Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome

Curia

With the Curia so much in the news, I feel compelled to raise the question of whether the ancient Roman curia should be the primary topic, or whether curia should be the dab. The article unhelpfully points readers to Curia (disambiguation) in the hatnote; it can't even be bothered to suggest Roman Curia as the most likely alternative. If you look at curia's traffic stats for this month, you see a spike that is obviously related to the naming of the new pope. If you look at what links here for curia, quite of lot of incoming links are to plainly Roman Catholic articles, where it never even occurred to the link-creator that it would go anywhere but to a relevant explanation—a useful indication that the ancient Roman curia can't claim to be the primary topic. The dab page itself is less than satisfactory.

Thoughts, suggestions, procedural input? Cynwolfe (talk) 19:31, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Since all of the uses of "curia" are related and arise out of the Roman assembly, my thought is that there should be a general article on the concept of the curia as an assembly, council, or court, from the earliest Roman curiae to the present day. Sections would be presented roughly in chronological order; each section or subsection would discuss, briefly, one use of the term, and provide a redirect to the specific article treating that topic in-depth. I don't think any one use has a clear claim to be the primary topic, although on the basis of priority and historical significance I would have guessed it should direct to articles on the Roman senate house. But as Cynwolfe points out, in modern times the only curia still making news is that of the church.

Just off the top of my head, I think topics to be treated in such an article would begin with the Roman curiae, and the comitia curiata, then move to the use of the term as a name for the senate house, under Curia Hostilia, Curia Cornelia, and Curia Julia; from there one on the use of the term by the Church (should "Roman Curia" and "Curia (Roman Catholic Church)" be merged? If so, the latter title would be less confusing). Then the use of "curia" in medieval times, such as the curia regis of France and England; although perhaps this should precede the Church use as it isn't still in use, while the Church's curia is. One could also consider this dividing the article between political and religious curiae rather than strict chronological order.

One would also have to include redirects to other articles, or the existing disambiguation page, for other uses; women named Curia, herbs belonging to the Genus curia, etc. I know this isn't as helpful as doing the work itself, but even if I were to tackle that I'd like to know what others think first. P Aculeius (talk) 20:02, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Started a rewrite this morning. I think I have the original Roman curiae pretty well covered, but the sections on medieval curiae and the ecclesiastical one could use some more material. I didn't touch the last section, concerning the British mandate in Palestine, since the concept of the curia there is totally beyond my knowledge. But I'm sure there ought to be more than one recent example. Would also like some suggestions on appropriate illustrations to complement the photo of the Curia Julia that I stuck in the middle. What other pictures would illustrate various curiae? P Aculeius (talk) 04:13, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Just wanted to say that silence does not indicate a lack of appreciation for your efforts. Will try to do some peripheral tidying today, unless my Irish husband shares too much of his Guinness. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:41, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

"I name myself the consul for 65 BC!"

This is an obvious anachronism, but the image of this is raised in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Catilinarian_Conspiracy by the following phrase: "Then they would name themselves the consuls for 65 BC". Could this be replaced by something closer to what somebody could actually have said? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.253.182 (talk) 16:22, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Possibly declare themselves consuls. But I don't see why you think it impossible; who voted for Marius' seventh consulship other than himself? (And the implied Latin verb is nominari) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:10, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm guessing the objection is to the designation of the year 65BC instead of whatever AUC, i.e. that since "name themselves" sounds like it's going to introduce their own self-designation, 94.195.253.182 has found it jarring to find 1st c. BC Romans designating their service by our numbering of years. It reads correctly to me, though it would be equally clear if we wrote "for the year" there. Wareh (talk) 00:41, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Wareh, the objection is that the sentence reads as if Catiline were going to say, "I name myself consul for 65 BC!" apparently channeling Goscinny & Uderzo. Personally I'm not sure it should be read that way, but in any case it's easily remedied by rephrasing the sentence. But it's unlikely they would have referred to the year as anything "AUC", because while that designation did exist, most years were known by the names of their consuls (hence the phrase, "eponymous magistrates"). A bit like saying, "in the sixteenth year of the reign of Queen Elizabeth," or "during the first year of George Bush's second term." Actually, the Christian era works the same way; AD 30 is the thirtieth year in the era of Christ (which is why there's no "year 0"). I'm sure they used other methods of referring to years far enough back that nobody could remember who the consuls were without getting out the Almanaca Liber Mundi, but at least widespread use of "AUC" to designate the year is a modern fashion. I believe it would have been 689, but I'd check CIL to be sure. All that needs to be done is to rephrase the sentence so that it's clear that Catiline wasn't about to refer to "65 BC." P Aculeius (talk) 02:51, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Then for the following year If we're going to be itchy about such points, we should be sure that Varro had already invented AUC....(by our article he was 50, so probably.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:49, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Latin War

Your learned opinion is wanted at Talk:Second Latin War regarding the recent (undiscussed) move of Latin War to Second Latin War. "Latin War" is now a disambiguation page with some 30+ pages linking to it. Fornadan (t) 19:01, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Recent templates

I am notifying you of recently-created templates {{Medea}}, {{Electra}} and {{Iphigenia}}. I also did {{Oedipus}} and {{Pygmalion navbox}} a few months ago. Feel free to comment, reorganize or revise. There are probably a few more forthcoming when I get a chance.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

also feel free to help me determine proper categories for these templates.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:49, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

See also {{Dido and Aeneas}}.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:21, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Template:Aesop

I have been contemplating creating {{Aesop}}, which would largely be a template about his fables. I am not sure about how to organize the template. Should I use Perry Index numbering or alphabetical? Should I include a section for Aesop's_Fables#Fables_wrongly_attributed_to_Aesop?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:11, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Being a grump, I suppose I would ask whether your questions might indicate a certain resistance of the material to disposition on a template. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:19, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Grumpington Bear! I think this would work and could be helpful, though it would be a very large template and I'd like to see how navigable it is once it includes all the pages Tony thinks it should. I would go with an alphabetical list because the Perry ordering reflects certain aspects of the fables' provenance that will likely not be the first concern of our audience. Alphabetical order, on the other hand, will naturally create stretches of the template that are thematically linked and allow the reader a better view of the corpus, at least what's on Wikipedia. The "apocryphal" items should definitely be in there: they're such a big part of the long story, and many readers who encounter your template on the bottom of the Aesop page will probably have been looking for an early modern fable and immediately see the tradition in which it was created and the fact that this tradition includes items that are nowhere near ancient.  davidiad { t } 15:23, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, if Mr. D is offering to help make these things happen in such good order, then that is all wonderful. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:38, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I have started building this template. How do I know when an article belongs in the "Apocrypha" category. E.g., many stories at Category:La Fontaine's Fables are on the list already. How can I confirm which other ones belong on the list.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:15, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

In the case of something like La Fontaine, I'd just stick a link to the article on the collection as you've done, though the "translations" section might be better titled "adaptations" and start with the ancient verse adapters of the fabulist's corpus, Babrius and Phaedrus. As for what would be included among the non-Aesopic or apocryphal fables, I think the only real way to go is what you're doing: finding pieces which have a Wikipedia article that states that the fable is often attributed to Aesop, but is unlikely or impossible to have belonged to the ancient corpus.  davidiad { t } 02:46, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Also, the writers mentioned in the second paragraph of this section should be in the template somewhere, as should the related Jataka and Panchatantra; I guess these last two belong in your "Related" section.  davidiad { t } 02:54, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Please step in and contribute your expertise to the template. Should Marcus Gheeraerts the Elder be in the template?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:28, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

I am thinking that if we are going to include all of these other authors, then the template should be renamed {{Aesop's Fables}}. Comments?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:39, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

That seems better, if it's about the fables and their tradition, and not the person. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:47, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I concur.  —Sowlos  13:42, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

O.K. so I have added a bunch of different translations and translators from this section and Aesop's Fables. This is why I was remiss about doing this template myself. How should this section be organized?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:28, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to think about this a bit this evening and tomorrow. I ran into similar issues when I decided to expand {{Homer}}—a project I abandoned this point. I probably can't do any deep thinking about this this evening, but will pop by the template to see where it is tomorrow.  davidiad { t } 22:01, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I am considering reverting this back to the version without all the extra authors and redlinked versions. Generally, I just use bluelinked topics for these types of templates. When articles are created they can be added back as blue links and I am not so sure all the authors belong.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:28, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

WP:REDNOT suggests that redlinks not be placed in navboxes and most templates, since it defeats the purpose of providing gateways to other articles. You might keep a list of these somewhere, such as a user page, as articles you could create, or so you could add them to the template if they turn magically blue. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:44, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I think I'd go with your gut on going back to that prior state, Tony. There are ways to get the other related material in, but would require some thought since it deals with a variety of relationships (temporal, generic, medium etc.).  davidiad { t } 16:51, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I have reverted to the earlier version and deployed the template to all the linked articles except the apocryphal ones.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:51, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

• I just noticed a few templates have a section for translators. I have added back all the translator blue links. How does it look?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:37, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I think it's a good idea to keep them (as blue links), and especially good because it brings in Phaedrus and Babrius. Also their numbers, as a separate register, don't detract from the template's navigability.  davidiad { t } 03:13, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Merging "First Latin War" into "Battle of Lake Regillus".

As recently discussed, another editor recently moved "Latin War" to "Second Latin War" and then created an article titled "First Latin War" consisting of a brief recapitulation of the Battle of Lake Regillus and the Foedus Cassianum, together with a pair of campaign boxes added to the battle and what's now entitled "Latin War (498 – 493 BC)." Now a proposal has been made to merge the two articles, which is opposed by said editor.

The "Latin War" article mentions no battles, campaigns, or actions other than the Battle of Lake Regillus, which would support the description of the period as some sort of extended war, but instead assumes that the treaty concluded by Cassius with the Latins several years later somehow marked its end. The campaign box names Cassius as the Roman "leader" in the war, although of course he held no more authority than any of the other consuls during the period, and doesn't seem to have led any campaigns or fought in any battles against the Latins. There are no citations in the article, and it contains no other material that isn't already included in "Battle of Lake Regillus" and "Foedus Cassianum."

The article is more-or-less a translation of an article from Spanish Wikipedia [1], and lists two sources: Herman Kinder y Werner Hilgemann (2003). Atlas histórico mundial. Tomo I. Madrid, Ediciones Istmo, S.A. pp. 79, and José Manuel Roldán (1987). Historia de Roma. Tomo I: La República Romana. Madrid: Ediciones Cátedra, S.A. pp. 90-91; 101-104. Having examined both sources I can understand how one could reasonably infer from the words, "498-493 Guerra latina" in Kinder & Hilgemann that there was "a war" during that period, but there isn't any detail there; the whole subsection contains only three sentences, two of which are concerned with subsequent alliances, and nowhere does it mention the Battle of Lake Regillus, the specific treaty concluded by Cassius, or any of the persons involved. So I don't believe that Kinder & Hilgemann can be called a significant source for the article. Roldán is even less supportive, since the single paragraph concerned with these events specifically states that (at least according to tradition) armed hostilities ended with the Battle of Lake Regillus; of the treaty it says only that it shows the battle to have been less decisive than tradition reports.

But neither of these sources seems to be good support for the assertion that a "state of war" existed from 498 to 493, or that the treaty of Cassius ended the war (the article on the treaty does mention ending a war, but no account of the treaty says that it did, and the article doesn't mention any conflicts occurring after the Battle of Lake Regillus). None of them describe Cassius as "the Roman leader" during the war. As far as I can tell, while it's perfectly reasonable to say that the Battle of Lake Regillus was part of the background for the treaty, there's no evidence that a war was carried on after the battle, or that Cassius played any role in it, or that war would have continued had the treaty not been made.

