own conclusions.

I will raise one factual point, however. Regardless of what Tryptofish states above, the sample CDA page (Wikipedia:Community de-adminship/Example) does not now include – and to my knowledge has never included – any space in which the accused admin can offer a statement in his own defense. The proposed policy is equally silent on this point. Whether this oversight is deliberate or accidental, the statement that "[t]here is an entire section of the page for that purpose" is flatly untrue. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:07, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Then please let me clarify. The section to which I referred was the "oppose" section. Now, that said, perhaps you raise a good point, that the Example page should be modified to have a section specifically for the nominated administrator's rebuttal. That would be very easy to add with a simple edit, and is hardly a convincing reason, by itself, to oppose the proposal. And please do not insinuate about "oversight is deliberate". --Tryptofish (talk) 16:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

That you believe (or believed until now) that it is appropriate and sufficient for the sole response from the admin on the CDA page to sit jumbled in with the 'Oppose' votes is telling. In any event, being permitted to make a few brief comments in a numbered list of votes is not the same thing as having "an entire section of the page".

When I suggested that the oversight was deliberate, I didn't mean that you were wilfully misstating the content of the proposal. I did mean that leaving out any dedicated space for an admin to respond to the charges might have been a conscious choice to further grease the wheels of a desysopping. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Who, me? I was just trying to help make a good proposal. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Expression of concern

I want to note that an editor who opposes this proposal has been repeatedly altering the FAQ page. I consider this to be inappropriate, and I am sure that, for example, TenOfAllTrades would not have liked it if supporters were to have altered his comments here. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:30, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Poll

Support

1. Support. It makes very good sense that the same community that confers administrator status at RfA should have the ability to retract that status when confidence has been lost. This proposal have been very carefully thought through, incorporating lessons learned from previous proposals. I urge editors to actually read the proposal: I think that you will find that many of the criticisms raised by opposers are actually not problems with the proposal as it is written. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
2. I agree with Tryptofish. This proposal provides a very moderate process--at least two thirds of the community need to disapprove of an admin for desysopping even to be considered. Ucucha 19:26, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
3. Support. ArbCom could be in the business of evaluating whether admins who haven't directly abused the tools have nevertheless lost community trust, but is poorly poised to do so and a separate process is better. This is not a response to a particularly recent or major crisis but simply remedying the mistake made when initially designing the RfA process: the community grants adminship but cannot take it away. Eluchil404 (talk) 19:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
4. Support The details don't really matter, since they will be changed after this is adopted regardless. The fact that "administrator" privileges are effectively given permanently right now is simply too problematic. This process is way over-processed right now, and I in no way endorse it's current structure, but even an imperfect system is better then nothing.
   — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 22:06, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

   But how can we have a simple CDA process? The details are everything, surely. To adopt it first and work on it later cannot be right. There are other Admin Recall solutions that can be worked on (including RfA), so it is not really 'CDA or nothing'. Matt Lewis (talk) 22:13, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

   Effectively, yes, it is indeed CDA or nothing at this point, since no other proposals have received anywhere near the same degree of traction. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:33, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

