Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 June 25: Difference between revisions

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25 June 2007

Tony Rumble

Closing admin used WP:SNOW with two "votes" for this; eight similar Afd's also closed with SNOW after very little input or time elapsed. John Vandenberg 13:16, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:SNOW was not used as the main reason, it was used as a second incidental reason. I believe, I gave my reasoning for closing in all. IMO, the articles didnt stand a chance. Anyways, feel free to overturn and relist for discussion. --soum ^talk 13:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WP:N is a guideline, and requires concensus for deletion, and five days is the time allocated to allow people to respond. Closing it after 12 hours is relying entirely on SNOW to do the close. All nine closes should be undone immediately to allow them to continue. John Vandenberg 13:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overthrow and return to AfD. I understand soum's comment as agreeing to this, so i suggest Speedy.DGG 13:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I was surprised at how quickly they were closed, but given the total lack of sources (most rely on myspace) I figured that WP:SNOW was as good a reason as any, I don't see the article being improved in the next four days. Darrenhusted 13:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kelly Moore (non-fiction writer)

This was deleted with the comment "Biographical article that does not assert significance" four times by the same admin. The admin was asked on his talk page to restore, and has not responded. The article says "Moore co-wrote the true-crime novel Deadly Medicine with ex-husband Dan Reed in the early 80s. The 295-page work went on to become a New York Times best-seller for seven weeks in 1988, and also a NBC TV movie-of-the-week." That is a very celar claim ot notability. I don't see how anyone can think this is an A7 speedy delete. On that basis alone I would be incined to a keep at an AfD, assuminmg that this claim was sourced. But even if some editors might reasonably opt for deletion at an afd, this isn't the kind of "clear-cut" case that speedy deletion is intended for. Overturn deletion. DES ^(talk) 04:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would not undelete this, as the article was clearly promotional in tone, but it may well be possible to write an article on the book (whicih has received significant non-trivial coverage) and a redirect to there would be unproblematic. There seems to be no claim to notability other than the single book. Guy (Help!) 10:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Undelete as an invalid speedy We should follow process. (anyway, promotional tone is not an accepted reason for speedy.) The book was on the best seller's list, so writing it is unquestionably an assertion of significance (whether or not it may be sufficient) and does not qualify for Speedy. Doing it wong 4 times does not make it right. DGG 13:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Undelete - claim to notability is established; while there might be other reasons to delete it, this should had been AfD. Though a minor writer, the notability still exists. --Thespian 14:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Spyware_Terminator

Rewriting the entire article based on other existing articles

Spyware Terminator's page was deleted for reasons of "blatant advertising". Upon comparing what was on the page previously, the information contained was no different from the information contained in Ad-Aware, Spybot, Spysweeper, or Windows Defender. I also rewrote the page following the layout and information of Ad-Aware and that was also deleted.

I do not mind rewriting the page from scratch, and working with people to make it look less like an advertisement, assuming it ever did look one. Cableguytk 04:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The last version of the article, in full, was: Spyware Terminator is a freeware software program from Crawler,LLC used to help remove various kinds of Spyware and Malware from Windows based computers. Spyware Terminator incorporates realtime protection, basic HIPS protection, and Clam AV integration to help protect computers from these threats. This was tagged with db-spam, but this is not sapm, it is no more spammy than most stub-class articels on software. The deletion log said "tagged as spam, deleted as nn software/freeware." But "non-notable software" is not a speedy deletetion reason, nor does WP:CSD#A7 apply to software of any sort, nor should it iMO. Overturn and list on AfD to determine by consensus discussion if this should be included or not. It may not be notable, but I can't tell, and that is not a judgement properly made by one admin. Yes admins are trusted, but one pair of eye is simply not enough.DES ^(talk) 04:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- See comments below. DES ^(talk) 05:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Already afd'd here. Nomination amounts to WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. Endorse and keep salted. —Cryptic 04:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry but I am not clear on where this discussion started or what. That AFD says I cant modify it, so what am I supposed to do? I was not aware of this AFD nomination previously. So I would like to start a 3rd nomination so that I may voice my opinion. Cableguytk 04:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Since this had previously been deleted via an AfD deletion discussion (twice in fact) it would have been helpful had the speedy reason been given as G4 (recreation of deleted content) with a link to the prior AfD (or in this case, AfDs). The AfDs cited two primary reasons for deletion: lack of notability, and advertising. IMO the latest version had already dealt with the advertising issue. If any editor wants there to be an article on this procuct, that editor should, IMO, 1) create a draft that clearly establishes notability by including references to non-trivial mentions in multiple independant reliable sources. 2) When and if such a draft is complete, bring it here for review. if it establishes notability, then and only then the article should be unsalted and the new version moved into article space. DES ^(talk) 05:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Info: Distinguish page Spyware Terminator from page Spyware terminator. Anthony Appleyard 05:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have made a draft and published it several times but it keeps being deleted. I believe it addresses the advertisement-look and the lack of resources.