I don't see any support for the contention that there was a war between Rome and the Latin League consisting of anything other than the Battle of Lake Regillus, which provides a good background and pretty much everything about the conflict. Nor does there appear to be anything to connect the treaty with the battle, or any grounds to assert that the treaty was what ended a war beginning with the Battle of Lake Regillus. This being the case, I think that there doesn't need to be an article about this supposed war. I'm not sure whether a campaign box is appropriate, but I am sure that it makes no sense to describe Cassius as "the Roman leader." I'd like to see whether there's any agreement on these points before what might become a protracted conflict with the other editor. P Aculeius (talk) 13:57, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Byzantine Empire#The intro sentence

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Byzantine Empire#The intro sentence.  —Sowlos  13:39, 8 April 2013 (UTC)Template:Z48

Actually, the issue is opened at Talk:Byzantine Empire#Use/mention mismatch in title, again, which needs to be read first. DeCausa (talk) 14:09, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Really, this seems headed for the Lame Hall of Fame. Cynwolfe (talk) 22:31, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Colosseum

The Featured Picture of the day for 24th April is one of the Colosseum (see below). It can be expected that the article will get a lot of attention, but as it has been semi-protected since December 2010 there shouldn't be an increase in vandalism. With the increased attention I thought people here might want a heads up in case the project wants to give the article a once over. Nev1 (talk) 17:36, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Picture of the day

A panoramic view of the interior of the Colosseum in Rome, Italy. Built in the 1st century AD as a site for gladiatorial shows as well as a variety of other events, the Colosseum is now a major tourist attraction.Photo: Paolo Costa Baldi

Please help to improve the article "Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire"

I have left messages in various places around WP asking for help in a re-write of the (awful, in my opinion) article Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire and will be attempting a re-write over the next few weeks. I would appreciate any assistance from knowledgeable editors, it seems to me that working with others is a good way to achieve neutrality (but if I have to re-do it by myself, I will). Thanks Smeat75 (talk) 03:13, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Auto-assessing articles

(Citing a discussion on Cynwolfe's talkpage, any of your input is greatly appreciated.)

Hi Cynwolfe! As you know I am currently rating the unassessed articles in the Wikiproject Classical Greece & Rome. Following a number of additions from the Oxyrhynchus Papyri (see the bot log somewhere halfway down), I had the luminous idea of auto-assessing these "low importance" articles (as well as for example the "Legio ...", Milecastle, Classis, Cohors, "Battle of ..." and Lex articles). I think the TinucherianBot may be able to do this. The method could even be extended to articles in certain categories. What do you think about this? Bahnheckl (talk) 17:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I do know, and good for you. I don't do bots, though I adore luminous ideas. I can see why that list of papyri would wear a person down. I'm told somewhere above on this page that papyrologists, as it may be, are the most humane people on the planet, or at least superior to members of Congress, which is on second thought setting a very low bar. (Where was I?) So you're thinking that any individual legion, and especially all those bloody papyri, will automatically be low importance. Quite so. Don't tell Davidiad, though!

Joking aside: I thought that bot auto-assesses on the basis of preexisting ratings by other projects. What if there is no other banner? And doesn't the bot auto-rate quality on that basis as well? I'm ignorant of bots, so feel free to enlighten me. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:33, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I actually think most of those P.Oxy. articles should be deleted! Not notable and just dreadfully thrown together.  davidiad { t } 03:32, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I would suggest a merge as a list article, but that already exists, does it not? I turned a bunch of very stubby, poorly sources articles on Augustine's throng of little gods into lists and such. They made more sense in context, since most are just names he makes fun of (makes up in some cases?). Cynwolfe (talk) 10:44, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Merging (preserving information) is always preferable to deleting (destroying information).  —Sowlos  12:01, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Destroy! (exits stage left, pitchfork in one hand, torch in the other). I'll never formally try to delete them, or redirect them to a list, but they irk somethin' awful. davidiad { t } 22:44, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I'll ask the bot himself! Bahnheckl (talk) 20:54, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Being a Talk page stalker here, but as someone who's manually assessed nearly one-thousand articles (approximately 1/3 of my edit count), I would like to drop my two cents. It's very tedious work. So much so, I took a break from it for the past few months. Automation is a magnificent thing!
That being said, I believe Cynwolfe is right. I believe assessment bots tag articles based on other pre-existing assessments. Unfortunately, many banners over or under rate their articles' respective contents. Is TinucherianBot able to tag articles as bot-assessed or produce a list of the articles it assesses? Bot assessment would definitely help, but their work should be checked or at least sampled. :)  —Sowlos  23:09, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

As another stalker, I think most manual assessments are based almost entirely on article length, and without making any distinction between large & small topics. There is also a big question as to how much assessment produces useful results, ie does anyone act on the assessments to improve articles. In most projects I fear they do not. But it may be different round here. Johnbod (talk) 23:53, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

When the Women's History project started (which I've sadly neglected the last several months, thanks to getting sucked into the Roman Empire), we discussed auto-assessment at some length. One of the goals of the project was to integrate women's history into overview articles; one example at that time was the scarcity of women in American Old West, except for a passing reference to (of course) prostitutes. Some of us objected to auto-assessment for quality ratings especially, since an article might be well done otherwise while lacking relevant coverage of women—and identifying these deficiencies was the point. Since the only purpose of project importance ratings is to prioritize work (a C-class top-importance article is an embarrassment), those ratings need to be project-specific too. I fear I've infected Bahnheckl with one of my own concerns for most-visited articles. Although I don't think Spartacus is a more important topic than, oh, dozens of others I could name under the G&R aegis, last time I looked it had surpassed even Julius Caesar in popularity. So I do think we have an obligation to make sure these high-traffic articles aren't disasters, and traffic is one factor in prioritizing. I've been trying to concentrate on existing articles with more than 30,000 monthly visitors, though I find it more relaxing to write on obscure topics. Cynwolfe (talk) 03:12, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

How 'bout we move this to the project talk page... Bahnheckl (talk) 07:37, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

This is a valid point. Though assessment should be based on fairly objective standards, the perspectives important to various WikiProjects are different. Therefore their ideas on what's complete coverage (a key concern in assessment) may be different. Also, many WikiProjects maintain their own varying standards for assessment.
I still think bot assessment can help. It can give us a general impression of the so far unassessed articles, which should still be confirmed by human observation.  —Sowlos  12:01, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

See also the related bot request. Bahnheckl (talk) 07:40, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Erm, ahem, didn't know my irrelevant jesting with the papyrologist would be moved to the project page. Couldn't we just have asked the question here? I'm not opposed to using the bot, and saw its utility with certain groups of articles. I'm unclear, however, about whether it can be deployed on just those categories, or whether it's unleashed on all unassessed articles with a G&R banner—for which I would not see much purpose, per Sowlos' last comment. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:07, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Forgot to follow one of B's links first: it seems the bot operator can customize it, so there's one obstacle out of the way. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:09, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

In response to the bot request, I'm thinking of adding the following:

Assess with "low importance" the articles that:

1. Are in WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome.

2. Currently missing importance rating.

3. Whose names begin with one of the following: "Papyrus Oxyrhynchus", "Legio " (that's with a space), "Milecastle", "Classis " (id.), "Cohors ", "Battle of ", "Lex ", "Arch of", "Pons "/"Pont "/"Ponte ", "Siege of " and "Aqua ". OR Names containing "bridge"/"Bridge" "fort"/"Fort" "villa"/"Villa" (as standalone words..)

4. It would be nice if the articles in this selection that exceed 10.000 pgviews/month would be rated "Mid", but this is optional. (I don't think there are any such articles in the set)"

What do you say? Bahnheckl (talk) 15:47, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't assume all battles are of low importance (Actium, Cannae, Carrhae, Milvian Bridge, Munda), though the ones that are of mid-importance are probably rated already. The same might be true of arches and leges. So that isn't an objection so much as a reservation. Wonder what would happen if we included "(mythology)"? I'm guessing the major deities are rated, and this would mainly effect Augustine's mob of little godlings and the million Greek nymphs. Via? Porta? May not be enough of those to matter. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:41, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

We could assume that, if these articles (Actium, etc.) hadn't been assessed yet, they would probably be on someone's watchlist (given their importance), in which case we would be likely to hear of our outrageous edits soon enough? Or we could put them there ourselves of course... About your suggestions: Porta has no entries and Via has only 1, but it was worth a shot. "(mythology)" however will do fine! See: List of all importance-unassessed articles. Do you think we're good to go? Bahnheckl (talk) 21:32, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Done! 430 articles assessed. Bahnheckl (talk) 07:31, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Human–goat sexual intercourse - deletion discussion ongoing

• Human–goat sexual intercourse

Deletion discussion ongoing about whether or not this article page should exist.

Please see deletion discussion page at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Human–goat sexual intercourse, if you wish to voice your opinion. — Cirt (talk) 15:41, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

WP Classical Greece and Rome in the Signpost

The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. –Mabeenot (talk) 01:18, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Etymology of Saturn

May/Is somebody able/willing to help me to find the origin of the story here below? This would perhaps lead us to the true etymology of the theonym.

The Latin WK article Neptunus carries a piece of info which is of high interest about Saturn (unfortunately unreferenced): Cronus was forced to vomit his children by Zeus using a potion made with satureia a herb/plant said to be poisonous. Though in fact the herb we call satureia is not toxic, but only mildly aphrodisiac. In the antiquity it was considered to be the herb of the satyrs, whence its name. But this find is a possibly decisive step about the etymology of theonyms Saturn, Satre, as it BTW confirms the intuition of the scholar Giovanni Alessio: he lists as cognates Etr. Satre, Latin personal name Satrius, Oscan Sadiiris, Paelignan Sadries, from the name of the ancient town of Latium Satria, and of the Saturae palus a marsh also in Latium, theonym Sāturnus/ Saeturnus ( the last form attested in CIL I 449). All these names are to be considered strictly related to Latin satureia the herb in question. Cf. also Horace Sat. I 6, 59 Satureianus adjective from toponym.