5. Support a CDA process. The actual details of the process will be subject to modifications and evolution over time but this is a good place to start. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
6. Support per Martin. Willking1979 (talk) 23:17, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
7. Support a CDA process. Bureaucrats have earned ridiculously high support and trust from the community; granting them the power to remove the sysop bit will do more good than bad. In my mind, this is comparable to the re-evaluation of featured articles. Standards have changed, and the community continues to evolve. Details will be ironed out through RFC processes like this one. ...but what do you think? ~BFizz 23:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
8. Support. The core problem with RfA is that it does not allow us to be bold in electing admins because we cannot revert our decision later should it prove to be a mistake. Is CDA a perfect way to remedy this? No. But it's a reasonable approach. RfA is deeply imperfect itself, but as yet we have developed no better process for appointing admins either.
   I think RfA could be much improved, and the admin ranks greatly broadened, just by giving us the option to withdraw our trust from candidates, once we saw that it was being abused. It's unreasonable to expect us to be able offer our trust to any candidate on an irrevocable basis. Admins serve at the discretion of the community -- yet the community has no ability to enforce that discretion.
   As a recently appointed admin, I want the community to have the power to hold me to their standards on a ongoing basis. If they can be trusted to give me the tools, why can they not be trusted to withdraw them if I fail to live up to their standards? "Admin immunity" has to come to an end. CDA is long, long overdue.--Father Goose (talk) 23:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
9. Support on the basis that, however imperfect this is at the start it will become better as time passes, and a process for formal revocation of use of the tools is most assuredly required. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 23:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
10. Support. My principal objection would be that with a sufficiently noticed poll, a majority should be adequate to remove tools, or even less than that when well-supported by cogent arguments, that's enough hysteresis for protection against frivolous removal. But this proposal is better than nothing, clearly. It provides for self-review, and if it turns out to be damaging, that can be fixed. There will be no mass removals from this process without that additional review of how it is working, good design. --Abd (talk) 23:45, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
11. Support, I think Father Goose puts it extremely well. It has long struck me as ridiculous that the community has had no workable method of establishing loss of trust in admins, and this has actually harmed the standing of admins in general. DuncanHill (talk) 23:49, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
12. Support Accountability is the issue here. Community de-adminship will hold admins accountable to the community and will help prevent them from taking actions that don't have the community's support. Of course the details would have to be worked out not to prevent witch-hunts and the like, but it is important to have a way for the community to recall an admin who hasn't performed to an acceptable standard. ThemFromSpace 00:02, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
13. I don't agree with the idea that this is redundant to ArbCom procedures--it's useful to have a community-driven process, because it's important to decentralize power and because often ArbCom is bogged down or moves slowly. Just because relying on them has worked sometimes in the past (and I'm sure sometimes it has not worked, too) doesn't mean it's going to continue to, or that it's going to be as good as if we had an additional, community-driven process. I don't expect to see a lot of desysopings from this since the bar is really high for passage and since consensus is so hard to obtain on this project, but it's better than nothing (and that's why I don't share the concerns of some opposers that this process will make it too easy to deadmin people who don't deserve it). I'm also seeing in the opposes some quibbles with the procedure, from people who don't object to the notion fundamentally. I think that type of thing may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater and preventing progress. delldot ∇. 00:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
14. support this isn't the same as arbcom. Arbcom can be slow and they can reject cases the community wants heard.--Crossmr (talk) 00:16, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
15. Support This sounds like a good idea, as long as it is not abused. Brambleclawx 00:26, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
16. Support I think that one of wikipedia's biggest problems is that it is extremely hard to oust a poor admin. Santa Claus of the Future (talk) 00:37, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
17. Reluctant Support. I don't believe that arbcom is an effective agent of desysopping. Those who lose the bit tend to be admins with years of abusive behavior. Being a bad admin is not enough; you basically have to beg to have your powers revoked, and be friendless in terms of the committee. IronDuke 01:09, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
18. Support The appointment of users as, essentially, admins for life, is, I believe, harmful to the community and the project, and since there is no move afoot to require re-certification after a certain amount of time, there needs to be a mechanism in place for recalling adminstrators who have overstepped their bounds or misused their power. The current proposal may have flaws in it, but at this time it's the only game in town, and I think it's preferable to have a procedure in place that can be tweaked once its flaws become evident in operation, as opposed to deep-sixing in advance it over some hypotethical flaws that never get confirmed. (The bird in the hand...) Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:31, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
19. Support As has been pointed out, the details are not set in stone. I do not accept that the community as a whole can't be trusted to recognize bad faith nominations of CDA. We are able to sniff that sort of thing out in every other community forum. Opposers who oppose on that basis show a stunning lack of faith in the community. Gigs (talk) 01:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
20. Support - The community should have a method of removing the sysop bit just as they have a hand in granting it, and it should not require ArbCom to do so. -- Atama頭 01:36, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
21. I support per above. Leave Message, Yellow Evan home
22. Support. It's a great start. As IronDuke said, there have been admins with years of abusive behavior that are allowed to continue. This needs to stop. --Kbdank71 02:02, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
23. Support the concept The details can be ironed out once there is consensus on whether there should be a de-admin process at all. I strongly believe that admins should vote in a separate section in this RfC. Many will have valid opinions both in favour and opposition to this proposal, and their voices should be heard, but I can't help but suspect that admin opinion will differ significantly from non-admin opinion. The distinction is clearly relevant. WFCforLife (talk) 02:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
24. Support. --Echosmoke (talk) 02:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
25. Support. This is something that absolutely needs to happen. I'd prefer that the terms were modified to make desysopping easier—I don't like the requirement of having 65% support the desysopping—but this would be a big improvement over the current situation. Everyking (talk) 02:19, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
26. Support. There is vaccum on cases where there is community loss of trust and not so clear abuse of tools. That vaccum is not currently dealt with by ArbCom. Sole Soul (talk) 02:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
27. Support per Father Goose. Bsimmons666 (talk) 02:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
28. Support. It's a shame that this proposal clearly won't pass, as it or something like it is absolutely necessary to restore faith in wikipedia's fractured system of governance. --Malleus Fatuorum 02:54, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
29. Support Effective tenure for life at being an admin has to end, or the RfA process will increasingly grow to resemble, well, real deliberations over tenure. Ray^Talk 02:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
30. Support The community granted the powers of an admin to a user, so it should have the ability to revoke those powers. There should be enough eyes on the process that admins will not be bounced out for no good reason, nor will accusers be allowed to go on a witch hunt without consequences. — MrDolomite • Talk 03:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
31. Support I'm surprised to see such a lack of faith in the community. Surely the "unruly mob" concerns apply to RfA as well? What about implementing CDA on a trial basis, at least? Dabomb87 (talk) 03:15, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
32. Support more accountability sounds good to me—Chris!_c/t 03:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
33. Support I have seen repeated abuse from an admin (imposing his POV and get away with it) so this policy would have came very handy to stop this kind of abuse (as he had the unconditional support of his admin pals, though, it took a couple years for him to finally be de-adm).--Mariordo (talk) 03:46, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
34. Support per above and the fact that people should be able to have a say in this process. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 03:51, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
35. Support per Mariordo and Tryptofish. BejinhanTalk 04:50, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
36. Strong Support: This really needs to happen to curb the abuse by a few. Ret.Prof (talk) 05:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
37. Support. Administrators like Arthur Rubin have proven that we need such a policy. There have been times in the past when administrators have been abusive on an ongoing basis and editors have complained of bias in enforcing rules against such administrators. Rather than imposing lighter sanctions, what I've noticed is that fellow administrators will sometimes judge the level of offense to be less than what it really is, sort of covering up for them in a way... or in other cases, letting the abuse go on longer than they would with the ordinary editor. A policy like this will help to counter such abuse. ClimateGate (talk) 05:20, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
38. Support. But just why Jimmy Wales should have any special right of review, when he has proved incompetent at using the block button himself, is a mystery. I strongly object to that aspect. The previous supporter's example of Arthur Rubin is spot-on, BTW. Tony (talk) 07:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
39. Support Solid proposal overall, and well worth the effort. Cheers. NJA (t/c) 07:53, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
40. Support There may be one or two specifics in the proposal I don't agree with but the overall proposal is fine. Davewild (talk) 08:17, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
41. Support. This isn't perfect, and there are some valid concerns from those opposing, but I do not see this as a great threat to admins who do basically good work, nor as a process ripe for gaming that will be used to settle grudges (there are protections against that). ArbCom has been doing a better job of late dealing with problematic admins, but there's no question that a good chunk of the non-admin (and indeed admin) corps here at en.wikipedia think we need a community process for desysopping. I agree with that, and can pretty easily live with this proposal. I would add that I'm a bit bothered by some comments in the oppose section that suggest 65% non-support from the community is not sufficient to warrant a desysop. We would be talking about dozens of editors (more than 50) and two-thirds of the total saying, "this has gone too far, you are done with adminship." I think it's considerably harder to get those kind of numbers than some opposing might think, and personally I feel that even if 30 some editors who represent only 50% of the total are commenting in favor of desysop the admin should resign, because ultimately one's status as an admin is based on community trust, not on the fact that an RfA was successful once upon a time. While admins who work in difficulty areas deal with a lot of complaints about their actions, there's quite a gulf between saying "you screwed that up" and "turn in the bit right now"—at least for most editors who would bother to take the time to participate in a process like this. I think this thing is worth a shot. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 08:21, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
42. Support because it reduces the amount of power the arbitration committee has, even if it's not that good an idea. Gurch (talk) 08:21, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
43. Support because I have come across a couple of idiot admins in my time on Wikipedia (proving that everyone is human, even admins) so having an easy way to remove them is a good thing.--Simple Bob (talk) 09:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
44. Support In the absence of term limits, something like this is a necessary check on the "Admin for Life" syndrome. Mojoworker (talk) 10:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
45. Support It's a start. The Wiki way is that the process will be modified as it goes along, and stopped completely if it goes wrong. We wouldn't have much on Wikipedia in terms of articles or processes if everything had to be word perfect before it was started. It's interesting to recall why Wikipedia was started - because Nupedia was too bogged down in an extensive peer-review process and was not moving forward. The community wants this process - let's get it moving. This is a decent workable proposal. My guibbles are wordings which make it appear that the process is current practise, or any parts of the process are the result of working consensus. It should be run as a beta version, with a full awareness of everyone involved that the process itself is up for discussion. SilkTork *^YES! 10:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
    1. "The community wants this process - let's get it moving." - I would argue by the results of this poll so far, the community most certainly doesn't want this process. Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 11:06, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

