Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

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Current disputes

Talk:2014 Russian Grand Prix

– New discussion.

Filed by Prisonermonkeys on 08:14, 1 November 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:2014 Russian Grand Prix (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Prisonermonkeys (talk · contribs)
• Haken arizona (talk · contribs)
• Jirka.h23 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The issue concerns the inclusion of crowd attendance figures for the race. Haken arizona believes that the attendance figures should be included. I, on the other hand, have objected on the grounds that the sources he has provided have been flawed - they variously fail WP:SPS, WP:RS and WP:VERIFIABLE, have proven to be imprecise and contradictory, especially for a piece of information that is ultimately of little to no importance in the article. Despite repeated attempts to point this out, Haken arizona has refused to find alternate sources. The article has recently been locked following an edit war, but the moment the lock was lifted, Haken arizona immediately started editing his preferred content into the article, and the debate on the talk page has started getting personal.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have tried explaining what makes a source useable and what a better source would look like. I have demonstrated this to other users, who I think have been persuaded by my argument.

How do you think we can help?

Demonstrate the importance of SPS, RS, VERIFIABLE and the need for accuracy to Haken arizona. Also establish the notability of individual pieces of information to the article, and highlight the need for precision in sources and articles and show why close enough is not good enough.

Summary of dispute by Haken arizona

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Tass Russia is recognized news agency. It is their event and they will have the correct data on event's success. They report 65,000 spectators attended the event, indicating fully sold out event. This is important to add to the page. It indicates how successful was the event. It improves the quality of encyclopedia, in future people will be able to see if the event did good or did it flop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haken arizona (talk • contribs) 16:44, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Jirka.h23

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:2014 Russian Grand Prix discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

A list of the sources used, and the problems with them:

• The first, from ABC.net.au referred to crowd figures on the Saturday of the event. However, the field in the infobox specifically refers to the attendance on the Sunday.
• The second and third sources, from CNN and a Russian news service, gave the crowd figures as 55,000 and 65,000.
  • The CNN article also referred to "near to capacity", but gave no indication of how near to capacity "near capacity" is.
• The latest source, introduced today, is one I have never heard of. I'm a long-time editor of Formula 1 articles, and I have never seen it used, and I cannot verify it.

I have repeatedly explained both these problems and how to overcome them on the article talk page, but to no avail. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 08:22, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Tass Russia is recognized news agency. It is their event and they will have the correct data on event's success. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haken arizona (talk • contribs) 16:46, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Uninvolved editor's note.First a technical announcement. Prisonermonkeys has been blocked from editing for 72 hours for edit-warring on this subject. Haken arizona has been blocked for the same offense as well for 48 hours. So neither of them is going to be able to contribute to this discussion within the next 48 hours. Prisonermonkeys will not be able to contribute for another 24 hours after that.

On the matter, In my humble opinion I think it would be helpful if we had the links to the various sources that have been used to justify the information here, so that one can explore them and compare them. I must admit that, having thought about it long and hard now, I too think that PM's concerns regarding some of the sources seem to be justified. Tvx1 (talk) 17:31, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Volunteer's Note: Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. Though I am a regular volunteer here (and the current Coordinator), I am neither "taking" this case nor opening it for discussion at this time, but wanted to make some administrative comments. I've taken the liberty of adding Tvx1 as a party and moving his initial comments to a summary section, above, to clarify that he's not here as a DRN volunteer. As of this writing two editors are still blocked. If they resume editing after their blocks expire, this case will be ready for a volunteer to open it. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:29, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

@TransporterMan; Drop in comment from Interwiki Wikiprojects. The two editors share the principle among many Grand Prix followers of not backing down one inch in disputes. If the two editors agree to suspend edit dispute on the article page and agree to follow Dispute Resolution process here then I have read both the German version and the Russian version of the page and might be able to moderate. @TransporterMan, It may be worth your posting a note to the two editors that they have opened a Dispute section here and that normally they are assumed to await the results of the resolution process before making further edits on the article itself. FelixRosch (talk) 15:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Uninvolved editor's note. Rather than someone needing to sift through yards of article and talk page drama, a Volunteer could perhaps resolve this by visiting this latest version of the article and deciding whether this updated info about attendance in the intro is encyclopedic, and whether its two references actually support it. Moriori (talk) 00:11, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

After reviewing the edit, I personally feel that the information is encyclopedic and that it is properly supported by the reference. (TASS is a major Russian news agency, so I think it would be safe to say that it's a reliable source.) --Biblioworm 00:22, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