So all this seems to prove that Saturn got this name because he had been deprived of his powers by Jupiter who poisoned him with a potion made with satureia. Question: what authority narrates this story? Thanks to all for the attention.Aldrasto11 (talk) 12:06, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I can't comment on the rest, but there is a confusion between two plants here. Satureia is savory (Satureja hortensis), an aromatic herb which is not in the least aphrodisiac (at least, not in my experience -- what more can one say?), and is used every day in cookery. Satyrion is "Orchis mascula", an orchid bulb, which definitely has had the reputation of being aphrodisiac or "strengthening", and is used in hot drinks (the modern name of the product is salep). Some academic commentators on Latin texts have confused these two, so, where Wikipedia depends on such reliable sources, Wikipedia may well confuse them also. Let's hope no disappointment is caused :)

FWIW, the Latin name of the aphrodisiac was a linguistic borrowing from Greek. It appears to be (and surely is) linked with satyrs, oversexed mythological beings. It surely can't have a close connection with Saturnus, which is not a Greek but a Latin name. But I'm no etymologist. Andrew Dalby 12:58, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me that if there's no universally-agreed upon etymology, the most that we can present is some possible explanations. It's not our job as Wikipedians to analyze the possibilities and arrive at the "correct" answer. That definitely falls under the heading of original research, and in any case I'm sure we wouldn't have complete agreement on the answer within the community, even if the result seemed more likely than not. I understand that it's difficult to present logical or convincing arguments in a neutral manner. I believe there's some leeway when it comes to just how possible explanations are presented. But as long as there's some reasonable uncertainty as to the etymology of a word or name, any potential derivations need to be presented so that it's clear to readers that they're merely possibilities, and not established certainties. P Aculeius (talk) 13:11, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Agree with P Aculeius about a balanced presentation, and am utterly entranced by Andrew Dalby's explanation (my most sage-laden meal is Thanksgiving, with noticeably anaphrodisiac effects). There's also the matter of ancient vs. modern etymology. Even if modern scholars agree on the correct etymology of a word in terms of scientific linguistics, particularly with a divine name the ancient etymology is informative as to how the ancient sources themselves thought of meaning. As in Ovid's Fasti, the antiquarian collection of possibilities has its own significance (not to sound postmodernist, but with Ovid under Augustus it does seem to be about the instability of meaning). I'd love to have an article on ancient etymology to link to, with sections on Stoic and Varronian etymology in particular. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:33, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot to everybody and particularly to Andrew Dalby for the very informative and useful info. My insight is that satyrion is perhaps the herb in question: as it looks like a male sex organs, the bulbs the testicles and the stem an erect penis, it seems to me that the story of the potion hides an equivalent of castration. But the name may have been confused already in ancient Italy with that of satureia. Or perhaps some of the names Alessio connects to satureia may in fact be related to satyrion: it was usual to render ypsilon with v in Latin or Italic languages.

If somebody can help me find the authority who narrates this version of the story of the dethronement of Cronus by Zeus I think we may have made a great step forward. Of course I agree that this would be just a possible etymology, but it looks very strongly corroborated both by modern linguistic studies and by ancient myth.Aldrasto11 (talk) 23:49, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I found an ancient Lat. equivalent for satyrion: sature, cited in the glosses; as I had supposed and it might have been at the basis of those toponyms related by Alessio to satureia.Aldrasto11 (talk) 11:21, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

The National epics

I have just expanded {{Odyssey navbox}} and created {{Iliad navbox}} and {{Aeneid}}. I would love some help organizing and formatting these.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:52, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Ptolemy's Geography.British Islands: Alouion(Alwion? Alvion? Aljion?)&Iournia(Iwrnia? Ivrnia?) vs Albion&Ierne

See question-problem here. OK at the Albion and Hibernia articles one finds (don't know about the validity of these claims but I'm guessing they're valid, strong):
Q-Celtic name *Īweriū & Proto-Celtic * Alb-i̯en- .I.e. Glides w & j or anyway something like that;Greek usage of ου to stand for w- /w/ (clasical Latin V)) is already known to me;but used also for Latin J (i.e glide-semivowel, consonantal I)?!?!? When at the same time as far as as I know Latin orthography-spelling of these words didn't have glides, i.e. Albion (ok i here might be a glide but the b isn't dropped), Hibernia (again the second i that might be a glide is irrelevant)?How about the H (-addition?) in the Latin spelling-form?Moreover are we sure that the ου in the two words in Greek isn't really just an ou, e.g. just a changed orthography & pronunciation? How about changes of β-b from sounding /b/ to sounding /v/? Etc etc etc.
So despite the Proto-, P-, Q- (or whatever) Celtic reconstruction above and all other stuff,I'm still not exactly sure what Ptolemy meant, if indeed this orthography is his and not of a later scribe-copist...Btw are there any other Geography editions that use in these words other letters-symbols instead of ουs? How about other writers of the period using ουs to spell these words?
You get the picture.So concluding and repeating the question(s):
what is the correct in this case transliteration of Ἰουρνία & Ἀλουίων? Is there in fact a correct one? And how would one exlpain in a article here these forms vs the Ablion-Ierne ones???Should one in fact even try to explain this or is it to hard or conjectural to do so?Are there any people here that really, really know their stuff on these issues??? Thanx! Thanatos|talk 23:29, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Could you restate the question more clearly, please? Are you asking for a method of rendering the Greek into Latin or into English? The Latin forms of these names are certainly Albion (or Albania) and Hibernia, although the Romans usually referred to the former as Britannia. If we assume that the Romans considered the Greek ου in these names as the equivalent of b, rather than uu, then I don't see the point of rendering them in Latin letters as Alouion and Iouernia. Just because i is the literal equivalent of iota doesn't mean that all words beginning with iota should be rendered with an i in Latin; context tells us that Greek script often ignored initial h in words and names, just as both we and the Romans usually transliterate ου as u. Here it's apparent that a different sound was being rendered, at least to Latin ears. Does rendering a "literal" version of the Greek risk confusing the reader? My thought would be simply to use the Greek and Latin forms as interchangeable, without presenting non-Latin transliterations of the Greek as if they were good Latin. P Aculeius (talk) 00:13, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Could you restate the question more clearly, please? Are you asking for a method of rendering the Greek into Latin or into English?
The case of ουs in this context is very special.If it were e.g. Latin names that we were dealing with, one might could as well transliterate using Vs.But that's not the case.It's a case of probable Celtic words getting into Greek, then into Latin, then possibly again entering Greek and/or Latin again from Celtic and interplaying between Greek and Latin and....
It would help to read the relevant articles to see what editors(including me) were trying to do in general.Warning: it's possibly a hot touchy issue(calling e.g. Ireland a British Island and claiming that it was also thus called in antiquity).

See for example here;

Earlier attested forms in Greek are Albion&Ierne while some (or at least 1) newer (in Ptolemy's Geography and at least in the edition I have before me on the screen) Alouion&Iournia (when tranliterating OYs as OUs).
At the same time as stated in the relative articles (Albion and Hibernia): Q-Celtic name *Īweriū & Proto-Celtic * Alb-i̯en-.
Does the Greek change (in Ptolemy's Geography) of forms reflect a change of Greek phonology or a retransmission of the more correct Celtic sounds-pronunciation of the words?If a retransmission how is it that other writers and especially Latin-Roman sources(at least as as I know) don't use them and don't change spelling to include the "more easily" available to them glides? Or how is then possible to possibly have a /w/ in Alouion? How e.g. did the b get dropped?Based on cited Celtic forms how does the H in Latin Hibernia get justified? You said e.g. context tells us that Greek script often ignored initial h in words and names: it might be so but this is irrelevant cause in this case 1. it was the Romans that got the words from the Greeks (at least as per Pytheas' travels etc and at elast initially) 2.the Greeks at least initially as per sources didn't use a daseia 3. I don't see in the cited Celtic reconstruction-etymology of Ierne-Ireland an initial H.Simply no H there.

Trying to be more clear with the question(again please to read some of the relevant section in the linked to articles(go to the aforementioned talk page) to understand the issue(s) at hand;can' be more clear or analytic without repeating myself):
what do these specific ΟΥs in these two words represent(we could possibly go through all Geographias text and do the same for many other words but let's not do that... :) ; it's anyway 99.9999% Albion and Ierne that is being quoted here and of interest)? Real, simple OYs? Glides? If so which glide(s)? Something else? How should we then transliterate them?Just leave them as ΟΥs for example?How would we then justify it in the text when next to Albion&Ierne forms? How many different forms should there be used(moreover when one includes also Bs vs Ps, single vs double Ts, single vs double Ns)? During for example the last days while I was doing this work, I've encountered at the aforementioned articles Ws in Ierne-ia, Ierne without a W, I've encountered Ierne when the surviving text was Latin, Hibernia when the cited text was Greek, Albion when the cited text was the Geography (wherein I see OUs not Bs) etc etc etcThanatos|talk 01:04, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Could I ask what secondary sources you're working with? Both Albion and Hibernia are in desperate need of up-to-date sources. Cynwolfe (talk) 02:37, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Primary sources only (basically mostly what is and has been done about this topic, let's name it ancient toponymy of the British Islands(ATotBI), inside all these articles, is listing ancient sources and what they say about ATotBI) with just a snippet here and there of Snyder's The Britons pg.12 cause it's great,very handy as a synospis of most issues that are being covered;ancient Greek and Latin;added them en masse(mostly over the last few days), i.e provided references, with online links to books, texts etc, to the ancient authors that had already been mentioned, quoted, covered in the articles, added even more of them (authors) and corrected (as much as possible) errors, erroneous quotations, attributions, language etc...Thanatos|talk 03:41, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I tried Googling "snyper "the britons"" and I didn't find anything ...

Oh, it's OK, I saw a reference at Albion. It's "Snyder". No problem.

Coming to your questions, then, others can probably help you much more than I can, but I suggest keeping closely in mind the general Wikipedia policy: we only cite primary sources for what they say. We have to rely on secondary sources for all interpretation. That would include names found in ancient sources such as Ptolemy. We give the Greek: then we turn to secondary sources. Andrew Dalby 08:49, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

1.Snyper was obviously a typo;It's indeed Snyder.Sorry, mea culpa.

2.Yes I know about wikipedia's view on primary sources, though in this case one could argue that they really aresecondary or even tertiary...Yes I knew that someone would reply in this manner... :) To which I reply and close by 1.ok, so feel free to provide some; feel also free to fill all the relevant sections spread over many articles with content citing preferably 2ndary or 3ary modern sources on this arguably esoteric issue 2.by the phrase I used to close my initial entry here: Are there any people here that really, really know their stuff on these issues??? ;-) Thanatos|talk 10:30, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

The secondary source I go to first (because I have it) is A. L. F. Rivet, Colin Smith, The Place-Names of Roman Britain (London: Batsford, 1979). On this specific issue, "Names for Britain" pp. 39-40; "Names for Ireland" (very brief) p. 40. One usual Wikipedia method, if there is dispute about the interpretation of the Greek in different secondary sources, would be to cite the Greek forms/transliterations given in one authoritative source, such as this one, and then to cite other serious secondary sources that disagree with it. Maybe Snyder is one such: I haven't seen that book. Andrew Dalby 11:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

1. Don't have it , not available in Google Books or elsewhere online 2.OK so what does it say about Alouion vs Albion and Iouernia vs Ierne vs Hibernia? Or how it differs from Snyder's quoted passages etc? You have the book, why don't you tell us? 3.Since you want the articles to be based on this kind of sources then how about Prettanic vs Pretanic vs Brettanic vs Bretanic vs Bretannic vs Brettanike vs Britannia vs... Earliest attested date of the Graceo-Romans speaking about or knowing of the Br.Is. and the people thereon? How about Pytheas' travels? Orkas-Kantion-Belerion and triangular shape? 4.Feel free to do the work.It's only in minimum 10 articles (content&references).... :D 5.Ok I'm obviously kidding. If I were to guess I'd say that, chances are the content therein is like the one of Snyder's.Laconic, to the point but lacking in this topic and moving on to exploring other stuff.I'm guessing that in what it does say, it won't be that different from what has already been said and cited at the wikiarticles, and in what it doesn't, well...But would welcome anyone having my guess(-es) refuted and doing the rest of the very long hard work.Thanatos|talk 12:13, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