       I've do have a couple of points on the SilkTork's above comment because it appears sensible in many respects (I may have said a lot of it myself at one point):

       1) Regarding the detail being ironed out later, well ok to a degree - but some of it (like admin and canvassing) needed at least some serious work beforehand. I'd like to see at least a possible solution to the various problems before pushing the CDA. It is worrying that so many weak compromises had to be in the proposal (words like "admin must be editing recently" are just too ambiguous). I've seen a little evidence that things would be easier during (or after) a CDA trial to be honest, and it would be a while before every important facet of CDA is covered by examples of use. Is waiting for admin to be put up for CDA the best way to adapt the CDA? I'm not sure it is. Even labelled 'trial', CDA will likely be too disruptive imo, because of what I have come to believe are intrinsic flaws.

       2) Regarding the community 'wanting' CDA - I do very much agree that the community want to see changes regarding admin, but I haven't seen enough evidence that they are particularly crazy about this particular method, despite the expected and understandable support votes. The "Reverse RfA" idea of CDA just didn't take off. CDA doesn't address all the concerns directly, like giving admin 'terms' instead of that "job for life" for example. CDA is a bit of a bandage on a structural problem, in many ways, and a bandage we can't keep clean. I'm not against any form of Admin Recall, I just haven't seen CDA stand up to the various criticisms (or enough attempts to make it stand up to them), and I cannot see CDA better withstand criticism simply for it being trialled. I've seen too much blind faith in CDA coming good, and it's been too protected, quite fiercely so at times. Matt Lewis (talk) 11:28, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

46. Support. It's logical. The community must have the power to change its mind. We can tweak the process once we see how it works. It would be interesting to see how many of the oppose votes come from admins. --Michael C. Price ^talk 11:51, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

    But who are the 'community' who can vote someone in and then can change its mind? 'Community' is a useful general term for a 'broad consensus' here really: so a community "changing its mind" is a situation where a there is a new consensus to remove an admin. While the idea of reverse voting is fine in principle, I good idea alone is just not good enough: the guaranteed negatives of a CDA process (resulting from how the consensus is achieved) far outweigh the possible positives.

    I do hope that this RfC pushed Wikipedia into publically looking at some much needed (and often discussed) changes: Set terms for adminship and a review process for existing admin. I think for that, the time has now come. Well, perhaps not immediately, but it can't be too far off now surely. Matt Lewis (talk) 12:15, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

    Interesting indeed. As at the time of this posting 52% of the oppose votes come from administrators, with only 27% supporting. Kind of obvious who "the community" is I think. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:04, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

47. Support. Administrators should be directly accountable for their actions and potentially will return power to a disenfranchised community from controlling administrators and cabals. TorstenGuise (talk) 12:19, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
48. Support The community give the tools so the community should be able to decide if they retain the tools. Also it will be interesting as stated above to see the amount of Admins who will oppose. Mo ainm (talk) 12:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
49. Support I think whichever beaureaucrat, steward, closing this poll, should research how many of the votes in either direction are sockpuppets, as this is a very weighty important poll. In any case, I personally view this, as, although it might warrant some small changes here or there, the best solution so far to some important problems (see Five Problems with a Single Solution), by the way thanks to commenters urging me to temper this comment's earlier form. :p sometimes I put my foot in my mouth. --Lyc. cooperi (talk) 12:45, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

    Five Problems with a Single Solution is a good argument that some form of deadminship was needed, and were this only a poll an whether, in-principle to support such an idea, I would supoort it. But this is a poll on a specific, detailed proposal. That proposal does not look like being the solution envisioned by "Five Problems" to me -- indeed one of the points in "Five Problems" was that any "RfDA" process must be appealable to arbcom, which this process is not. Any supporter ought, IMO to consider not just the need for a deadminship process, but the merits and flaws of the specific proposed process. You may have doen so, but your comment, like many above, does not mention those merits and flaws at all. DES ^(talk) 13:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

50. Support. Many ArbCom desysop motions have been on the basis that a specific administrator has lost the community's trust. Clearly ArbCom thinks admins should serve at the will of the community. A poll like the proposed CDA is a much better way of gauging the community's will than the opinion of fifteen individuals of what that will is. --GRuban (talk) 13:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
51. Support. Necessary. The standards have been quite high after extensive preliminary polling and discussions to prevent abuse. Pcap ping 14:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
52. Support The community decides who becomes an admin, the community deserves the right to desysop. I think this proposal works as well as any we could come up with. Angryapathy (talk) 15:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
53. Support A community process to remove adminship is, in my opinion, an important part of having a community-led wiki. Orpheus (talk) 16:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
54. Support I think the points made about indirect effects of having CDA in place are important, i.e. that it can take some pressure off the RfA process, no longer being irrevocable, and so on. Also, the argument back and forth about whether the Admin being recalled can respond, is overblown. I think it's obvious the Admin should respond and should be given a prominent section in which to do so, not buried down within the Opposes. But that is a technicality about operation of the CDA process, which would rapidly be amended to allow special designation of the Admin's response. --doncram (talk) 17:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
55. We have long been in the vicious cycle that RFA keeps raising the bar for prospective admins because of how hard it is to get rid of problematic admins, and that the ArbCom often shies away from de-adminning people because of how hard it is for them to regain the mop. Indeed, RFA success rates are at an all-time low. We need to break the cycle, both because adminship is No Big Deal, and because accountability is a Good Thing. >Radiant< 17:36, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