Here is my draft which was so nicely deleted:

The text of the article can now be found at User:Cableguytk Spartaz ^Humbug! 05:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This layout: 1) does not appear to be advertising to me 2) follows a mesh of the layouts at Ad-Aware, Spybot, and Windows Defender (mostly focusing on Spybot) 3) has a good amount of sources. Unfortunately due to the age of this product (around 1.5yrs), the lack of a hosuehold name like "Ad-Aware", and continuous negative campaigns against the product, including here on Wikipedia, not many other sources are available outside of the ones provided.

Please review the entry and let me know your opinions. Cableguytk 05:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've g4d this again and salted the properly-capitalized title as well. The new and improved independent reliable sources cited in this version were spywareterminator.com-domain links (11 of them!), a single reprinted press release, and links to download sites, just like those that were in the version deleted at afd. How many times do we go through this before folks stop assuming good faith? —Cryptic 06:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, the program is ONLY 1.5 years old. Combine that with the fact that it is not a household name, it is mistaken for many bad products (Spyware-Terminator 4.0), it was briefly listed on SpywareWarrior.com, and it is developed by a company which had PREVIOUS ties with an adware company which eventually changed its business practices. There is NOT much for me to work with here. How many different download sites can I link before it becomes too redundant? This isn't Ad-Aware or SpyBot where the product has been around for 10 years for people to test and award it. Cableguytk 06:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide multiple independant third party coverage to allow us to establish notabiliuty and verify information. Stress on the words multiple and independant. Spartaz ^Humbug! 06:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If there is really "NOT much ... to work with here" that rather sugests a lack of notability. Please understand that the question isn't whether this software in some sense "deserves" an article because it is good software, or because it has had bad breaks. Nor is wikipedia a place to publicze unknown software. We have articles only about notable subjects, and that generally means a significant amount of attention has been paid to the subject by someone other than its creator, If there has not been such attention, the article will have to wait until there is. If there has been, then an article needs to document it. DES ^(talk) 06:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

the "11" links to the Spyware Terminator domain were to cover me should anyone claim that any of it was independent research, since Im always beig flagged for this kind of stuff. I linked to Download.com (which Ad-Aware does), I linked to a couple domains which have awarded the program (Softpedia.com, and Xmaesto.com), and I linked a press release which was about Spyware Terminator's associated former parent company changes in business practices. Other than that, there really isnt much out there worth linking, unless you want me to link up to the plethora of download sites similar to Download.com and Softpedia.com that have reviewed and listed the program. In all, I have links to 4 different independent sources (websearch.com, softpedia, xmaesto, and download.com) By comparison:

Ad-Aware - 2 different independent links (2 links to google, 1 to download.com)
SpyBot - 0 different independent links
Windows Defender - 3 different independent link
Spyware Doctor - 5 different independent sources

Cableguytk 06:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:INN, if you find articles which don't meet wikipedia requirements like verifiability please consider (a) fixing them or (b) nominating them for deletion if unfixable, but whatever you do don't see it as a green light for creating more of the same. --pgk 06:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Deletion of those articles is not my objective, nor should it be. The only reason why the Spyware Terminator article is deleted and not those articles is because there are more people out there who want to run negative campaigns against the software, and less who want to for those listed programs. So there is more likely to be a person on Wikipedia who wants to do whatever they can to take down Spyware Terminator. Im sorry, but Im not going to flag those articles for being bad...I see them as being legitimate articles worthy of being listed, and if the admins see otherwise, let them handle it. My objective is to get the Spyware Terminator article relisted, and if the admins do not see a problem with those articles listed above UNLESS a user raises issue, then the Spyware Terminator article should not be discriminated against. Cableguytk 06:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Admins are volunteers, admins do not spend all their time looking at every article and vetting it, so yes unless someone flags an issue with an article it may go unnoticed for a long time. That's the way it works. Admins are also not obliged to bring every article up to scratch just because someone points it out to them. Sorry you see this as some sort of grand conspiracy, it isn't and declaring it as such is unlikely to garner any sympathy. As for discrimination, yep wikipedia discriminates against all sorts of content based on our basic standards of verifiability, no original research etc. etc. If you want somewhere which is merely a "fair" free for all where any crap goes, wikipedia is not the place there are plenty of free web hosts out there. --pgk 08:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Obvious endorse deletion. Article was canonical spam, author is pretty obviously promoting his own interests here. Nothing to see, move along please. Guy (Help!) 10:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion - As I read the draft article, I got the distinct feeling I was reading the software's box, complete with the systems requirements label. Sorry, but not only was the article not encyclopedic, there was nothing in the article that convinced me that this particular program was notable enough to be listed in an encyclopedia. (And just for the record, between the two versions of the title, this article has been deleted a total of 9 times...enough already!) AKRadecki^Speaketh 14:11, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
JzG: so you would rather me go around and nominate for deletion every article like Ad-Aware, SpyBot...anyone that I found to be a junky article, thus causing the future removal of articles which no one maintains, yet there is no desire to list an article which may be bad in some peoples eyes but has a good following of people who are willing to maintain it to make it look good? I just dont see how this helps Wikipedia.