(ec) I think what is perhaps confusing the OP is the spelling Iournia, which seems to be where the idea of a y glide is coming in. But most sources I've read have Iouernia, which would be transliterated into Latin as Ivernia. There's a theory that the influence of Latin hibernus, wintry, led from that to "Hibernia". Variation between w, v and b is not unsual, of course, and also explains the Alouion/Albion variation. --Nicknack009 (talk) 12:17, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Checking this now.If so then certainly this would be my mistake that would require me fixing my edits and could be atribbuted to lack of sleep.Butanyway the biggest problem is as I've written before this: Alouion.Thanatos|talk 12:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

EDIT:MEA CULPA MEA CULPA MEA MAXIMA CULPA.You're correct!It's obviously Iouernia.As I myself had it edited in e.g. here!!!So please dirsegard this.Tracing back my steps this mistake-error seems to have entered my thoughts and writing whilst writing the initial call for expert help at the talk page here and henceforth followed along.P.S.But not a j-y glide:instead it's or it seems to be a V i.e. /w/, at least as per cited Celtic at Hibernia.P.P.S.Yes I've also read about winter-wintry influencing the spelling.Thanatos|talk 12:41, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Contrinuing: OK now that my stupid mistake has been corrected let's return to the major problem; you've written:"and also explains w, v and b is not unsual, of course, and also explains the Alouion/Albion variation"

well sorry but the Celtic albion i.e. Alb-i̯en- seems to have a J glide (=consonantal Latin I) not a W(=consonantal Latin V) and these two glides differ.They're like or = to English glide y vs English glide w.P.S.Provided of course that the provided Celtic word-reconstructions-etymology at the relevant Wikipedia articles are correct.Have no idea if they indeed are.Not a linguist.Not a Celtist.Thanatos|talk 12:56, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

If there's a y-glide in Albion, there's also one in Alouion, in the same position, represented by the same letter, i. The only difference between the two spellings is that one has a b where the other has a w, and as these are both labials it's not uncommon for them to vary, as I said. --Nicknack009 (talk) 13:02, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

OK now I'm might be out of my league:The Iota in Greek (both modern and ancient) can be a semivowel i.e. = Latin J. Ok let's say that in ancient Greek and in Ptolemy's Geography the word was indeed pronounced Albi̯ōn (I hope I'm getting the symbolism right). No problem with that.What I can't understand is the transformation of the beta to a /w/ (or the dropping of Beta and the interaddition of a W (or OY)), i.e. how did this Alwi̯ōn came to be(or anyway something like this, again don't know if I'm writting the symbolism right).E.g. Greek Beta sometime during the hellenistic-graeco-roman period changed from /b/ to /v/.Did it happen by passing first through /w/??But even if it did happen, how come this, in Geography, "only" in this Celtic Word and why this Celtic word especially when in Celtic it didn't have a /w/ glide but instead a J?Thanatos|talk 13:28, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

B, V and W are all labial consonants, and it is quite common for one to develop into another via a the processes like lenition (B softens to V, V softens to W), fortition (the exact opposite) and betacism (the specific form of lenition that affects the phoneme B). The Greek letter beta was pronounced like a B in ancient Greek, but like a V in modern Greek. The same process has happened in other languages. In Irish, when the letter b is mutatated to bh, it is pronounced like a V or a W. --Nicknack009 (talk) 15:26, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Now you've messed up the linear flow... :) : Yes I know that it has happened to other languages too.But could you please provide ,if some other example of /b/ turning to /w/ (or even /v/) in ancient Greek of this transitional period (and henceforth) specifically in Bs to OUs in the written form(so that it could be easily verified)? Still don't get the point? Basileus for example, may have had its sound changed to vasilefs (simplifying to total change to modern Greek and focusing only on important-relative parts) BUT it was then and is still written Basileus(again simplifying by not mentioning vasilias etc);can you provide an attested example of Basileus (or some other word) being written OYasileus during that period and onwards???? Bous -> Ouous? Boutyron -> Ououtyron?? Ballo -> OUallo? ProsBallo -> prosOUallo? Baino -> Ouaino? Barys to Ouarys... What you're invoking and claiming is a very general possibility, a very general phaenomenon which to my knowledge is, however well attested in the general sense, irrelevant and not attested in how words containing Bs in Greek since at least I'd say the archaic times are written.What I'm saying is that as far as as know, this special usage of OU in Greek in the (graeco-)roman period and onwards was strictly restricted to transliterations of Latin consonantal Vs!!E.g. Varus -> Ouaros. Do you get it? While what you're saying is that it was also used in writting words that previously had been spelled in Greek with a B because its sound changed(see the antiphasis??)!! Moreover that this may have happened not only(I've leaving a great deal of possibilities open as you can see) on e.g. epigraphical errors(wherein one usually finds attested in the orthographical errors the evidence of phonological change, e.g. using αι instead of ε and vice versa) but also in a famous work by a famous author!!!Thanatos|talk 17:02, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Neither Iouernia nor Alouion are Greek words - they are foreign words transliterated into Greek, just like Ouaros for Varus - so what you're asking for does not make sense. Ptolemy is not changing anything, he's doing his best to represent what these two foreign words sound like in Greek orthography. --Nicknack009 (talk) 18:54, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

What you're claiming, as far as I know, makes no sense or is very far fetched in a really complex manner(and moreover based on it, I find it funny that some people would ascribe to me original research...;-)).The Celtic or "Celtic" word has a B.It had been written in Greek with a B.Also the glide in Celtic was a J not a V;the J glide in Greek was written as in Latin with a I(or (much) later as time passed by with a ΓΙ);Greek had symbols for both glides and used as far a I know ΟΥ only for transcribing V.

But I could or would gladly change my mind if some expert sources would be provided...

Imo what would make your case really plausible and make this whole discussion redundant is proving Latin sources (especially of this and older periods) spelling Albion as ALVION... ;-) Thanatos|talk 15:40, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I encourage Thanatos to review WP:OR, especially WP:PST. I dropped a note at the talk page of an editor who has solid expertise in Celtic studies and linguistics. I don't know that he'll choose to wade into this, but he is likely to have appropriate secondary sources. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:06, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

1.I have read them many times in the past thank you.The Celtist and his secondary sources can also certainly help, though it seems he may also need to be a Hellenist and also have secondary sources on this specific issue...
2.99.5% of the relevant work I've done is not original research;It's just correcting quotes, errors and creating references for already quoted ancient authors or after adding additional ancient authors and quoting them, following the exact same paradigm, adding again references in the same way.I would also strongly encourage you to read all ten linked to and edited by me articles on this issue.Even if 50% of what I have done were original research then it would be a 1000fold improvement on the state the (sections of the) articles were in...Go look at the edit history...Could you please tell me e.g. who this Isadorus Charactacenis is and why is there no reference (at Albion)? Or could you provide me a link to Massaliote Periplus that keeps (or kept) being directly quoted all over the place-articles? Citing-invoking supposed WP:OR,WP:PST or whatever when the state of some articles (or at least parts of them) is a clearly misleading or utterly wrong mess seems hardly justified to me...Having an abundance of referenced primary sources especially when one is just listing authors and how they called places and people seems 1000fold better to me than having no references at all and/or being full of half-truths or totally erroneous-wrong statements....Thanatos|talk 13:28, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Isidore of Charax. Andrew Dalby 13:52, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes I know.Thank you.I've already written that it's probable him here.The question was of a higher order-level of abstraction, let's say rhetorical... ;-) P.S.I'm keep having these @%@#% edit conflicts!!!Could you people please allow me to express my thoughts in full before messing with my edits?!?!? :p Thanatos|talk 13:56, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I've been out buying a lawn-mower, came back, saw your question, answered it. The way to avoid that is not to ask questions :)

Now I'll ask one. What's the source for the form Ἀλουίων? Andrew Dalby 14:05, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

1.Ok then,since we're having fun,why did you answer the question when it hadn't been directed to you??? ;-)

2.Ptolemy's Geography.Must have said this 1000 times by now...See e.g. the one I've provided as a reference:

Claudius Ptolemy (1843). "index of book II". In Nobbe, Carolus Fridericus Augustus. Claudii Ptolemaei Geographia. vol.1. Leipzig: sumptibus et typis Caroli Tauchnitii. p. 59.Thanatos|talk 14:17, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

If you post questions here at the project talk page, you can expect anybody who watches the page to answer. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:47, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

You've missed the having fun part, the smilies part, the part that I've asked you may times to read the edits and the articles I've told you about and moreover replying yourself to the question.So could you please yourself reply?Again let me warn you, I already know the probable answer, it's a question of a higher level of abstraction, if you get what I mean... Or alternatively we can stop this and focus instead on the issue at hand... ;-) Thanatos|talk 15:42, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Albion is not a Celtic word, it belongs to the so called Mediterranean substrate. In fact this word is to be found in many parts of western Europe and beyond: its meaning is uncertain. It may have denoted mountains and valleys, then rivers, fortified places etc. at different times and places. Albion was the name of the highest mountain in the Eastern Alps (Strabo). Alp too may be just another form of Alb. in Spain there are forms such Alawa, Alawon, Alagon, Aragon, Alaba, Alba etc. Also we find many Albula mounts and rivers in Switzerland and Italy.

I have researched this topic a bit, using Italian and Spanish scholarship. Italian linguists were the first to study in depth place names and their distribution and possible origin. V. Bertoldi, F. Ribezzo, C. Battisti, G. Alessio etc. who studied with Austrian Meyer Lubke at the end of nineteenth cent. Many of Alessio's works are online and if you can read Italian you will find plenty of interesting material and new perspectives. In his article on the name of Brindisi he gives plenty of info about all the brent- of Europe, Britain included: simply from deer, i.e. deer's head and horns, for the shape. Not a Celtic word either. The most common Med. roots are mal-, mat/med-, vel-, tul-, garg-, kapr-/k(e)rp, penn-/pinn-, pal-/pol- all meaning rock or mount or ravine. E. g. in Belgium Malmedy, Montmedy, German Malmünd same. In Italian Magliana, Meduno, anc. Medullia Maleventum, etc. Spanish Medulas. In Belgium Sambre, in Italy Sambro, rivers (the so called ancient Eur. hydronymy), hundreds of cases.

For your topic it may be interesting: Ullapool where the first U is reflecting a spirant affricate, from Volas Sinus (Ουόλας κόλπος), precisely that of Latin volaemum, a species of pear (Cato Agr. 7; Verg. Georg. II 88), Volaminia (always Alessio's genius). Seen in the Carmen Saliare Lucia Volaminia (Varro LL IX 61)(in John the Lydian Βάρρος!). Probably meaning in the curved shape of a sickle, thence good, abundant, Latin vola.Aldrasto11 (talk) 06:11, 26 April 2013 (UTC) I wish to add that I think the original form was probably a w, then it changed to v and v to b. This happened in Spain where the most anc. f. att. is Alawa. Then the a fell lw changed to v, then to b. So now in Basque we have albarico a steep slope in Italy Albaro place name of a hill. But in other areas and different times the process may be the opposite as in the instance of Ullapool.Aldrasto11 (talk) 10:55, 26 April 2013 (UTC) It is an issue similar to that of the voiced aspirates in Italic. E.g. in Oscan and Umbrian one finds Tifernus = Lat. Tiberius. It is highly probable the Oscan "f" was not our voiceless spirant but it was voiced and sounded like our "v". See Stuart Mill's book online. The rules and problems of IE phonology though cannot apply to substrate words, at least in the stage in which they were not used by Indoeuropean speakers.Aldrasto11 (talk) 13:05, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Au contraire. Though not uncontested, the dominant view is that Albion is most likely a Celtic word, as Wolfgang Meid has shown:[2] it's related to the Celtic name Albiorix. It's among the words, however, that show the close relationship of Celtic to the Italic languages. I'm away from my other source now, but it shares the PIE root of Latin albus. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:48, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Even if the word weren't Celtic per se, it would make no great difference;what's imo really significant is its original form which judging from most attested oldest Greek and Latin sources seems to me that to have been Albi̯ōn or Albiōn or something like that;BUT an expert's view on this would help greatly.