1. ArbCom have been more willing to desysop administrators who have shown to use the tools poorly. Generally speaking, if an RfC comes to the consensus that an administrator no longer holds the trust of the community, ArbCom will desysop them. I don't personally believe there is a problem to fix. I fear that if this proposal was to move forward, a lynch mob mentality would result and administrators who deal with controversial issues would regularly be brought through the community deadminship process. I also fear that administrators who make one mistake would also be sent through the deadminship process. All in all, I believe it will lower morale in the admin corps. Whilst the RfC, then to ArbCom route might not be ideal, I believe it serves as a good check and balance. Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 19:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
2. This proposal is likely to be harmful on a number of levels, discouraging adminstrators from boldly responding to sensitive and complex issues, while encouraging those who would use wiki-process to pursue personal grudges and vendettas. The current system, meanwhile, is humming along very nicely. I know of no administrator in the past 2-3 years whom ArbCom did not desysop, when presented with evidence of flagrant abuse of the tools, or place on probation which would lead to desysopping "next time," when presented with evidence of severe error or other inappropriate use. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:21, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
3. For the reasons exhaustively detailed above (#Flaws in this process noted by TenOfAllTrades) I must oppose this proposal. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
4. Oppose: I've put a lot of work into CDA since I found it flagging a little in a 'Motion to Close' at the end of Dec (over 100 hours - and this is important to note), and a lot of it is still in there. In my experience the proposal hasn't been that carefully considered (serious discussion on the central Canvassing issue was very 'last minute'), and at least one major consensus has been ignored - the desire for a higher 'threshold' percentage (clearly to me, 85% was a conservative 'mean average' of the voting results - not 80%, but the vote itself was disputed. A lot of people rather prefered the Bureaurats to make the decision, not the "percentages" so-to-speak, and felt it shouldn't be too low). During my work on CDA, I have defended CDA quite passionately at times (eg "don't so be angry and cynical in your opposition", "we must give it a go" etc), but my eventual realisation is that CDA cannot work. A CDA-related AN/I on me made me realise what I had been blind to: the rapid amount of support (almost instant support) designed with no other intention than to get a decent editor into trouble. Selfish perhaps - but it was a real epiphany regarding CDA. It wasn't the editors that concerned me (I expected certain people to turn up) - it was the admin involved in it all. It was so unpleasant that I asked myself "does Wikipedia really need this?". A decent Canvassing section (and despite attempts, this CDA proposal doesn't quite have one) can possibly prevent a number of editors causing mayhem even before an official CDA starts (enough to be worth trialing CDA anyway). But it cannot stop admin - who are easily in contact - behaving badly, and supporting each other instinctively, and as various 'favours', as they so often do. We cannot be in denial about these things. Admin are editors too, and are fully capable of attacking another admin unfairly (and extremely bitterly too), and I cannot believe that any Bureaucrat would want that to be played out in such a public forum. CDA will prejudice Wikipedia itself - before, during and after the CDA, and the Bureaucrats decisions could become impossible to make fairly. The Crats just wouldn't be interested in it. I worry that chasing decent-but-awkward admin will even be the 'norm' with CDA nominations, as most of the 'canny' admin could easily escape CDA anyway. Decent admin are easier to catch. CDA is not the only possible version of Admin Recall though, and RfA (the actual 'Request For Adminship' process) can still be improved, regardless of any form of Admin Recall that might be in existence. Basically, CDA is an unwashable bandage on a structural complaint. We need to get to the root of the problem: the quality of the RfA process (esp in the past, where it was much easier to become an admin), and the actual wisdom in awarding someone we don't really know such a veritable booty in the first place (eg such powerful and varied block tools, and a "job for life" over a sensible term). Matt Lewis (talk) 20:29, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
5. Oppose: I largely agree with TenOfAllTrades's analysis. I also feel that there's far too much drama on Wikipedia already, and CDA would simply add to this, without, I think, giving us much benefit in return. Scog (talk) 21:31, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
6. To be direct, I simply don't trust the Community to not abuse this ability. They (collectively; as one) are too quick to rush to judgment (generally speaking). Given the arbitration committee's willingness to desysop as of late, as Ryan P. points out above, I'm comfortable that any administrators who really should have their rights removed will have them removed. - Rjd0060 (talk) 23:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
7. A solution just screaming out for a problem.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:11, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
8. Oppose - I agree with a lot of what TenOfAllTrades has said. I also take issue with the supporters' proposed stance of "working out the details later". This is certainly a case of where the details matter, and at present, this is only going to lead to more drama. (Note: this doesn't imply that I have a solution, only that I think the proposed idea is worse than doing nothing). -- Bfigura ^(talk) 23:12, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

   Not true that supporters all think details are to be done later. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

   While I'm not trying to say that all supporters were in favor of working out the details later, at least two currently are. I'm merely stating that I disagree with them (not trying to put words in anyone's mouth). -- Bfigura ^(talk) 23:18, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

   I think it should be clear that the details can change, through normal processes of consensus for change. The long build-up to this proposal might give some the idea that it is now "finalized". No policy or process on Wikipedia is ever finalized. Gigs (talk) 01:37, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

   I understand. But if we implement a flawed CDA policy (like this one), the flaws won't get fixed until after they've been used to axe an admin or two. I don't see a reason to risk the damage, since I haven't seen any persuasive arguments as to why CDA is needed in the first place. -- Bfigura ^(talk) 04:30, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

9. Bureaucracy creep. The ArbCom is perfectly sufficient. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 23:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
10. Oppose: I believe the net harm to the encyclopedia will outweigh the benefits of weeding out a few bad apples. ArbCom is sufficient, and I hate to see abuse paralyze the already understaffed and overworked admin corps. bahamut0013^words_deeds 23:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
11. Oppose I was expecting to support CDA. After reading the comments by TenOfAllTrades above, i think the current proposal is fatally flawed. I do think that a revised proposal, which deals with some or all of his concerns, might be worth enacting, but in light of the recent Craigy144 case, i am not convinced that there is as much urgency about this as IMO there once was. DES ^(talk) 23:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

    I want to be clar, i suport the idea of CDA in principle, i have long though that some sort of community-driven process for removal of admin tools was needed. But I can't support thsi proposal, particularly not on a promise "oh we'll fix the details later". And the problem was worse when the ArbCom would only desysop for the most egriguious misuse of the tools. DES ^(talk) 00:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

12. While the proposal has some subconscious immediate appeal (live by the sword, die by the sword), the fact that no bright line is drawn—nor is there a mechanism proposed for defining one—makes this difficult to support. At a minimum there ought to be a mechanism to attract the attention of a random sampling of impartial editors to review the CDA, and a clear mechanism for them to interact with the agrieved (including none at all) and agree on the true facts of the matter, and how that relates to a de-sysopment verdict. —EncMstr (talk) 23:41, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
13. I agree with many of TenOfAllTrades's points, especially those regarding procedural fairness. I'm also not a big fan of the "requiring 10 people to support before the process actually starts" part. On one hand it helps to prevent frivolous requests, on the other hand, it runs the risk of starting inertia toward support before the process even begins. One of the main reasons that ArbCom elections switched to a secret ballot was so that the early voters wouldn't have the ability to set inertia and have their comments in the prominent position at the top of the section where they might have a disproportionate effect on later voters. This has a similar risk, except it would always force it in one direction. Given that ArbCom seems more willing to deal with cases through motions, I don't think this process is necessary as it may have been a year or so ago. Mr.Z-man 23:45, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
14. I'm very much worried about any proposal which would place administrators at the mercy of any mob that has an agenda to push. I would support a proposal for some sort of streamlined (and more orderly) RfC-like mechanism which makes the community's will known — something which this proposal approaches — but not make it binding without the check and balance of the committee being the final word.