As I have outlined on my talk page, the attendance figures should not be included in the article lead. They were never an issue during the race weekend, and including them in the lead overstates their importance. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 18:43, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Quite. While I have no problem with the figures being the article providing people are satisfied as to their reliability, they certainly do not belong in the lead paragraph. Infobox and/or article text, background info or somesuch. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:11, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I still have reservations about the TASS source. It says "over 65,000", and while it might be reliable, it's way too vague for my liking. Everything else is accurately recorded; we say that Hamilton's pole time was 1:38.513, not 1:38.5 and just round it off. So when the TASS source says "over 65,000", how far over 65,000 are we talking about? And it's contradicted by the CNN source, which says a "near capacity crowd of 55,000". Prisonermonkeys (talk) 21:39, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

You make some good points, @Prisonermonkeys. I'd say that CNN and TASS can both be trusted, but if trusted sources conflict, it's a little difficult to figure out which one to trust. We could always say something along the lines of "Attendance estimates range from 55,000 to over 65,000 people", but that is probably a bit too vague to be helpful. --Biblioworm 21:54, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

That is probably too vague, @Biblioworm. We have always aimed for precision in the articles, and giving a range of 15,000 is far too broad for inclusion. Attendance data might be nice if it is available, but it is not so important that we can or should forget our standards in order to include it. If it is worth including, it is worth being precise about. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 23:29, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

If two reliable sources conflict, then it's very difficult to say which one is correct. I'd be a bit more inclined to trust TASS over CNN, because TASS is native to the nation of the race and probably provided more detailed coverage. Because of the contradiction within sources, however, I'm beginning to lean towards omitting the attendance figures from the article. I'd would like to hear more from @Haken arizona concerning these contradictions, though. --Biblioworm 02:50, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Attendance figures are also being inconsistently applied—the 2014 United States Grand Prix article says over 230,000 people attended, but as the venue cannot hold that many people, it's evidently the sum across the three days. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 03:08, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

@TransporterMan: Drop-in comment from InterWiki Wikiprojects. As a neutral comment from both the Russian version and the German version of this page, neither one mentions the attendance stats as relevant to those language versions of this article. It also appears that only one of the dispute editors is participating here even though both have edit rights restored. If both editors agree to continue the discussion then both need to be heard from soon. @Haken Arizona needs to participate for this discussion to re-commence. If @TransporterMan could ping both editors to see if they wish to continue the resolution process then that's fine. Otherwise, no response in 24hrs from both of the disputing editors seems to indicate this matter is no longer being pursued and it is a candidate for being closed as stale. FelixRosch (talk) 17:04, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

@FelixRosch: I'm here and I want to participate further, but I feel that there is little more that I can contribute without further input from @Haken arizona. If he does not, we could possibly resolve the dispute by removing the attendance data on the grounds that the TASS source is a) vague and b) possibly contradicted by the CNN source, and that attendance data is being inconsistently applied both across English-language articles and across multiple Wikis. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 21:35, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

@Prisonermonkeys; Since I am neutral on this question at this time, I can confirm my comment from earlier today. There is no reason that you could not contact @TransporterMan and ask him for his view and possibly for him to ping @Haken arizona. If there is no response in 24hrs from @Haken then this matter could be assessed as stale and it could be closed by @TransporterMan. If @Haken wishes to continue then he can reply here, and I have read both the Russian version and the German version of this page and can still offer a neutral assessment. FelixRosch TALK 21:52, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I just messaged @Haken arizona on his talk page and asked him to participate here. @FelixRosch: While I do think that we should close this as stale if Haken does not reply, I don't 24 hours is enough time. Perhaps we should wait until the end of the weekend? --Biblioworm 22:09, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

@Biblioworm; Yes, the end of the week-end or Monday morning sounds about right. If @Haken arizona wishes to continue he may reply, otherwise you are justified to assess the matter as stale and you can close it on the time frame you indicate. FelixRosch TALK 22:17, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

@Haken arizona is here. Attendance data is important, it shows how well the event did in comparison with events in other years. It is up to 3rd party to decide this because I was not able to resolve the issue with Prisonermonkeys.

@Haken arizona: there are still major issues with the sources provided, which you have never addressed. For one, the TASS article says that "over 65,000 people" attended.

Firstly, if more than 65,000 people attended, how many more attended?

Secondly, why are the attendance figures so important to the article that we should willingly continue including them even though the source is so vague and sub-standard?