"(Varro LL IX 61) in John the Lydian Βάρρος!" doesn't also surpise me much cause it's from a much later period.In modern Greek for example we casually transcribe-transliterate Latin(and more) V with a Beta.In other words in later times I think that although OΥ for V still survived, B started being also increasingly used(I guess when both Beta and Latin V had wholly turned into sounding /v/??).P.S.As far as I know we don't have exact chronologies of the sound shifts.What is usually contrasted is Classic vs Late Antiquity,Medieval and Modern with Hellenistic (and Roman) times being a transitional period of great change;though of course this is a simplification cause all periods were or are thought of as transitional up to a point.... Thanatos|talk 15:40, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Albion was a Celtic n-stem (see "Nasal Stems" in the Proto-Celtic language wiki) and the Brittonic form of the name would have been nominative singular *Albiiū (whence Old Welsh elbid, Modern Welsh elfydd "world"), genitive singular *Albiionos. Celtic n-stems were normally Latinized and Hellenized in antiquity as their cognate 3rd declension –ō and -ών stems, respectively. Ptolemy's Αλουιων is likely due to a copyist's error (he probably utilized a Latin source in which the name was mistakenly written *Aluion; alternately, he - or his source - might have become accustomed to correcting Vulgar Latin -b- for -u- and committed a hypercorrection by thinking that Albion was a mistake for *Aluion). Cagwinn (talk) 15:59, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

That would make great sense!!!Can a source-reference be provided for it?It would be great to have a source specifically on this exact word, specifically in Ptolemy's Geographia, so that people wouldn't object by invoking WP:OR-original research...

P.S.As I've said above(before realising that you had commented and hence before reading your comment Cagwinn), one thing that could instantly resolve this discussion is finding Latin (or even more Greek) sources reading ALVIO-N as the Romans were now ruling-controlling (access to and knowledge of) the West (along with the Hellenistic East).Thanatos|talk 16:17, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Kenneth Jackson, Language and history in early Britain, Edinburgh, 1953, p. 35: "The Greek β had become a bilabial [b] in pronunciation before Ptolemy's day, and consequently the Celtic [ṷ], a similar though not identical sound, is often spelt with β, as in Βερουβιουμ = Verubium, Κορναβιοι for Cornavii. In Άλουιων for Albion the reverse error is found."; Archibald Black Scott, The Pictish Nation, Its People & Its Church, T. N. Foulis, 1918, p. 6: "Ptolemy's spelling (c. 127) is Alouion, due, very likely, to a copyist's error." I'm sure Rivet & Smith, Place Names of Roman Britain, also discuss this, but I have misplaced my copy of the book. For the Celtic etymology of Albion, see: John T. Koch, 'New Thoughts on Albion, Iernē, and the Pretanic Isles (Part One)', Proceedings of the Harvard Celtic Colloquium, Vol. 6, (1986), pp. 1-28.Cagwinn (talk) 17:10, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I bow to you, ὦ Μέγιστε!!!
P.S.-EDIT-ADDENDUM: I have or could find no access, physical or online(e.g. at google books), the latter being the more important-grave, to these books.I could, in due time, just copy from you here and add an explanation & references of the Ἀλουίων-Alwion spelling at e.g. Britain_(placename)#The_record, but I really think that it would be much better and proper if you, or some other person with such direct access and knowledge(despite your claim at your talk page that you can't understand what the whole discussion here is about), would be the one who edits them in (also Iouernia; see e.g. Hibernia).Thanatos|talk 17:29, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Yep, he's the best. Until you can look over the bibliography, you might in the meantime find some use (as succinct explanation or for citation) in the entries for Albion and Hibernia in the Celtic Culture encyclopedia, edited by the aforementioned Koch (the entries were contributed by Koch with Philip Freeman). Cynwolfe (talk) 18:40, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Unless and until Google Books and much more importantly the Internet Archive or Open Library (or other here to remain unnamed sites...) upload these books, I won't be able to look over this bibiliography, ever.But thanks for suggesting the Celtic Encyclopedia (though searching therein -using the Google Books search function- for the *****ου***** forms -accented or not, about either Abion or Ierne, etc- leads to "No results found in this book for...").Also thanks for bringing in the Celtic experts... :) We now have real modern references.Thanatos|talk 19:34, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Some quotes regarding the etymology of Albion from John T. Koch, 'New Thoughts on Albion, Iernē, and the Pretanic Isles (Part One)', Proceedings of the Harvard Celtic Colloquium, Vol. 6, (1986), pp. 1-28.

P. 1: '*Albiju: gives Welsh elfydd "the world," and may derive from an Indo-Eurpean root meaning "white". It survives in M[iddle]Ir[ish] as Albu, Alba, signifying both the whole of Britain and, more specifically, Pictland, later scotland -- i.e. Britain north of the Forth.'

P. 3-4: 'Plainly elfydd does not mean the whole of the universe, nor even what we would call the earth. It excludes...the lower atmospheric air or sky...wind,...sea, and it sits above the Un-world or Annwfyn (<*an-dubno-), which is clearly enough in the Welsh tradition, the subterranean realm of the old pagan gods. Elfydd is where the trees and flowers grow. It is that part to which dynion "human beings" belong, In all the old examples it is the surface of the dry land which is meant. Elfydd cannot be "white" ([Proto-Indo-European] *albho-) in contradistinction to the atmosphere or sky above, but surely so in contrast to the gloomy underworld below.' Cagwinn (talk) 19:38, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

In case it's still useful -- (1) Kenneth H. Jackson, Language and History in Early Britain has become available here at hathitrust. I'm not sure why -- I don't believe it can be PD -- but I'm not asking any questions. Thanks for making me search, Thanatos.

(2) I don't think Rivet & Smith, Place Names of Roman Britain, can be found on the Web. For what it's worth, I don't find any mention in that book of the form Alouion. Andrew Dalby 11:27, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Of course the general public and Indoeuropeanist academics are not happy when it is shown to them that their own ethnonym, place names etc. are not of IE origin. This is true in Spain and Italy too, where recently there is an attempt, already failed in my view, to prove that all place names are IE and Celtic. But this fact, though likely to stir up long controversies, is in my view proven beyond doubt. Among many other arguments the law of the greater area or of side areas (also known as Bartoli's law) leaves no chances that Albion, Britain etc. are a Celtic word. I have researched the topic of European toponymy and just reading Strabo, Ptolemy, the Itenerarium Antonini etc. will give everyone who is not prejudiced certainty thereof. It is very simple: when you find a word spread over an area greater than its synoyms of IE origin it means it is the more ancient form. Now Albion is to be found in Latium (Alba Longa) in Liguria (Albion Ingaunum, now Albenga, Albion Intemelium, now Ventimiglia), on the Alps (Albion Oros in the Julian Alps: Strabo). In the Balkans we have Albania, Albona-Labin in Histria (=in Latium Alba and Labicum). In Spain I have already written above one finds Alawa as the most ancient form, certainly Basque. Hubschmid ("Lenguas no indoeuropeas: testimonios romanicos" in Enciclopedia Linguistica Hispanica t. I Madrid 1960 p. 480) believes from Alaba which originated the province name of Alava and ancient Alauwna in the Basque Country. Corresondences in in Alava Oviedo and Alaveiro> Aveiro in Portugal and Alabos a river in Sicily and Alebus near Elche (Avienus) and Alagon formerly named Alavon. Cf. Liburni, Libarna all related to rock. Albula: there are 4 rivers in Italy named A. one of them being the anc. name of the Tiber. In Switzerland the Albula is a mountain massif and a river too. So the original meaning of this word was rock, mount, but in time it came to be associated with rivers too. To state that Albion is related to Lat. albus white looks plainly ridiculous. The same phenomenon we see in aran, valley, but also mountain, river etc. In Spain we have a valley named Aran Valley. Aran is one of the Hebrides too. Aranos>in Italy Arno. One would also benefit from a glance to Krahe's tables on the river names. Sometimes being confronted with a heavy amount of evidence of place names and of the nature of their suffixations, i.e. word formation, opens one's mind. Seeing them as IE looks purely phantastic. Vennemann has shown this language was agglutinative. In fact the problem of Indoeuropeanists is that they focus attention on the study of one word in a limited context and avoid taking into account whether this word is to be found elsewhere and what its history, phonetic changes, suffixations and lastly likely meaning could have been.

Coming to brendos, word denoting the deer (all are agreed on this as it is attested by ancient sources: Hesichios: brendon elaphos; Stephanos of Byz.: brention para' Messapiois ee tou elaphou kephalee'; Isid. Orig. XV I 49 ff.: Brundisium quod Brunda caput cervi dicitur, quod et cornua videantur et caput et lingua in positione ipsius urbis; Ennius: brunda caput cervi veteres dixere coloni) toponyms, ethnonyms and phytonyms from all over Europe and Asia Minor confirm that the word is not IE, (Alessio's examples) 1) for the frequent presence of Anarian suffixes (Brentesion/ Brundisium, Brintesia river of Veneto, now Brenta, Brentista, Cypr. brenthis/brentix a sort of lattuce, old Chiavennese brentallum with characteristic Ligurian genitive, Brentani, Frentānī, Prettanoi', Bruttātēs, Tusc. brentine; 2) most typical Medit. phonetical uncertainties found in relics, as the evolution of -nt to -nd or -nth in the Aegean area, the labial quality of the preconsonantic nasal (Brentioi/ Brettioi), the vicissitude of e/i (or the evolution of e into i, when followed by -nt, a marker of substrate in Albanian and Rumanian) whence the dark undistinguished vowel rendered as u (brendo/brunda) and morever the evolution voiced> voiceless> aspirate> spirant of the Tyrrhenic area (Frento, Frentani, frõns=fronda). Cf. also Tyrrhenic suffix -entum versus Aegean -inthos e.g. menta, minthē. The homophonous IE theme found in Greek brenthos, pride, brenthuomai , I sweel up, may have caused this fixation of the brenth- type in the Aegean area.

Derived ethnonyms: Brentioi (Dion. Perieg. 362, cf. Brentioi: ethnos en Italiai Hesichius) commonly known as Brettioi, Bruttioi, Brouttioi, in Lat. Bruttii, Brittii, Bruttiani or Bruttiates (Ennius) whence the name of the ager Brittius or Bruttium, Brettia (Polybius I 56), probably so named after a totem animal, the deer. To them correspond in Umbrain territory the Foro-brentani, in the Picenic area, to the north of the river Frento, now Fortore, the Frentani.

Same structure in the name of the Prettanoi' (Diod. V 21, 28; Strabo II 75, 117; IV 200) or Brettanoi', in Lat. Britanni or Brittanni, also as Brittones (Juv. XV 124) cf. Neoceltic Prytein, who gave their name to the Brettia (St. Byz.) or Brentia, Britannia or Brittannia. A tribe was named Carvetii (CIL VII 325) Celtic for deer from *carvos=Lat. cervus with suffix -etii like Helvetii.