    Frankly, the relative inertia of the committee in cases of desysoping is a good thing; and there is nothing that would prevent the committee to simply "rubber stamp" by motion the result of any process that was fairly run and where concerns were properly heard. — Coren ^(talk) 23:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

15. I like the general idea of community-driven de-admining, but cannot support this proposal. In particular, I'm sure we would see admins who take action against any large, vocal group facing CDAs, causing a natural reduction in admin boldness. (This is a corollary to TenOfAllTrades's point about procedural fairness.)
    Designing a robust CDA procedure would be quite difficult and (I suspect) not a productive use of our time. I think Coren's suggestion (immediately above) is a much better option. CWC 00:14, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
16. Oppose- I agree with many of the points put across by TenOfAllTrades. I believe ArbCom is sufficient in dealing with admins who should have their adminship removed. I think the system proposed would be too easy to abuse. ^OohBunnies!...speak 00:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
17. Oppose drama magnet. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
18. I am afraid that this will become Wikipedia's grand theater of High Drama. I am also concerned that editors who have been justifiably sanctioned by administrators, including some who are very frequent guests at AN/I and similar fora, will use this mechanism against good cops. There are plenty of persistent troublemakers with more than the requisite account age and edit count, and well more than 10 of them can be rounded up in short order. I don't want administrators, or other editors for that matter, spending unnecessary time in recall proceedings, when they can better spend that time enforcing Wikipedia's policies and guidelines and improving Wikipedia's articles. The existing mechanisms are sufficient to deal with the very small minority of administrators who abuse their authority or tools.—Finell 00:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
19. I count two critical flaws. First: the committee is an important check on any movement that seeks the removal of administrator rights, but it is entirely ignored in this proposal as it stands. Second: the proposal holds that 65% in support of a desysopping means that there is a consensus to remove sysop rights. Hardly—anything lower than eighty would be unacceptable.

    A community de-sysopping process should exist. And this proposal has clearly had a lot of work put into it. (Those editors who are its proponents have my thanks for their efforts in tackling what has long been an elephant in the room.) But a CDA process must incorporate a requirement to have the advice and consent of the arbitration committee in relation to every desysopping, as otherwise we will suffer quite grievously from the problems that Ryan Postlethwaite and Coren envisage. And we need to set the bar much, much higher, to reduce the incidence of trigger-happy desysoppings. A good start, but adjustments are needed. AGK 00:54, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

20. Oppose - This seems less like a reasonable tool for quality control and more a way for people angry at admins to go on the offensive. I see the word "community" in here but I'm not seeing the mechanism that somehow accurately represents the will of something so large. Is there no intermediate step that could be tried first before resorting to this mob magnet? Rob Banzai (talk) 01:00, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
21. I oppose out of one specific concern that I don't feel can be adequately expressed by this or many other CDA proposals. I mean very well for those who deliberated upon the topic and worked and compromised to get this package of a proposal. I hope this process serves as a model for processes in the future. Regardless, my concern is that this role is not only handled by the Arbitration Committee competently, but more fairly than a community de-adminship process could. While arbitration cases by design scrutinize each party as the embattled editors they are, CDA is inherently biased towards the administrator; even if the nominees are scrutinized, it's the administrator whose name gets put on the CDA and its the administrator around whom all discussion is focused. This is especially problematic in cases where a lynchmob goes after an administrator who made a controversial yet appropriate decision. Because of these things, I feel I must oppose for now. harej 01:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
22. Oppose - On balance this seems more troubling than helpful and as someone has said, a drama magnet. I am not convinced that there is a sufficient problem requiring this particular solution. I am happy to allow arbcom to handle wayward admins. JodyB _talk 01:21, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
23. Oppose - Leave it to arbcom, there is no need for an additional layer of drama. Letting admins run the gauntlets to see if they make it to the other side is not the way to go. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 01:29, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
24. Oppose - I don't see a need for it and as many have highlighted above, ArbCom can deal with this issue effectively and in a balanced manner. If anything is needed then it would be an extension and formalising of an ArbCom process. → AA ^(talk) — 01:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

    Having read other comments and opinions, I want to add that what I think could work is an "admin suspension" policy as a compromise, with ArbCom having the final say on either re-instating or revoking admin rights permanently. Pre-requisites for initiating this action would be clear evidence that admin tools have been abused on a number of occassions and could in fact be a quicker route to "suspending" abusive admins than this proposal suggests but I still oppose this process as it is too easy to be abused by blocs of editors with a grudge and will keep admins away from dealing the controversial subjects. → AA ^(talk) — 09:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