More importantly, the CNN source you originally gave said the event had a "near capacity crowd of 55,000". Now, we have TASS saying "over 65,000 people". If TASS and CNN are equally reliable and equally reputable, how do you explain the difference of over 10,000 people between the two? And again, how and why is the inclusion of the attendance figure so important that we should willingly ignore such a massive contradiction? That alone is enough to justify its removal from the article.

Finally, why are you inconsistently applying this information? You updated the 2014 United States Grand Prix to show an attendance figure of over 237,000 people, but the circuit cannot hold that many at once—the figure clearly shows the aggregate attendance over three days. But in the Russian GP article, you only have the attendance for the race. So why the inconsistency, and why is the figure so important that we can willingly ignore it? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 11:28, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

@Haken arizona and Prisonermonkeys; Both editors appear ready to defend their positions here. If both of you are agreed to accepting to follow strict WP:Lede and WP:MoS policy and guidelines then I am able to offer a neutral assessment of this discussion for resolution. Both editors would need to make a short comment to affirm this and the mediation can start. Otherwise the matter can be assessed as stale and suitable for being closed on this basis after 24 hours if both editors are not present. FelixRosch TALK 15:28, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I am happy to do that. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 19:01, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

@Prisonermonkeys: My first edit was correct one, the TASS source. But you said can't be 65,000 because venue holds only 55,000. Later you corrected yourself stating there are 55,000 seats and 10,000 in general standing area so that makes it 65,000. Then you went with your edit war about the number, then I went with CNN source which was just journalist guess. Then you went with your edit war again. Bottom line is you don't want any attendance data there and refuse to reason. You got blocked for 72hrs and me only for 48hrs, which means moderators found you more guilty than me. Attendance data can be vague like weather can be. Because it is impossible to account for every person at the event so the number is usually rounded off. USA GP attendance data is sourced directly from the event organizer. It is their reputation on the line and not Wikipedia's. I post what they report. User can click on the source and get more detail about the attendance where they can read if it is for sunday or for whole weekend. You are free to go to Holocaust page and argue 6 million figure, why is the number vague there?

@FelixRosch: Now you heard both arguments.

I have said it before and I will say it again: I am not opposed to the inclusion of attendance figures on principle. I am opposed to the inclusion of attendance figures—as I would be with any addition to any article—when they use sources that are so clearly flawed. They are not so important to the reader's understanding of the article that we must include them, even if it means using a faulty source. I feel that if we find ourselves in such a situation, then it is better to leave them out altogether.

To my mind, the issues that need to be resolved here are:

1) The importance of attendance figures to these articles as a whole.

2) The obvious issues with the sources that have been presented in this specific instance.

And I would suggest that you give up on the "go and argue the Holocaust death toll figure" argument. It's inappropriate to say the least. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 21:33, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Current summary of dispute

(this summary was replaced and updated below by the 12 Nov update section)

@Haken arizona has indicated an interest in posting a one or two sentence edit on the race attendance statistics in the main body of the article, and also wishes to post a one sentence summary of it into the Lead section. @Prisonermonkeys appears to wish to limit this edit to a single sentence, if that, within the main body of the article and not include a summary of it in the Lead or Infobox section unless verification of reliable sources is satisfied. FelixRosch (TALK) 21:55, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

To both editors; @Prisonermonkeys and @Haken ariona. Both editors have been asked to agree to follow strict WP:Lede and WP:MoS policy, which @Prisonermonkeys has done, and I ask for @Haken to affirm this also. I ask for both of you to sign all your edits here with 4 tilde as endorsing your further statements. If the above is a fair summary of your positions then @Haken ought to provide the text he wishes to put into the main body of the article in quote marks within his reply here below exactly as he wishes it to appear in the article along with cites in parenthesis (indicate also exactly which section in the main body of the article you want to place it). @Prisonermonkeys and @Haken; If this summary in not what you are indicating then this is the time to state your amendations/abridgements. Tomorrow is veterans day and everyone gets until Wednesday morning to reply (over 24 hrs), and that is when I shall reply to both posts. Otherwise this matter may be seen as stale and may be closed if left without a response from each editor by Wednesday at 12 Noon. FelixRosch (TALK) 21:55, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm afraid I do not agree with the above. My position is that if attendance figures are to be included, then they should only appear in the infobox, provided that they are accurate, reliably sourced, and in a format consistent with other, similar articles; the only time they should appear in the body of the article is if it can be demonstrated through multiple, reliable sources that the attendance figures for that race were a major issue.