In conclusion one can say that it is impossible to answer the questions posed by historical liguistics with a limited perspective. To render the idea of the issue at hands I shall use Alessio's own example: it is like saying that camelus is a Latin word. While this is correct it is also obviously wrong, since we know camelus derives from words of Near Eastern languages denoting the animal camel. Aldrasto11 (talk) 02:29, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

What risks getting totally lost here in a hurricane of possibly but not certainly related words, names, and hypothetical derivations scattered across more authors and works than you can shake a stick at, is that Albion and Hibernia are the usual names for these islands, as rendered in Latin, corresponding to the Greek forms of the names, which in some sources appear to have been hypercorrected by replacing β with ου to produce forms such as Αλουιων and Ιουερνια. And that's probably all the article needs to say, unless you want to note briefly that "Albion" may be connected with or influenced by the same root as Latin albus, meaning white, and that some early linguists connected "Hibernia" with the root of the word for "winter", which is probably a case of false etymology. Loading down the articles with numerous variations and hypothetical roots from other languages, proposed languages, proposed roots, and theories about pre-Indo-European linguistic substrata will simply confuse the reader, and if you want to discuss these in more detail, a separate article discussing each name might be a better choice; or at least, put these thoughts into a footnote that readers can access at will, and skim past if they don't want to get stuck in the minutiae, and want to get to the next section. P Aculeius (talk) 11:18, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I concur. Cagwinn (talk) 15:05, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to those who commented. I am aware of the need of being concise in an article. Just wish to remark two things. Meid , Koch etc. go for white, but in all likelihood the word did not mean white. It meant elevated place, mount etc. I think we can say it with certainty for two reasons.

1.The word has been used to denote places or objects which are not at all white. Alba Longa: the Alban hills are of a bluish grey colour. The Albula = Tiber is yellow (flavus). In Germany the Elbe too is not white. The Alps are not white (except the highest peaks when snowed).

2. Albona-Labin: this is one of the lucky cases in which we have a translation of the word we are investigating into another language. While Albona is a case of alb- + suffix denoting a town (Verona, Arona, Arrabona etc.), or more precisely a site on/above something else, its Croatian correspondent word is Labin. Now this is commonly acknowledged as a case of the lip/lib/lep/lap Med. word meaning rock. In Latium we have Alba Longa and not too far away Labicum, town destroyed by the Romans in 418 BC, gave its name to the Via Labicana: it was located on a steep hill (probably Montecompatri). We meet also the Lepini Montes, the Lipari Island, Libarna, a settlement located among steep mounts in Liguria and ethnonym Liburni, people who lived in a rocky region not far from Albona. Another way to prove that Labin means rocky place (it is in fact) is considering Lat. words lepis hare and French lapin rabbit: French received the substrate word through another medium than Lat., but the word is clearly the same, meaning animal who likes living among rocks.

A last remark from Giese's review of Hubschmid's book Sardische Studien Bern 1953: "A Celtic word can be considered of IE source only if it is known its parent word in other IE languages. Some Preceltic words have been diffused by means of Gallic. In the Celtic languages of the islands there are Preceltic elements taken up from the Preceltic dwellers (esp. in Irish); it is though important to acknowledge that the respective Celtic peoples may have borrowed words when they were still living on the continent, and that these may be common with Gallic."Aldrasto11 (talk) 10:36, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

You are misunderstanding Koch's etymology (also accepted by X. Delamarre, Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise, 2003, p. 37-38). The root is Proto-Indo-European "white", but semantically it has developed in Celtic into "clear, visible" in the Proto-Celtic derivative *albiio-, "that which is apparent/visible", i.e. the visible world (as opposed to the invisible world, i.e. the underworld, land of the dead/gods). You won't find many Celticists today who think that Albion is a non-Celtic word; its Celticity is widely accepted. We don't know how Alba Longa got it's name; ancient folk etymology accepts that it was a "long and white" town, but whose to say, really? Perhaps, as in the case of Celtic *windos "white", Latin alba could also, by extension, mean "fair, bright, holy"? Albus/alba definitely had a secondary meaning of propitious in Latin. Cagwinn (talk) 14:49, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I am aware Celticists are trying to explain everything with Celtic and IE, in Spain and Italy too. As I wrote above I think they have already failed. And going on to the extreme conclusions the castle of their imaginations will crumble. Clearly philosophic and religious speculations do not belong in good linguistics. But that may have been a much later interpretation of a word inherited from earlier dwellers, which was no longer understood in its original meaning. The case of Britain was made more tangled because in fact it looks white to people coming by sea from the continent. On the other hand it is also true that it looks an elevated land, high above the sea. That said it is simple enough to pile up instances in which Albion does not mean white even in cases of words found in Celtic or celticized areas, such as the case of Ligurian Albion Ingaunum/Intemelium I cited. Here the word obviously means town, oppidum: the semantic shift from white to oppidum is difficult, while that from elevated place, mountain to oppidum is easy as in early times towns were usually built on such sites.

As for Alba Longa the easier/more logical explanation is that this is a plural neutre: in fact (as testified by archaelogy) it was made up by several settlements scattered along the summits of the Alban Hills as the attribute Longa implies too.

But as I said the lucky case of Albona/Labin allows us to arrive to a clear decision as it supports definitely the interpretation of alb- as elevated, mountainous area. So does Labicum as a parallel to Alba L. I would also add the case of Albania that agrees very well with the meaning of rocky, elevated area and not at all with that of white or clear, visible. Now many of these instances come from places outside areas settled by Celts. Is not this a furhter proof that in Celtic the word is a loanword? In time it may have been reinterpreted along the Celtic religious ideas, as contemporary Celticists still are doing. But saying this is the real story of the word is a petitio principii.Aldrasto11 (talk) 00:25, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

But this is an argument of the sort we call OR on Wikipedia. The weight of secondary sources presented so far supports the Celtic origin. Cynwolfe (talk) 01:35, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Cynwolf's usual and typical reaction when confronted with overwhelming evidence. Claim of OR. Nothing I have written here is OR. It is all published by highly authoritative scholars, even if they may no longer be so visible in fashionable academic circles. Please just read more carefully and attentively what I contribute. Also refer to the passage from Giese's review of Hubschmid's book which I made the effort of translating here above. Read it with more attention, please.

I will add this excerpt concerning hydronym Alagon (formerly Alavon, year 1118): "We are dealing with a very ancient toponym; with sufficient certainty we can put it back at the time of the last glaciation, 8000-9000 years ago, when in Europe a language previous to the appearence of the IE languages was spoken, as Sanchez Salor remarks (E. S. S. "Extremadua y los nombres de sus lugares" Boletin de la Real Academia de Extremadura de las Letras y las Artes t. X Caceres 1999 p. 109). Moreover the word integrates a Praeindoeur. root *AL-/*AR- which is compatible with the said antiquity and able to convey a double meaning to become a oronym-hydronym: at the same time it designates the highland in which the river originates,..., the proper name Alagon hints too to the flowing waters that crossed the lands of the ancient ethnos who first named it with this appellative: river of the highlands or river of the mountain." F. J. Casillas Antunez "Los hidronimos prerromanos Alagon y Arrago" Alcantara 65 2006 p. 65.Aldrasto11 (talk) 05:15, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Before you start attacking some of our most experienced editors and telling them that they haven't been paying attention to your arguments, perhaps you should review precisely what constitutes original research. You're trying to take a bunch of sources that discuss words other than the two names at issue, and extrapolating the point you want to make about those names from what they have said about other words or names. Stated differently, you're synthesizing your own conclusions for this article. The article space needs to be limited to what can be reasonably derived from sources that actually discuss these names; it can't be turned into an extended debate over possible relationships to other hypothetical roots and their meanings, with editors giving their own opinions as to which ones are correct. That's the definition of original research. P Aculeius (talk) 12:04, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

No I am not attacking anybody, the opposite is true. It is correct to give readers all the interpretations of a word etymology and certainly that Albion means elevated land etc. is soundly founded and widely supported in scholarship. Neither am I trying to use what has been written about (supposedly) other words. But to limit discussion only to albion, this is a word that is found as such in Strabo: Albion Intemelium where it means oppidum I. and Albion Oros, mount of the Eastern Alps (none of these can be interpreted as meaning white). Unless you wish to argue that the Albion that designates Britain is another word, which would be an assumption difficult to prove. Strabo also states that the Alps were formerly known as Alb-. Nowadays Alpe means highland in Italian and Portuguese.Aldrasto11 (talk) 10:47, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

You are completely ignoring the fact that Brittonic *albii- survives as a common noun in Modern Welsh elfydd meaning "world, earth, land, country, district, neighborhood" (with no connotation of "elevation"). Cagwinn (talk) 21:48, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Neither to white (unless the religious speculations are brought in). And the semantic shift from highland to world, earth, land, country...is easy in a mountainous place such as Wales.Aldrasto11 (talk) 04:10, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Aldrasto11 says"I am aware Celticists are trying to explain everything with Celtic and IE, in Spain and Italy too", but of course this is a completely ridiculous statement without any basis in fact. Linguistics is a science and professional Celticists use the scientific method in determining the possible linguistic affiliation of place names. If a name appears non-Celtic and/or non-Indo-European (by the criteria used to make such an assessment), then it is labeled as such.Cagwinn (talk) 13:53, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I stand by what I said. Celticists themselves have chosen to do so. I would love to see them being a bit less overbearing and more objective, but this is a trend. As such it will end. I will give two instances: F. Villar at Salamanca and M. Borghi at Genova. The last wrote a book in two volumes in which he explains all the toponyms of Lombardy with Celtic. How can one even consider a work of this sort? The toponyms of Lombardy have many cases of substrate words, some very typical too. But I do not wish to bring in another issue.Aldrasto11 (talk) 10:47, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

You can stand by it all you like, but your position is clearly based on ignorance. Lombardy was anciently settled by numerous Celtic tribes - that is not supposition, but a fact. The notion that these tribes gave names in their own language to the places in which they lived is not controversial in the slightest. Cagwinn (talk) 13:32, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Doctissimi, is this conversation still going on? It seems to have served much of its purpose and run much of its course.  davidiad { t } 23:47, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

My intention was and is to end this conversation here, and I accept Davidiad's advice. This being the Anglophone WK though, I owe it to readers: 1) at least a citation: G. Alessio "Sul nome di Brindisi" p. 219 n. 33: "The name of the Island, formerly known as Albion, from Medit. alba highland..." in Archivio Storico Pugliese 1955 VIII 3. p. 211-238. 2) I must reassure them that I do not ignore Lombardy was settled (also, and lastly, before the Romans) by Celtic tribes and these gave many names to the places they settled in their own language. I will not comment further on my last interlocutor's competence in the field of toponymy, what he wrote here above gives a fairly clear measure in and by itself.Aldrasto11 (talk) 04:10, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Um, yes, it does: he's in possession of the scholarship and isn't using Wikipedia as a soapbox for constructing his own arguments. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:02, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Template:Odyssey navbox

An editor edited Template:Odyssey navbox by removing removing one book. I disagree with this edit. Opinions requested.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:23, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I think the issue is how inclusive this should be - should it include all fringe material relating to the Odyssey? Some? None? Dougweller (talk) 19:35, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