25. I oppose this due to the numerous flaws pointed out above by TenOfAllTrades.--Rockfang (talk) 01:46, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
26. Oppose, with reservations. Although the community gives the admin bit, you might assume it should also be able to also take it away. However, in my experience, it does not take much effort for a momentum to develop against an admin who, although generally competent, has made a few bad decisions. ArbCom emergency de-sysopping exists if that gets gross, and Arbcom can apply conditions for re-sysopping. Otherwise, RfC and RfArb exist. I don't think we need further process as an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy. Rodhullandemu 01:53, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
27. Oppose due to terms of process, though I may support an alternate form of community de-adminship. The currently stated requirement of "most of those above approximately 80% support for removal are passed, while most of those below approximately 65% fail, and the area in between is subject to Bureaucratic discretion" leaves an excessively large amount of discretionary power to 'crats, in my opinion. Policy that spells out the possibility of de-adminship with 65% (or near it) support is ludicrous. If that's the criteria, ArbCom alone is a much better solution than the proposed process. Steven Walling 01:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
28. Oppose - I agree with Tenofalltrades' arguments sufficiently to give me serious misgivings about this proposal. A modified Arbcom process might serve the community better. dramatic (talk) 02:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
29. Oppose No ta, bad idea and open to manipulation and agenda driven desysopping. The Arbs are willing to desysop for cause so what problem are we solving here? Spartaz ^Humbug! 02:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
30. Oppose. I could see this being open to some abuse as per Spartaz, plus, the arbitration committee is willing to desysop for cause. Removal for cause by ArbCom makes sure that all other methods were exhausted, and establishes firm grounds for removal. This proposal seems to make the administrator position into political office rather than something closer to civil service. SchuminWeb (Talk) 02:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
31. Oppose. Popularity contest. Hesperian 02:52, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
32. I've been on the fence over this whole issue for a while. Ryan's points above, combined with Tenofalltrade's arguments have convinced me that it is a bad idea. Personally, I think that ArbCom does a perfectly fine job of desysopping admins who have actually done wrong, without getting the ones who just made bad decisions. I fear that if this proposal is enacted, a few admins will get their rights revoked for less than what they get now, which is perfectly fine. This is a well-thought out and well-intended proposal, but I cannot support it. (X! · talk)  · @174  ·  03:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
33. Oppose A bad idea on several counts. Most obviously because it's not as if we have dozens of rogue admins running around damaging wikipedia. Arbcom, and the common sense of admins who resign, seems to do the job fairly well. But, beyond that, we hardly need more processes floating around and politicizing wikipedia. Enough time is already spent on various processes (navel gazing at WT:RFA is the prime example) and we definitely don't need more work for admins responding to questions and defending their actions in a desysop poll of sorts. One must bear in mind that this is a volunteer effort and adding more layers of non-encyclopedic work is hardly the direction we should be moving in. Finally, Wikipedia:Community_de-adminship/FAQ#7._Q:_Is_CDA_is_trying_to_resolve_any_existing_problems.3F is full of wishful thinking. One could argue the opposite on "beneficial" claims made there. Rather than act as a 'beneficial deterrent' it might be a detrimental deterrent with admins unwilling to take tough decisions. It might also be a 'detrimental deterrent' to running for RfA - why bother if ten editors and their socks can put you through the mill all over again. --RegentsPark (talk) 03:11, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
34. Oppose having been on the arbitration committee and in my time (and afterwards) there tried to highlight arbcom's role in reviewing admin tools, I can confidently say it is the least drama-inducing way of reviewing admin tools. The main problem I have noted in the past 12 months or so is a reluctance for the community to request a case of reviewing tools to the arbitration committee, not the committee's reluctance to take them. Another observation made while I was involved was that one of the areas where wikipedia needs admins the most is the trouble-spots, that is, articles and subjects which have been the subject of arbitration cases and are under some form of probation. It is these areas where admins using tools can quickly come under fire from one (or both) 'sides' if they have made actions viewed as unpopular. I fear a bloc of editors, especially eloquent or political ones, could easily take revenge by a path such as this. Hence this proposal could worsen admin shortage in wikipedia's sore spots. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
35. Oppose. This was never a viable proposal (with this much discussion above, I have nothing to add on the subject of why that is), and it has been frankly disheartening to see editors with good intentions continuing to push refining it when any number of people have pointed out that fine details aren't what dooms such proposals. I hope the editors involved (who have, I repeat, good intentions) will accept at some point that it's time to stop moving on this. My apologies if the previous sounds patronizing; I don't know how else to say it, and it needs to be said. — Gavia immer (talk) 03:58, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
36. Oppose—see my detailed rationale. Chick Bowen 04:16, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
37. Oppose. I'm against this for the same reason I support Life time appointments for Supreme court. If a single controversial action by an Admin can bring down wrath of a small group of editors, and then have a single beaurocrate make a up/down vote it corrupts the integrity of the adminship. I'm all for oversight but this method would cause admins to play ball to much to accomodate everyone, or worse it would cause them to not take an action strictly to maintain their position rather then because it is the right thing to do. Smitty1337 (talk) 04:17, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
38. Oppose. Far too many flaws as pointed out by TenOfAllTrades (talk · contribs). — ξ^xplicit 04:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
39. Oppose. User:TenOfAllTrades has pointed out many flaws that need to be dealt with, including the "10 votes in the hole" problem and the short time limit.--TorriTorri^{(Talk to me!)} 04:46, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
40. Oppose. Would open a new arena for massive drama and would politicize adminship to an unacceptable degree. If there were multiple, recent instances in which ArbCom had failed to act when desysopping was clearly appropriate, I'd reconsider. But WP isn't a popularity contest, and this would be simply one more way to distract from building and maintaining the encyclopedia. Rivertorch (talk) 04:48, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
41. Oppose. This proposal is an invitation to mischeif and creates a disincentive for admins to take necessary actions that are not also popular. There is already sufficient procedure to rein in truly rogue admins. This process will snare some bold admins and turn others into capons. David in DC (talk) 04:53, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
42. If Matt Lewis is out then I'm definitely out, and I was never in in the first place. Ten has it pretty well nailed. Franamax (talk) 05:02, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
43. Oppose. I simply don't see where there are all of these cases where there has been refusal to remove admin privileges when adequate evidence has been provided. We can't risk admins becoming timid when difficult decisions have to be made and we should avoid yet more layers of rules and yet more places for people to argue when they should be writing an encyclopedia. SteveBaker (talk) 05:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
44. User:TenOfAllTrades and User:Matt Lewis echo many of the concerns I have had since this proposal was raised. Speaking as an editor, I feel that the proposal's problems outweigh its benefits, and would still prefer to see a subcommittee of arbcom serving to expedite Admin-abuse issues. Speaking as a bureaucrat, should this pass, I will accept the community's decision and do my best (as always) to implement the community's consensus in any CDA discussions. -- Avi (talk) 05:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
45. Per many of the above comments, there are simply too many potentials for abuse in this particular process as set forth now. I have no blanket opposition to such a process, but really: some of the concerns TenOfAllTrades lists above are dead simple--like the right of the admin to respond to the accusations--and the fact that they remain outstanding and unresolved demonstrates that this is not yet ready for adoption. Jclemens (talk) 05:45, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
46. Oppose Too much potential for gaming. Not going to touch other arguments, due to my Conflict of Interest. SirFozzie (talk) 05:53, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
47. Weak Oppose I think that the concept of community requested de-adminship is valid; however the details of this particular proposal need work. I didn't see anywhere in the proposal where the administrator can defend him/herself. Notanonymous0 (talk) 06:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
48. Oppose CDA would be too vulnerable to political games. Further, a pressing need for this policy has not been demonstrated as we already have systems in place to de-admin that can work faster than the proposal. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 06:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
49. Oppose Spartaz's point about manipulation is well-made. Opening the de-admin process to community vote would expose Wikipedia to a new kind of troll: people who vote in CDA polls to de-admin someone purely for their own amusement and attempts to cause as much havoc with the process as possible. It will be next to impossible to weed out such under-the-radar-flying troublemakers. 3.14 (talk) 06:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