Accuracy is the key here. "Over 65,000 people" is too generalised for my liking. It's like saying Hamilton's pole time was 1:38.5 instead of 1:38.513. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 23:18, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

@Prisonermonkeys There is a proof you just refuse to agree no mater what kind of argument is put forward. You can't compare race car time that is measured by sophisticated computers to be precise within .00001 of a second and attendance figures. When masses of people are counted, the number is usually general in nature and rounded off. I don't care if there is a number of attendance, I am ok even if it is quoted as being up to capacity, sold out, very good turn out. This indicate if the event was commercially successful or not. This is very important especially in the USA. Promoters can charge more money from advertisement if the event gets attended well. @FelixRosch I made my argument, I posted my statement, I don't know what else to say. Haken arizona (talk) 16:07, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

It is not an indicator that the event was commercially successful. In order for the event to be a commercial success, it has to make a profit. You would need to prove that, again with a reliable and verifiable source. And the commercial success or failure of the event is not within the scope of the article.

Also, it's not difficult to count spectators. They need their tickets to get in, and those tickets can be counted as they enter the venue. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 19:55, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Neutral editor here. Having never considered the subject before, it is surprising how 'unofficial' attendance records are in racing. The source that struck the biggest chord was this one: according to a USAToday article, Nascar stopped giving 'official' attendance altogether in 2013.[1] Tracks can give "crowd estimates" on their own prerogative. This means that for current Nascar events there can be no official counts, only track estimates. Would it be a fair compromise to state that attendance would only be included on those races for which Nascar gave an 'official' attendance number?EBY (talk) 20:51, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I would say yes, but NASCAR articles aren't within the scope of the Formula 1 WikiProject. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 21:30, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Update of summary 12 Nov 2014

To @Haken arizona and @Prisonermonkeys; Both editors have answered and signed their comments to continue the resolution process. @Haken arizon proposes to add the following edit to record the attendance figures as follows:

According to CNN and TASS, the attendance stood at near capacity with more than 55,000 spectators on the third and the main day of the event.[2][3] (updated to single sentence proposed edit on 13 Nov 2014)

In response to this edit, @Prisonermonkeys requires a second citation in order to verify the single source claiming that a second source previously presented from CNN cited slightly different attendance stats. @Haken arizona, since the two sources give comparable though not identical attendance stats, would you be willing to move towards consensus by (i) adding the CNN citation to your edit and (ii) stating that there were "more than 55,000 spectators", the lower CNN number, without further amplification. @Prisonermonkeys; It seems more on point to divide this dispute into two phases and first decide if the material proposed for the main body of the article can be defended before deciding if it can go into the Infobox. WP:Lede and Infobox Wikipedia policy is that they can only summarize material which is in the main body of the article, and therefor the issue of this proposed edit in the main body of the article ought to be settled first one way or the other. If both editors could respond during the next 24hrs and both sign your response then the resolution process can continue. Otherwise the matter can be seen as stale and may be closed on this basis if both editors do not respond in the next 24hrs. FelixRosch (TALK) 15:47, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

It's still not specific enough for me. If this is going to be included at all, then I feel that it needs to be accurate. As it is, it is simply too vague. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 18:20, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

@Prisonmonkeys; While waiting for @Haken response could you elaborate just a little. That is, if @Haken has two references and decides he wants to include attendance stats in the main body of the article ("more than 55,000 spectators"), then you still want something in addition to this? If you have something specific in mind or an example you can cite of something similar which would be acceptable to you, then this may aid @Haken in his evaluation. FelixRosch (TALK) 20:07, 12 November 2014 (UTC) @FelixRosch I am sure Vladimir Putin did not buy a ticket to attend his own Grand Prix, that would be absurd, he attended, so if 65,000 tickets were sold, there are VIP people who did not have to buy the ticket and have attended the event, this officialy makes it factual to say that "more than" 65,000 people attended the event. There are 5 or 6 major networks that reported the event as "sold out". All neutral editors tend to side with me. prisonermonkeys is simply being way out of line and unreasonable. Haken arizona (talk) 19:05, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Coordinator's note about DRN auto-closing: Everyone should note that the normal life span for a DRN case is two weeks and that span will end for this case at 08:14, 15 November 2014 (UTC). Once that time passes, this case will be automatically archived by our bot (and closed by implication) if there is not at least one edit to it every 24 hours. The volunteers working on the case have the right to extend its life by changing the date in the DoNotArchiveUntil comment at the top of the case to a later date, but generally should not do so unless they feel that there is a good chance of successful resolution in a reasonable period of time. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 22:27, 12 November 2014 (UTC) (current DRN coordinator)

