Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sabuktigin/archive1

Sabuktigin

Sabuktigin (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 16 August 2024, 19:40 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.

• Featured article candidates/Sabuktigin/archive1

Nominator(s): Amir Ghandi (talk) 07:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

This is an article about a Turkic slave called Sabuktigin who became the amir of Ghazna (in Afghanistan) and founded the Ghaznavid dynasty. He was recorded to summon snowstorms by throwing dirt on the air and became the image of an archetype by contemporary historians. The article was promoted to GA status yesterday, but since I had prepared it with the intent of FAC I've nominated it right away. Thanks in advance. Amir Ghandi (talk) 07:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Airship

Will certainly comment on this! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 08:04, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• Some images are missing alt text

Added

• Suggest scaling up the map

Can't do that one if I'm using upright

Never mind, fixed

• Don't use fixed px size

Fixed

• File:Coin_of_the_Ghaznavid_amir_Sabuktigin,_citing_the_Samanid_amir_Nuh_II_as_his_overlord._Date_unknown,_minted_at_Ghazna.jpg needs a tag for the original work

Done

• File:Mahmud_of_Ghazni_first_success.jpg: where is that publication date coming from? If the author is unknown, how do we know they died over 70 years ago?

Updated the info; the author was Walter Victor Hutchinson (d. 1950) and the book was published in 1933.

• File:Fighting_between_Mahmud_of_Ghazni_and_Abu_'Ali_Simjuri.jpg: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:48, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Updated the link

Ajpolino

Very interesting topic about which I know nothing. Some drive-by comments:

• "a slave market at Nakhshab... There, he was bought by Alp-Tegin" - A small thing, but Bosworth isn't explicit that Alp-Tegin bought Sebuktegin at Nakhshab. The cited source (2008b) says "he was sold as a slave at Nakhshab, and eventually bought by Alp-Tegin", and Bosworth 2020 says "he was brought as a slave to Naksav... and eventually acquired by the Samanid commander Alptegin." I'd suggest changing the wording here slightly to match the sources better.

Reworded it

• "...in 962, as an act of rebellion, he left his position and sought to establish an independent rule in Ghazna," - the cited source (Bosworth 1985) describes Alptigin attempting to secure a preferred successor for the Samanid throne and failing, and therefore fleeing to the edge of Samanid control. Bosworth 2020, summarizes "Alptegin, after a failed coup d'etat, had to withdraw from Bukhara in 961 into northern Afghanistan". Suggest rewording as I don't think the current "as an act of rebellion..." is getting the right meaning across.

Reworded it

I still don't think the new wording "after he fell from grace, he left his position" is getting across the same thing as the source. Ajpolino (talk) 15:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• "He died shortly after in 963" I don't see this in the cited source (Bosworth 2008b)

Added the source supporting his year of death

• "the most plausible way to maintain his authority was expansion" this reads as editorializing. I'd suggest cutting it. I see Bosworth writes "...a dynamic policy of expansion may have seemed... the best way to ensure its survival" but I think Bosworth is clearly speculating here, not stating Sebuktegin's views as a matter of researched fact.

Deleted it

• Bosworth 1985 has a couple sentences on the Sebuktegin's marriage that resulted in Mahmud's birth. Given Mahmud's importance to Sebuktegin's legacy, I'd suggest including the info somewhere in the article.
• "Qaratigin Isfijabi (d. 929), another rebellious Samanid ghulam" the cited article calls Isfijabi a "Samanid general" but doesn't say he was a slave or a rebel.

Added another source that calls him a Turkish slave commander.

• "Using jihad as an excuse" - "as an excuse" reads as editorializing. Perhaps rephrase or expand to clarify?

Reworded it

• "In his Pandnameh, Sabuktigin states that during his childhood, his faith differentiated from his captures, who worshipped a statue, therefore presenting himself as an adherent to the 'right' religion." - Not sure what you're trying to get across here. Suggest cutting this, unless I'm not understanding its importance?

Would this sentence be a good footnote to expand on the jihad against Hindus?

• Bosworth 2020 says "He successfully combated [Kassa and Simjuri], but then sent Maḥmud with a force against Bukhara in order to intimidate Amir Nuḥ" but this latter episode isn't reflected in the article. Any particular reason?

That statement is not mentioned in other sources. Still, I hinted at the deteriorating relationship between Nuh and Sebuktigin in the next section.

Have to run now, will return later for more. Ajpolino (talk) 01:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Second batch of comments, including some small prose things:

• "expanded his rule down to south of present-day Afghanistan and north of Balochistan" - "north of Balochistan" makes it sound like his territory didn't extend into Balochistan itself; the article implies it did.
• "opening the gates of India" the figure of speech "opening the gates" seems a bit informal here for an encyclopedia.
• "As a vassal of the Samanid Empire" (lead) and "he was not bound to any vassalage obligations" (Revolt) - are these in conflict with each other?
• Typos? "conclution", "compromised",
• ...shared by later historians... and lived..." - "lived" seems an odd word choice here. Somewhat informal to say a conclusion "lived" on.
• "later after" redundant.
• "Mu'in ad-Dawla" - can we get a translation for this alternative name?
• I don't think "The conflicts among... resulted in enslavement like this one." is very helpful, and I'd suggest cutting it to help the story flow better.
• "and soon, by the age of eighteen, commanded"
• "Alp-Tegin served as the head of the royal guard of the Samanid dynasty" - are we missing a superior position? The Bosworth 1985 article says he was head of the royal guard under Nasr, then "Under... Nūḥ (343-50/954-61) he enjoyed great favor, becoming governor of Balḵ and then commander-in-chief of the Samanid army in Khorasa."
• "1m dirhams" you can write out "million" as you do later in the article.
• "Fa'iq's men quickly disarrayed Sabuktigin's war elephants, which made him furious." The source says Fa'iq's men killed the elephants. Though I'm not sure this episode is worth including. It's hard to believe Sabuktigin's mood in response to this temporary defeat was recorded as a matter of historical fact.
• "His war elephants crushed many of Abu Ali's soldiers and chief commanders." not sure this is important enough to include, but either way "and chief commanders" is not supported by the cited source.

I'll stop here for now to give some general comments. I think this article is not yet ready for FAC. Just looking at a few sources, I see several places where the text and the source don't quite align – I recommend going through each source with a fine-toothed comb to make sure it's accurately represented in the article. Also the prose is choppy and could use more work to help it flow smoothly and compellingly. This is a fine base, and it seems there are plenty of sources to support a solid article here. I'd suggest enlisting the help of other editors to finish preparing this for its next FAC run -- whether through peer review or by reaching out to editors with FAC experience. For now, I'll have to gently oppose. Best, Ajpolino (talk) 15:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)