Akradecki:Why dont you go check Ad-Aware or Spybot or Windows Defender while you are at it and tell me what you think of those articles?
Seeing as how the admins dont mind reading those other articles during this deletion review for comparison, why arent those up for deletion? Oh right, because no non-admin has voted them for deletion review.
As I have been indicating, just put the article back up and, as you see that I am willing to maintain the article, i will clean it up to the point where it doesnt look like ad advertisement. There is not much that can be done with the artcile if it is not available to me or anyone else. Oh yeah, I can attempt to edit it offline, but the incremental update history which Wikipedia provides helps admins see where changes have been made and where suggestions can be made.
If the Ad-Aware and Spybot articles were to get deletion review tags for spam/advertisements, editors would be able to edit the articles to make those changes before the article was to be deleted. That is how it worked with Softpedia and WIP (AM), both of which I am/was an active editor with. People had a problem, i edited the articles and resolved the problem. Cableguytk 14:34, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse deletion fails to meet our standards, nominators insistance that it should be here because WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS whilst not willing to nominate that other stuff for deletion suggests they just want to use wikipedia as a free webhost, something it is not --pgk 14:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jessica Michalik

This was closed as a delete on AfD despite only about one third of responders arguing for this option, based apparently only on the opinion of the closing admin. The excuse appears to have been on the grounds of WP:BLP, despite the fact that a) the person concerned is dead and b) if there any grounds that would affect living relatives, neither the closer nor anyone else has suggested what those might be. This was completely out of process. (Edit: Tony has since claimed on IRC that he interpreted this AfD as needing "consensus to keep", evidently due to the odd BLP argument. I've never seen a case like this.) Rebecca 02:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Response of AfD closer: this was not a vote. There were very few editors in favor of keeping the article in its original form. Many wanted a merge. Others pointed out that the case was covered well in Big Day Out. There are living relatives and so BLP policy applies in the sense that we should cover the event, not the person (who in this case is notable only in death). Accordingly, my considered close was as follows:
The event is encyclopedic, and is handled in an encyclopedic manner in Big Day Out. The person is not encyclopedic and since there are living relatives there are biographies of living persons (BLP) issues. In short, the policy tells us the biographies of people known only for one event needn't be written about in their own right.