My feeling is that a template becomes less useful if it contains too many links, and that this template has passed that point. Readers want quick links to the most important subtopics. This can include links to lists and index article pages that aim to be comprehensive. There are, for instance, way too many characters in the template (that could be reduced to major characters and a link to a list article that's more comprehensive). I would pull the Study section out of the middle of the fictional/creative reimaginings: from Film to Video games, I would greatly reduce all those by linking to list articles, even if the articles had to be created. Cynwolfe (talk) 01:16, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I asked for general feedback a few threads above. I have not studied either the Odyssey or the Iliad since the 1980s and never studied the Aeneid. I am still amazed that no one made a template for these before now. I am receptive to feedback that reflects consensus. If everyone wants to gut these templates, that is fine as long as it is consensus. The character list preexisted this template. If you look, you will see that I have transcluded Template:Characters in the Odyssey. Feel free to create lists. However, my purpose in creating a navbox is to create a single-glance single-click tool. Long list often require several glances (glance, scroll, repeat) and multiple clicks. Categories also require mulitple clicks.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:40, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Please don't feel that your efforts are being discouraged. I see what you're saying about the clicks, but my question is more whether anyone will read through all the links in order to click any one of them. There's no way to prove this one way or the other. I'm just trying to think through how a reader would use the template, and how best to serve that purpose. If I'm interested in looking at video games based on the Odyssey, I might not recognize all the individual games, nor want to focus on specific ones, nor know which one to click on unless I'm looking for a specific game. (If I'm looking for a specific game, then odds are I've typed the name of that game into the search field to find it.) I might benefit more in the template from a link that says Video games based on the Odyssey, where I get some kind of overview and a comprehensive list. The principle is stated at WP:NAVBOX: Navigation templates are particularly useful for a small, well-defined group of articles; templates with a large numbers of links are not forbidden, but can appear overly busy and be hard to read and use. I don't think your specific links fail the criteria that follow this statement—their number just raises issues of how the purpose of navboxes differs from lists or categories or indices. The creation of the templates is helpful. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:17, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

First, this discussion is suppose to be about a single link. You have ignored the topic and changed it to the topic above, which was general advice on this and two other similar templates. You have yet to answer the question for this discussion. Second, templates of list are not very common. I admit that this template may go a bit far afield from the main subject. Thus, there may be consensus to remove this link and similarly remote links. Feedback is welcome. I would prefer general comments in the discussion above.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Dougweller posed the more general question of how inclusive the template was meant to be. I don't know how to exclude one link without understanding the general principles of inclusion. If you're aiming to be comprehensive rather than succinct, I'm not sure how to draw the line. Fringe theories have their own brand of notability, and if it doesn't meet notability requirements, the article shouldn't exist. So the question is ultimately whether a template should be comprehensive or limited. WP:NAVBOX suggests that nav templates aren't intended to be a comprehensive index of all possible related articles. This is where the question was posed, so this is where I attempted to learn how we can answer it. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:05, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I guess for that particular book it's a question of whether or not the navbox should include everything on Wikipedia related to the Odyssey or not. The book is only one of a gaggle of ridiculous "studies" that propose the Trojan saga and it's related myths are not Mediterranean. I wouldn't include it, but I think that it really does come down to the question of the template's scope, and I'm too busy right now to really give it significant thought. Though I will say that with these ancient epic navboxes it would be wise to clearly segregate the ancient and scholarly topics from modern adaptations and the like. Most readers who turn to Wikipedia for information about Homeric poetry will be trying to grasp a complex topic on its own terms, and sorting through the different registers of this template would not be the easiest process. Perhaps when I get the chance I'll sort out the Homer template as I'd envisioned last year and we can have a "Homeric poetry" navbox alongside "Reception of the Odyssey" and "Reception of the Iliad" navboxes that would include much of the material that you've organized.  davidiad { t } 17:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Having made hundreds of these cultural references templates for important works, this is the first time that an abundance of WP articles on related theories about the subject have showed up in my searches. Thus, I included them in the template. Yes it is highly unusual to see these in a template, but it is also highly unusual for articles to exist for them. If anyone wants to go through the templates and redesign them, I have no problem with that. What has happened is someone just yanked one academic/historical theory article out without resolving whether we should or should not be including them in these templates.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:42, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Yep, welcome to classical studies: more than 2,000 years of stuff accumulating in the Attic. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:24, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Request for comment on "Latin War (498–493 BC)"

Again, I appeal to the members of this project for some outside opinions on this article. As stated on the talk page for Latin War (498–493 BC), there is no evidence for an ongoing war between 498 and 493 BC. No ancient authority supports military operations beyond the Battle of Lake Regillus, which was a failed attempt by Lucius Tarquinius Superbus to regain the Roman kingdom, probably in 498, but according to some authorities in 496. There don't seem to have been any other battles, nor an expectation of other battles, nor is there any justification for describing Spurius Cassius Viscellinus as "the" Roman commander during this non-existent war, against unnamed Latin opponents, under unknown Latin commanders, with unknown results, not mentioned in any ancient histories. No ancient authorities state that the treaty between Rome and the Latins concluded by Cassius in 493 had anything to do with ending a war, or that Cassius led troops against the Latins then or at any other time.

This article simply infers the existence of a war from two events: the Battle of Lake Regillus, and the Foedus Cassianum. Evidently it's not the first time that's been done, but none of the increasingly large number of sources cited (most of them from web sites, and all of them giving only an overview of early Roman history) discuss how they arrived at such a conclusion or provide any evidence of additional engagements, military strategies, commanders, forces, or anything else. Without a single scholarly source that explains why the Battle of Lake Regillus is supposed to have been part of an ongoing war not mentioned by ancient historians, or why it concludes that the treaty of 493 marked the end of a war, I think we have to conclude that there isn't any evidence of such a war, and that this article shouldn't exist. P Aculeius (talk) 04:14, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I see two problems here. But as background, I do read the passage from Livy as implying a war: Consules Ser. Sulpicius M". Tullius; nihil dignum memoria actum; T. Aebutius deinde et C. Vetusius. His consulibus Fidenae obsessae, Crustumeria capta; Praeneste ab Latinis ad Romanos desciuit, nec ultra bellum Latinum, gliscens iam per aliquot annos, dilatum. A. Postumius dictator, T. Aebutius magister equitum, magnis copiis peditum equitumque profecti, ad lacum Regillum in agro Tusculano agmini hostium occurrerunt, et quia Tarquinios esse in exercitu Latinorum auditum est, sustineri ira non potuit quin extemplo confligerent. Ergo etiam proelium aliquanto quam cetera grauius atque atrocius fuit. Oatley2112, known for editorial sobriety, has pointed to Brill's New Pauly for validation (I can't actually see it online). So to me the two questions/problems are: (1) Is there sufficient info to differentiate Latin War (498–493 BC) and Battle of Lake Regillus? As they stand, the articles need to be merged, because they're nearly identical. Can Latin War (498–493 BC) be anything more than Battle of Lake Regillus + Foedus Cassianum? (2) Regardless of how one might read Livy, does the scholarship justify distinguishing this series of conflicts as a specific Latin War? I probably wouldn't be happy without CAH support for the term "First Latin War," and the relevant volume doesn't seem to use it. The current title gets around that problem somewhat. If the bit from Livy is really all we know of the series of conflicts, maybe it's just a paragraph of Background in the Battle of Lake Regillus article. Just structural thoughts. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:38, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

As usual, you see to the point much more clearly than I do. But from the Google Books snippet view of Brill's New Pauly, it doesn't appear that there are any other events, or even a starting date, as it begins the discussion immediately after the treaty with Carthage in 509 BC; and it also explicitly states that the Battle of Lake Regillus ended the war. Subsequent passages in Livy deny that open war existed in the aftermath of Lake Regillus, and the next mentions of the Latins, other than those which merely refer back to Lake Regillus, indicate that the Latins warned Rome about an impending Volscian invasion in 495, and appealed for Roman assistance against the Aequi in 494. Since both of these preceded the treaty of Cassius, I think it's impossible to state based on existing sources that the treaty ended a war between Rome and the Latins, or that there was an ongoing war at any point after Lake Regillus, and Brill's New Pauly agrees on that point, even if it suggests that war might have started at some uncertain time before the battle. For my part, I read the passage in Livy as distinguishing the other events of 499/498 from the Battle of Lake Regillus, which is all that he seems to refer to in a few later passages as the "Latin war." At least in the translation I looked at, the assertion that "war broke out with the Latins" followed the other events and directly preceded Lake Regillus. P Aculeius (talk) 14:03, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I posted a procedural proposal at the article talk page. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:41, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Euergetism

Much of the Euergetism article is practically unreadable, apparently because it seems to have been machine-translated from another language, probably French. Unfortunately, I have no expertise in this field, so I can't really do anything useful to improve this (although I did help fix up the reference to Andre Boulanger -- see the talk page.) Could someone with relevant knowledge help fact-check and tidy up this article? Thanks, -- The Anome (talk) 06:34, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I've been averting my eyes from this, but I hate it when someone leaves a comment and no one responds: yes, I would totally love to get into this topic, but simply cannot spare the time in the foreseeable future (a cliché that I love) even to do the copyediting. Please be encouraged to leave a note again saying "this is still a mess" if no one gets to it. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:06, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Orobius

Hi, I have started an AfD about the Article Orobius. Have found it while patrolling new pages and the article looks really strange to me. Thanks. --Ben Ben (talk) 23:59, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Agatharchides

I'm wondering if someone here can point me in the right direction. An issue has arisen at Female genital mutilation regarding one of the early descriptions of it, and what exactly was said. It is attributed to Agatharchides, who visited Ethiopia in the second century BCE and reported that it was practised there. I don't know whether we have the account from Agatharchides directly, or from others citing him. Strabo apparently made reference to Agatharchides' account, as did Diodorus and Photius. There is reference to it here in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1888: "They practised circumcision or a mutilation of a more serious kind."

Is anyone here able to help me track down what Agatharchides said? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:30, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Agatharchides' work is only preserved through references in later authors. Diodorus 3.32.4 says: "And they are all naked as to their bodies except for the loins, which they cover with skins; moreover, all the Trogodytes are circumcised like the Egyptians with the exception of those who, because of what they have experienced, are called "colobi"; for these alone of all who live inside the Straits have in infancy all that part cut completely off with the razor which among other peoples merely suffers circumcision." I believe Diodorus is relying upon Agatharchides for that information, but he appears to refer to male circumcision, not female. The relevant bit of Photius (p. 454 Bekker) looks identical to the Diodorus quote to me.

I'm not sure which passage of Strabo is meant. Strabo does refer extensively to Agatharchides, but when he discusses circumcision and/or genital mutilation I don't think Strabo is relying upon Agatharchides. I read through these passages very quickly, though, so I could be mistaken. Strabo 16.4.17 says: "They have winter when the Etesian winds blow (for they have rains); but the rest of the time is summer. They also go lightly clad, wear skins, and carry clubs; and they not only mutilate their bodies, but some of them are also circumcised, like the Aegyptians." It's not clear to me what source Strabo used for that quote. In another passage (16.4.5), Strabo cites Artemidorus: "Artemidorus says that the promontory on the Arabian side opposite to Deirê is called Acila; and that the males in the neighbourhood of Deirê have their sexual glands mutilated." At 16.4.9, Strabo writes: "And then to the Harbour of Antiphilus, and, above this, to the Creophagi,of whom the males have their sexual glands mutilated and the women are excised in the Jewish fashion." (Again, it's not clear to me who Strabo's source is here.) Another reference to genital "mutilation" is at Strabo 16.2.37: "His successors for some time abided by the same course, acting righteously and being truly pious towards God; but afterwards, in the first place, superstitious men were appointed to the priesthood, and then tyrannical people; and from superstition arose abstinence from flesh, from which it is their custom to abstain even to‑day, and circumcisions and excisions and other observances of the kind." (This is about the Jews, not the Ethiopians, and again I don't know what source Strabo relies upon.)