Confirming notice from @TransporterMan for bot archive in 48hrs. There has been no update from one editor since 11 November. Bot is on autopilot to archive in 48hrs unless both editors are participating. FelixRosch (TALK) 15:38, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I am participating, I just laid my argument, what else can I do. Moderator should decide quickly. Haken arizona (talk) 19:05, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

FelixRosch, I feel that the attendance figures are not specific enough. The TASS article says "over 65,000" people attended. So my question is how many more? If it was, say, 65,711 people, then the article should say 65,711 (with a reliable, verifiable source, of course). A rounded figure simply isn't good enough, and if we look at articles like 2014 United States Grand Prix, we know that it's possible to get those specific numbers. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 19:39, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

@Prisonmonkeys and @Haken arizona; This proposed edit is coming down to this single sentence if I understand both of your positions concerning the double cited one sentence edit for the main body of the article:

According to CNN and TASS, the attendance stood at near capacity with more than 55,000 spectators on the third and the main day of the event.[4][5]

@Haken needs to affirm if this is the form of the edit which he wishes to defend here at this time. Simply state "yes" or "no" if this is the edit you are defending at this time. @Prisonermonkeys; Your example from 2014 US Grand Prix raises a second issue which may distract us here since that page introduces material into the Infobox which is not a summary of material in the main body of the article as required by WP:MoS for WP:Lede and Infobox policy and guidelines. Also, one of the two cites given there does not even give the attendance figures. The focus here needs to be on point, namely, this one sentence version of the proposed edit with two citations to support. It seems that @Haken only wishes to make the point that the attendance stats were near capacity though its up to him to clarify exactly what his intentions are in his edit. Both editors should need to try to respond to this version within 24 hours since bot is on autopilot to close here in 48 hours unless there are daily 24 hour responses. FelixRosch (TALK) 20:22, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Medupi Power Station

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by 196.36.203.161 on 06:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Medupi Power Station (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Edward321 (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Hi Edward321 is constantly removing paragraphs from the Medupi Power Station Page, I have explained to him that from a South African readers perspective that the two paragraphs inserted namely construction contracts and technology is important to us as this project is of particular economic and political importance due to their scale. I have tried to engage him on his talk page and undo the removal, but the next day he removes them again with no explanation. Can you assist? Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have back off on several occasions, and sent messages to him asking him to explain but there has been none forthcoming. How do you think we can help? Im not sure, If someone can tell me what Im doing wrong or message Edward321 and talk to him from your side? Summary of dispute by Edward321 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Medupi Power Station discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:James S.C._Chao

– New discussion.

Filed by Nononsenseplease on 06:15, 14 November 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:James S.C. Chao (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Nononsenseplease (talk · contribs)
• Byates5637 (talk · contribs)
• Curtster3 (initially) (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Hi. There's an ongoing problem with Byates5637 regarding the reiterated deletion of reliably-sourced news ([6]) from the James S.C. Chao article.

The entry being deleted has to do with news reported a few days ago by The Nation that one of the cargo ships operated by Chao's privately-held shipping firm has been detained in Colombia. This verified incident, however, is both notable and relevant. Notable because they involve 40 kilos of cocaine (worth $7 million wholesale) and the impoundment of a Panamax-size cargo ship, as well as an ongoing investigation by the Colombian Navy; and relevant because Chao's shipping firm, Foremost Maritime Corp., was founded by the subject of the article and is still privately held by him and his family.

Byates has switched arguments numerous times during our Talk Page exchanges, but it's telling that he began by asserting that this shouldn't be mentioned because it's been "covered in a small handful of far left opinion sites which border on being tabloids." I doubt most editors consider The Nation (the most detailed source), El Tiempo (the largest paper in Colombia, and hardly "left-wing"), the Baltimore Sun, and the Louisville Courier fringe sites or tabloids.

I should add that I wasn't the only editor to add news of this to the article ([7]). I find his description of these news as something from the "far left" good reason to believe Byates would like to revert addition of these news for reasons of personal/political preference.

Numerous attempts to resolve the dispute in the Talk Page have failed.

Thank you.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I mentioned it at the ANI page, and was instructed to transfer the request here.

How do you think we can help?

I'm not sure- but Byates' dismissal of the sources as "far left sites" (when they're clearly not) says a lot about his/her motives for trying to keep any mention of this incident out. Personal political views shouldn't affect content.

These news are a notable in the subject's career in shipping, made all the more relevant because the shipping firm in question in privately owned by him. It's furthermore reliably-sourced, written in a neutral tone, and very much belongs in the Career section.

Summary of dispute by Byates5637

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Curtster3 (initially)

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:James S.C._Chao discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.