50. Oppose, when an admin goes off the rails, there are many ways to get them to stop. Blocking or banning come to mind. Community disapprobation is also a powerful tool. Then there is arbcom, which I consider to be functional enough to handle a real problem admin. This proposal will only handle admins who rub people the wrong way but operate within the rules. We need more people like that, not less. Speciate (talk) 06:52, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
51. 'Oppose per what Ryan Postlethwaite, MrZ-man, and others have said. The proposal seems to have too much room in it so that the system can be gamed, more drama can be had (then is necessary), etc. Killiondude (talk) 07:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
52. Opppose. I can only see this as causing more problems and more drama than it seeks to prevent. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:04, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
53. Oppose, this proposal will guarantee that any unpopular but needed tasks will never get done. It also is extremely prone to provide agenda-driven grief and drama to last for at least a couple of buckets of popcorn per week. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 08:57, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
54. Oppose. This is why we have ArbCom. They are there to review the evidence dispasisonately, this process can be abused by grudge-bearers and will deter admins from taking necessary but unpopular actions. There has been no significant delay in ArbCom desysopping abusive admins in recent times. There is merit in suspension of tools during consideration of arbitration cases on abuse of tools, I think that is the only change we actually need here. The complexity of the proposal is an excellent indication that this is an issue fraught with massive difficulties, and in the heat of the moment we, as a community, are spectacularly bad at handling nuanced situations. I commend also Ten of All Trades' exceptionally thorough review, which points out numerous serious and inherent flaws in the proposed process. So, leave it to the arbitrators. Guy (Help!) 09:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
55. This just inflates the idea that adminship is a big deal. There need not be a bureaucratic process to remove what should be and always have been janitorial tools. WP:RFA and adminship in general should be reassessed such that the "power" and/or stigma should not be attached to a "Block" button, a "Delete" button, and a "Protect" button. Adminship should be easier to take away and give, like it is on nearly all of the other Wikimedia projects. As it stands, the arbitration committee and processes do a good enough job removing the tools when the community feels it is necessary as I am very well aware.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 09:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
56. Oppose this particular method, per WP:DRAMA. It's possible that a reasonable CDA could be developed (although I can't imagine what it would be.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
57. Oppose Arbcom appears to be handling this already --Magicus69 09:59, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
58. Oppose the problem with compulsory de-adminship processes is that many administrative actions, even if done perfectly, will make an administrator a lot of enemies. If these enemies decide to use the de-adminship process then the administrator will end up in a long, drawn-out fight to save their neck and with no guarantee that dispassionate members of the community will outnumber those with grudges. We already have people supporting this proposal "because admin X would be a good candidate for it". With ArbCom this problem does not arise, because if the people with grudges can't present solid evidence then the case will be declined quite quickly. The proposed process doesn't offer any way of countering this problem, and the removal percentages have been imported from RfA - which is a different process entirely. Hut 8.5 10:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
59. Oppose Bureaucrats not competent to close. Hipocrite (talk) 10:04, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
60. Oppose — In reading through all of the comments here, I'm reminded of a famous saying: "What is right is not always popular; what is popular is not always right". By placing the actions and decisions up to a popular vote through this process, elements of the community can and will seek to substitute its opinion for the judgement of an administrator. The admins were all elected or selected by the community to exercise their individual judgements. Many times a single admin will be called upon to make a single decision. That's why we as a community have them in place. The RfA process is designed to vet them for sound judgement in the first place. Yes, I acknowledge that good people don't accept nominations at RfA, and I acknowledge that the community, in good faith or otherwise, as individuals give the bit to people who turn out to be bad choices. I came here today thinking that I would be supporting the proposal, but I can't in good conscience let factions of aggrieved editors use CDA as a forum to seek retribution and retaliation against administrators that utilize the tools given to them, in good faith, for the benefit of the encyclpedia. Looking to the US Constitution for an example of guidance, members of the federal judiciary "shall hold their Offices during good Behavior" (US Cont. Art. III Sec. 1). This does not make them immune to being removed, rather they must be impeached by the House of Representatives and convicted by the Senate. The analog on Wikipedia already exists in RfCs referred to the Arbitration Committee. We already have the tools and the people in place to impartially judge administrator action, so this proposal is instruction creep and bureaucracy creep. Returning to the quote I used to open my comments, popular opinion may not provide the right solution in a situation. In all actuality, the right solution will likely ruffle feathers from time to time. Imzadi1979 (talk) 10:16, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
61. Oppose This seems to be a solution looking for a problem to solve, and would serve no purpose other than to make it easier for disruptive editors to harass admins. I agree with Hut 8.5's comments above - by the nature of the job us admins upset disruptive editors, some of whom bear grudges (which extend to a genuinely irrational level with surprising frequency), and there's no need to give these editors extra opportunities for disruption when ArbCom and the various appeals processes provide a high level of protection against irresponsible admins. Nick-D (talk) 10:19, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
62. Oppose It would be too vulnerable and would create a space for political games and possible abuse. ArbCom is sufficient. - Darwinek (talk) 12:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
63. Oppose - I appreciate the need for the community to be able to remove admins, but this process still smacks of knee-jerkism for all the work that was put into it. Permitted canvassing makes it to easy to game the process or turn it into a popularity contest (a clever user can coach people on what to say to keep their opinions from being discounted) and shunting the admin's defense to the talk page really is a big deal. Instead of canvassing I'd rather the nominating editor have to gather signatures the same way they do for an RfC, and once certified there should be a site-wide notice about the CDA, just like there was for this RfC. ArbCom has the ability to act swiftly in emergency situations, so we can take the time to work out a process that provides a bit more room for due process than this.--~TPW (trade passing words?) TPW is the editor formerly known as otherlleft 12:48, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
64. Oppose - I wouldn't be an admin (not that anyone would ask) for all the tea in China. Sometimes the get it wrong. Mostly they get it right. We don't need this. Fmph (talk) 13:11, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
65. Oppose - I trust the current ArbCom, and this is quite enough for me.--Fox1942 (talk) 13:42, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
66. Oppose per previous comments I've made regarding the development of this proposal (in particular the way less bureaucratic and otherwise more desirable alternatives were sidelined after the first Administrator Recall RFC) and its outcome. Rd232 ^talk 13:54, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
67. Oppose - Just don't like the what the community gives, the community can take away sort of thinking. The community attracted to this sort of procedure have the potential to turn it into a kangaroo court. Admins on the whole do a pretty good job and as volunteers they dont need a vehicle such as CDA being available to editors with axes to grind. The existing procedures (RfC escalating to ArbCom) are by far the best way to deal with admins perceived to be not up to scratch. --Bill Reid | (talk) 14:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
68. Oppose - The proposal introduces new levels of complexity to wikipedia's existing byzantine order. I'm also a fan of KISS which this violates. -Quartermaster (talk) 15:04, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
69. Oppose There are perfectly good means of desysopping a problematic admin. This proposed process feels too vulnerable and easily abused to be an improvement on the current system. ALI ^{nom nom} 15:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
70. I used to support a form of a community de-adminship, but the flaws that Ten of All Trades points out in the current proposal are too serious to ignore.  Sandstein  16:26, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
71. Oppose There is already too much drama in the many venues for Wikipedia processes, and I think this will just add to it, taking resources away from other, needed, areas. I was almost convinced by the 'review' after five CDAs, or one year, but it's the drama leading up to an official CDA that will be so time consuming. And we already have a remedy for this procedure. Sorry supporters, I oppose. DD2K (talk) 16:57, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
72. Oppose — It should be substantially more difficult, and more objective, dispassionate, and neutral, to remove an administrator than it is to create one. By creating an administrator we are, by definition, moving away from the pure-wiki ideal by entrusting them with additional powers to act in those situations where ordinary editors cannot be trusted not to abuse those powers. Administrators — and I am not one — need the freedom to act without fear of having to defend themselves except in those rare instances when they have, in fact, abused their trust. ArbCom works just fine for that. — TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 17:04, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Neutral