Uncle G's suggestion of a redirect to Big Day Out is well taken. This may be created.
I created the redirect after an administrator enacted the deletion. --Tony Sidaway 02:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This ignored the well-considered arguments of a number of people familiar with this incident and the media coverage of it, who pointed out repeatedly that the ramifications of this went far beyond the Big Day Out, and had quite widespread effect. This, however, was ignored in favour of your personal desire to delete the article. Rebecca 03:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn.I looked at the AFD, I looked at the article, and many things were done as a result of her death. I didn't see a BLP violation at all (maybe the inclusion of the middle name, but that one word shouldn't be the cause for a deletion). Also, a major organization, the Australasian Performing Right Association, still runs a foundation in her name, then the issues surrounding her death had more ramifications than just a new set of barricades. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 03:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- A few things I found out. First, a government inquest occurred due to the death. Three government agencies in Australia had inquests into her death. Also, there was a safety code adopted for Australia concerts. As for the Foundation, it has been giving grants to artists "Red Sun Band" and Sarah Kelly. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 04:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SNOW: I suggest that we overturn this now. This information did not come out in the deletion discussion, and Rebecca informs me that the Australian editors came to the debate late. --Tony Sidaway 04:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn citing BLP in the deletion reason is, quite frankly, ridiculous. 'Living relatives involved'? I rather doubt that a Wikipedia article is at the top of their list of emotional priorities - let's not give ourselves too much credit. The facts are (a) the deletion should not have been on these grounds, (b) the subject of the article is notable in her own right, the ramifications of her death were far-reaching and diverse, (c) the article should not have been given the clear by a non-Australian at all. As I said in the AfD - there's no way for the non-Australian to understand how this person's death affected the country. Not the 2001 Big Day Out. A girl dying, a real person, makes it personal. It's a small country, these things don't happen very often. Again, the article should not have been deleted, and certainly not for the reasons cited. Riana (talk) 03:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn. This deserved a full debate; those advocating keep had strong arguments, and these supposed BLP concerns seem too shaky for me to deserve an out-of-process rougey deletion. Krimpet 03:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The deletion was fully and completely in process. It isn't a vote, and I sought the line of consensus and fully explained my policy reasons. --Tony Sidaway 04:16, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn. Completely out of process. There was no consensus to delete here, this was, in effect, as speedy deletion with teh so-called "closer" tagging an an admin deleting. BLB doe not apply to dead people, and even if it did, there is not question as the consensus on notability among those who joined the AfD discussion. DES ^(talk) 04:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn Multiple government inquests clearly shows an impact that can be considered notable and Riana adequately explains why BLP is not an overriding issue here. --MichaelLinnear 04:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, first off the ArbCom appears to be utterly rejecting the claim that the "L" in "BLP" stands for "living" ([1]). Second, any article on a biography can be summarily deleted by an administrator using the "WP:BLP" as a reason [2]. Even so, overturn per Rebecca. Sjakkalle (Check!) 07:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn. The outcome was reasonable as it is a bio about an otherwise unnotable person due to circumstances of her death. However, new information has been provided by Zscout370 that demonstrates the significance of her death. As I said on the Afd, I think it should be renamed to avoid the details of her life being included; something like Big Day Out crowd control controversy. John Vandenberg 10:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse redirection to Big Day Out. Tabloidish, hurtful to the family, why would we keep this? Guy (Help!) 10:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- How on earth is it either a) tabloidish, or b) hurtful to the family? It simply documents the widespread ramifications of one person's death, as with many other similar articles on the project. If it were actually hurtful to the family (or even could be), I'd be arguing to delete in a second, but there's no evidence whatsoever of that here. Rebecca 11:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn as it appears in Big Day Out, Fred Durst is given more play than Michalik. There is actually a fair bit of coverage of her death as an individual event, and resulting changes, and even if the redirect is merited, it should have brought the full article over to Big Day Out, along with all the citations. However, I think that this is correctly its own article, to be mentioned from Big Day Out, instead.

Velvet D’Amour

Was previously deleted as article was poorly written and contained no sources; today in process of rewriting and adding sources found article deleted within 5 minutes of post. Would like new article vetted for AfD at least before auto-delete. Would also like to know if there is some existing protocol for adding models and actresses to Wiki, as well as how to ensure that public access photographs don't keep being deleted due to not knowing the correct protocol for copyrighting the images via Wiki tags? AntiVanity 01:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse deletion, valid A7, unless being in a non-notable movie is an assertion of notability. --Core desat 03:11, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn "known via the worldwide media coverage she received after her appearance in Jean-Paul Gaultier's 2007 Spring/Summer prèt-â-porter collection shown in Paris in October 2006." is a claim of notability. So is "D'Amour's appearance on a catwalk for a designer who does not currently produce plus-size clothing was widely categorized as a farcial..." (emphasis added). So is "D'Amour also featured in the title role of Avida, the 2006 French film directed by Gustave de Kervern and Benoît Delépine, which was selected for the 2006 Cannes and 2007 Tribeca Film Festivals." It may be that none of these claims would be judged suffficient for inclusion at an AfD, but that is a judgement call. Any plausible claim of notability, whether sourced or not, and whether it is enoug to clearly pass WP:BIO or not, is enough that an A7 speedy should not be used, but an AfD or a Prod, which allows the question of notability to be debated and settled by consensus. DES ^(talk) 04:18, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion. Even if we accept the unsupported hyperbole asserting notability, the article was an unambiguous G11 as spam. Guy (Help!) 10:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn Even if the previous article was deleted as spam, it wasn't salted because there is the opportunity to create a real page about this model/actress (who absolutely passes notability; a quick Google search shows a fair bit of coverage from newspapers). Deleting an article in under 5m simply because the article was deleted before seems very 'eye for an eye' to me; this admin could easily have given the re-creator a half hour to at least get her information organized. Expecting articles to spring forth from editors fully formed or risk deletion seems contrary the collaborative nature of Wikipedia. --Thespian 14:04, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 97: / Line 97: @@
 If the Ad-Aware and Spybot articles were to get deletion review tags for spam/advertisements, editors would be able to edit the articles to make those changes before the article was to be deleted.
 That is how it worked with [[Softpedia]] and [[WIP (AM)]], both of which I am/was an active editor with.  People had a problem, i edited the articles and resolved the problem. [[User:Cableguytk|Cableguytk]] 14:34, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
+* '''Endorse deletion''' fails to meet our standards, nominators insistance that it should be here because [[WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS]] whilst not willing to nominate that other stuff for deletion suggests they just want to use wikipedia as a free webhost, something it [[WP:NOT|is not]] --[[User_talk:Pgk|pgk]] 14:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 ====[[:Jessica Michalik]]====