1. Personally, I've never had a problem with an administrator & so there's not much chance I'd nominate one for CDA. Having said that, if this CDA passes or fails? I won't complain eitherway. GoodDay (talk) 19:29, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
2. Neutral. While having this method to de-sysop ones who seem to be unfitting for this "rank" seems to be a good idea, I don't think someone who would actually be prove to be incompetent would be given sysop rights. SpecB (talk) 23:23, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

   A desysopping process would be more likely to have as its subject administrators who had lost the trust of the community in their fitness for office than administrators who were incompetent. As you say, those who can't do their job usually don't get elected. AGK 01:06, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

3. I like the idea, but the opposers bring up good points. There needs to be a better defined plan to limit abuse of a de-adminship system. Griffinofwales (talk) 00:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
4. Neutral as I am fine with whatever the community decides. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:36, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
5. Neutral in principle I approve of the idea of the community of editors having a greater say in who holds the reigns of power, but there are just too many doubts in my mind, raised by TenofAllTrades. And admittedly, coming from a limited perspective, while I have disagreed with only a very small number of admin calls, I have never really seen something that would make me want to recall one. I might be more open to a different plan.LonelyBeacon (talk) 03:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
6. I generally feel that posting a "neutral" is pointless and I very rarely do it, but I find myself torn here. Although I wrote one of the early proposals and participated in the initial discussions, I did so only because it seemed to me this was something a lot of users wanted and it was important to get it right, not because I think we are overwhelmed with bad admins. I have since developed serious concerns that any such process can and will be abused no matter what safeguards we may try to place on it, and I for one do not wish to be party to a witch hunt. There are most certainly a few users who can't wait for this to be implemented because they hold a grudge against one or more specific admins, and the last thing we need is more drama. Also, it does seem that ArbCom has been willing to deal with more f these cases and to handle them in an expedient manner that reflects the communities will. On the other hand, it's hard to argue with the idea that the community grants adminship and should therefore be permitted to revoke it without being forced to appeal to ArbCom. So, I'm just not sure which way to swing on this. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:23, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
7. The admins who are not fit to be admins in the eyes of the community, would never respect any CDA proposal, whether the community supported it or not. These are the admins who have contempt for the community and think interpretation of policy has nothing to do with the community at all. The community is an irritant to them once they have their bit. It is just sad that some of them are so far up the food chain that even arbcom will not touch them either. It's rotten to the core. Still, 'no big deal', and all that BS. MickMacNee (talk) 11:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
8. While a community de-adminship process is needed, what is actually missing is a more formal process for enabling the community to administer any and all user sanctions, rather than just a de-adminship process. I developed a model Recall/De-adminship process a few years ago while the ArbCom RFC was active here: User:Amerique/Community_recall, but basically quit working on it after coming to the realization that what was actually needed was a viable system of "Community Arbitration," (or "ComArb!") something similar to ArbCom process with evidence, workshop and decision pages but allowing for participation of all editors in good standing in crafting all binding decisions, retaining the ArbCom as a court of appeals or for dealing with cases involving information that couldn't be discussed on wiki. The development of such a system would empower the community to take disciplinary matters into its own hands and thereby lighten ArbCom's caseload. (But I don't have the time to develop it myself so anyone interested would have to work on it if they want to see anything like this become a pragmatic possibility in the future.) Amerique^dialectics 11:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments

• If the number of regular contributers continue to stabilize, the admins group will gradually become the largest group in Wikipedia. They will become "the community". Sole Soul (talk) 03:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

  No, it won't. Most people aren't and never will be administrators. Gurch (talk) 08:23, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I mean the people who participate in discussions, like the current unreferenced BLPs discussion and this discussion. Sole Soul (talk) 08:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

While our total number of admins is still growing, and the number of active admins recently revived slightly, we currently have 881 active admins, down from over a thousand at its peak. Without a major change at RFA I don't see admins being anything other than a dwindling minority in the foreseeable future. ϢereSpielChequers 14:15, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The number might stabilize, but the people who make up the number won't. The number stabilizing just means that the number joining is equal to the number quitting. There will still be "new" regular contributors, and old ones will still retire. Mr.Z-man 14:58, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

“ It is no big deal. ” — Jimbo Wales

• There isn't anything wrong with that, so long as they are all competent... It'll just eliminate backlogs. NativeForeigner ^Talk/_Contribs 05:21, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

You do realize that the earth isn't flat, right? This quote was from years ago when it was no big deal. This page has a few sentences on the subject. - Rjd0060 (talk) 12:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps, what's needed is for administrators to face re-elections. GoodDay (talk) 15:45, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking that as well, and I'm sure it was raised in the early discussions. I recently discovered that the Urban Dead wiki now has a full-fledged community appointment process that includes an automatic process of comment in order for them to keep the bit. They took the good from here and ran with it.--~TPW (trade passing words?) TPW is the editor formerly known as otherlleft 17:03, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I have made the same comment elsewhere recently. Even the President of the United States only gets a four year term. If adminship is "no big deal", then why is it a "for life" appointment? Jusdafax 17:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

About regularly-scheduled re-elections, there was (big surprise!) a lot of discussion of that earlier. The problem (among others) is that, with the number of administrators, it would take multiple simultaneous re-elections ongoing for several years just to get through the administrators we have now. The numbers are impractical. By the way, please note this: a reconfirmation RfA would require the administrator to get approx. 70% support, whereas CDA would require only approx. 30% support. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

That's certainly what's needed, but equally certainly it's not going to happen any more than this proposal is going to go anywhere. Telling that over 50% of the opposers are administrators, with only 27% supporting don't you think? --Malleus Fatuorum 17:15, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I've actually been pleased with how many administrators have worked on and supported this proposal. I'm not making any predictions about the outcome here, but I do remember that the notorious "motion to close" was passing by a wide margin about 24 hours after it opened, but as time went on, it was rejected two-to-one. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:21, 23 February 2010 (UTC)