I hope that's helpful. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:53, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

This is very helpful, Akhilleus, thank you. The issue is twofold: (1) what they called it, and whether they referred to the male and female versions with the same word (do you happen to know which words they used in the original?); and (2) what we can say, if anything, about the procedure's origins based on these texts.

The disputed paragraph of the article (which relies on sources who are not classicists) is:

After having visited Ethiopia in the second century B.C., during the reign of the Kingdom of Aksum, the Greek historian Agatharchides likewise asserted that the people he encountered there already practised female circumcision in the same traditional manner as in Egypt. In 25 BCE, another Greek geographer, Strabo (c. 64 BCE – c. 23 CE), similarly described the practice among the Colobi, an Aksumite group. He, in turn, recorded the custom when he traveled to Egypt the same year.

SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:33, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Just to elaborate, this is the main source I'm trying to check: Hrdy, Sarah Blaffer. The Woman That Never Evolved, Harvard University Press, 1999 [1981], p. 183: "The Greek historian and geographer Agatharchides, who visited Ethiopia in the second century B.C., noted that the people there excised their women in the Egyptian tradition." Hrdy writes in her footnote 46: Agatharchides' observations are cited by Diodorus and Strabo. These and other early observations are summarized in Carl Gosta Widstrand, "Female Infibulation," Studia Ethnographica Upsaliensia, 20 (varia I), 95–122 (1964)."

So the question is what did Diodorus and Strabo say that she and Widstrand are basing this on, and why did one or both think it came from Agatharchides? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:46, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I'd expect some recent comment on these precise questions, from the classical point of view, to be in the commentary of:

• Stanley M. Burstein, translator and editor. Agatharchides of Cnidus, On the Erythraean Sea. (Works issued by the Hakluyt Society. Second series, no. 172.) London: Hakluyt Society, 1989

which, sadly, I don't have at home. I have looked at the book, about 25 years ago. In his collection of the remains of Agatharchides (I noticed because it happened to matter to me at the time) Burstein includes, as such editors often do, passages that appear to come from Agatharchides but aren't acknowledged (e.g., probably, the passage of Strabo cited above). So (probably) it depends on Burstein and his predecessors whether one should conclude that Strabo, here, was working from Agatharchides or was not. The book is in English, not Greek, so anyone who's near an academic library would be able to check it. Andrew Dalby 08:39, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Andrew. I've been reading around secondary sources today, and I find it impossible to judge what is purported to have originated with Agatharchides and what from Strabo (from his own travels). Also, apart from one passage, there's no indication they're talking about female mutilation. The article currently says: "Agatharchides (c. 215–after 145 BCE) encountered people in Ethiopia in the second century BCE who practised it, according to Diodorus and Strabo (c. 64 BCE – c. 23 CE), and Strabo reported it after visiting Egypt in 25 BCE." But I don't know whether that's accurate, and another editor keeps trying to elaborate based on non-expert sources who seem to have it wrong. The footnote currently reads this like this.

Can someone here help me to write this word (with the Greek letters)? "Note that the Greek verb ... " SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:58, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Focusing on just this one passage from Geography of Strabo, 16.4.9:

"After the Altars of Conon one comes to the Melinus Harbour, above which lie a Fortress of Coraüs, as it is called, and a Hunting-ground of Coraüs and another fortress and several hunting-grounds. And then to the Harbour of Antiphilus, and, above this, to the Creophagi [meat-eaters], of whom the males have their sexual glands mutilated and the women are excised in the Jewish fashion."

Is this Strabo talking about his own travels, or is he reporting what someone else wrote (Agatharchides, or Artemidorus of Ephesos about Agatharchides)? That is, is it first hand, second hand, or third hand? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:04, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

That'd be περιτέμνειν, peritemnein or, if you want the accent in the transliteration, peritémnein.  davidiad { t } 23:55, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks! SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:58, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Strabo travelled a fair bit himself, but his task was to write a comprehensive geographical survey for Roman administrators. Unless he says "I saw this" or "X writes this" (as he often does), one doesn't know for certain which is the case. My first thought, reading the passage you quote and having read a good bit of Strabo already, would be that there's no sign of personal observation here: this is what some source, essentially a travel guide, says.

The translation you're quoting is by H. L. Jones. I think he may have misunderstood an admittedly over-concise expression. I would take the intended sense of the Greek words to be that the women are circumcised: that's the ordinary meaning of peritemnein and the intention, in adding the adverb Ioudaikos "Jewishly", is to confirm that that's the intended meaning. (Nothing is being said here about Jews, they are merely mentioned to confirm the intended meaning of the word peritemnein.) "Excised" is an error (in my view): but then H. L. Jones wasn't an expert on this subject, any more than I am, and one doesn't look to a translation -- certainly not to an old Loeb Classical Library translation -- for technical accuracy in specialised areas. Andrew Dalby 09:51, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Andrew, this is very helpful (especially about "Jewishly"; I've been reading several sources who were wondering what was meant). SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:33, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Herodotus

There's another passage I'm looking for, this time from Herodotus. According to Lilian Passmore Sanderson (1981, p. 127): "Herodotus stated that Egyptians, Phoenicians, Hittites and Ethiopians practised female excision five hundred years before the birth of Christ." But I can only see Sanderson on snippet view, so I can't see her source. I've checked through all the books of The Histories (for excision, circumcision, Ethiopians) and nothing is coming up. Would anyone here know where to look for this? He does talk about circumcision in Book II, but no indication that I can see that he means women: "Dough they knead with their feet; but they mix mud, and even take up dirt, with their hands. They are the only people in the world- they at least, and such as have learnt the practice from them- who use circumcision." SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:56, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

That seems bogus. This article makes several (non-FGM) references to Herodotus Bk. 2 on its first page and then clearly states on its second page: "the first extant literary mention of it is by the Greek geographer Strabo." (Email me if you need a copy of this article in its entirety.) Huebner 2009 cited at Religious views on female genital mutilation would be another source to look at. Wareh (talk) 01:03, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Wareh, we already use that source in the article; it's a good source for this issue. The reason I'm confused (despite reading Knight) is that so many of the scholarly sources (not classicists, but anthropologists and others) make the claim that Herodotus wrote about this. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:09, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

These are the entries I found on circumcision through the index of the Landmark translation [3]

• The Egyptians practice circumcision, while all other peoples (except for those who have learned it from the Egyptians) let their genitals remain as they are at birth. 2.26.3
• [The Egyptians] circumcise their men for the sake of cleanliness, esteeming purity above beauty. 2.27.2
• of all peoples, only the Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians have practiced circumcision from the very earliest time. 2.104.2 The Phoeniciains and the Syrians of Palestine agree that they have learned this practice fromo the Egyptians. And the Syrians who live around the River Thermodon, with their neighbors the Makrones claim they learned it only recently from the Colchians. These are the only peoples that practice circumcision, and it is clear that they do it the same way as the Egyptinas. 2.104.3 But of the Egyptians and the Ethiopians, I cannot say which of the two learned it from the other, since it is evidently a very ancient practice. 2.104.4

So Herodotus only appear to write about male circumcision. Fornadan (t) 04:52, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

That's great, Fornadan, many thanks. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:09, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

It may be worth adding that Egyptian origins were a bit of an obsession with Herodotus; also that he was evidently such a nice fellow that he tended to get the answers he wanted. Therefore, a statement like "the Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine agree that they have learned this practice from the Egyptians" is just the kind of Herodotean claim on which you wouldn't rely. All that having been said, he often gets amazingly close to the truth. Andrew Dalby 09:52, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm finding myself having to search through ancient texts to resolve the issue of just two sentences in the FGM article. :) It's amazing how many academics have just repeated these claims – Herodotus said this, Agatharchides said that – without checking. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:09, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Warning: original research follows :) I hadn't looked fully at the question of Strabo's source till now. Now that I do look, there is no overt evidence in Strabo's whole work that he even knew Agatharchides' book on the Erythraean Sea. He mentions Agatharchides twice. Once, under Cnidus, because that's where A. was born, and at that point he names A.'s other two books, which he calls Persica and Assyrica. Then again, as regards the name of the Erythraean Sea: but Agatharchides' views on this were attributed by him to a Persian informant, so one can't easily judge whether Strabo on this is quoting the Persica (which perhaps he knew) or On the Erythraean Sea (which perhaps he didn't know). And that's it: at any rate, he doesn't cite Agatharchides anywhere at all for any real geographical information.

This being so, the strong presumption (in my view) is that Strabo in the particular passage we're talking about was using Artemidorus -- whom he used and cited frequently. The reason (in my view) why he doesn't cite Artemidorus here is that, to him, this is uncontroversial geographical information: like an early Wikipedian, he therefore has no need to cite sources. The circumcision matter is of no importance to him: he and Artemidorus mention it because it is the one outstanding ethnographical detail that identifies this tribe to those readers who might have heard of them already.

So I think Akhilleus's statement at the head of this thread that Strabo used and cited Agatharchides frequently is a mistake [but see next paragraph!] On the other hand, Akhilleus is surely right that Diodorus Siculus (who scarcely ever cites sources by name) got his information from Agatharchides on the grounds that the information matches Photius (who was writing a report specifically on Agatharchides' book).

The question remains, did Artemidorus (Strabo's immediate source) use Agatharchides On the Erythraean Sea? Burstein, as reviewed in the Classical Review by Steven Sidebotham, is apparently certain that he did. The whole passage of Strabo, 16.4.5-20, is translated by Burstein and treated as a fragment of Agatharchides. Sidebotham tacitly accepts this as valid -- at least, he doesn't dispute it. (I have the CR review -- New Series, Vol. 41, No. 2 (1991), pp. 475-476 -- via JSTOR and could send you a pdf.) It's also pointed out in this review that Agatharchides was working from 3rd c. BC reports of official missions and "paid scant attention to reports of contemporary eye witnesses". This suggests Hardy may be wrong to say that Agatharchides visited Ethiopia at all. Andrew Dalby 11:59, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

This is great stuff, Andrew, thank you. I don't have Burstein yet, but it's on its way. I have access to JSTOR so I can look up Sidebotham. It's very kind of you to help like this. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:46, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Agatharchides, as far as I can tell, talked about, referred only to men; he said pantes, all of them did it (circumcision) -like the Egyptians did- BUT without specifically-explicitly mentioning women, something that, at least imo, unless the Egyptian custom included women and was widely known to the Greeks to have been so and unless we have sources concurrent or prior to Agatharchides attesting this Greek knowledge, should be in this case a sine qua non for someone to translate and/or interpret this passage(s) on its own as referring also to female circumcision; in other words and imo this passage(s) on its own, by itself, can not in any way be regarded as constituting a description of female circumcision.
But I may be wrong so you might want to also consult other people and especially experts; I'm only an amateur...
You can read the quoted passage (row 10-17) and one more (row 33-40) here.
Btw I've done a quick search in all the rest of the Agatharchides' book-excerpts for some other passage about circumcision but could find none.Thanatos|talk 00:49, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for this; it's very helpful. Some of this material (that Herodotus and Agatharchides wrote about female circumcision, and that there's evidence of it on mummies) appears to have originated with an American writer, Fran Hosken, who wrote a report about FC in 1979. It seems that several academics repeated what Hoskens wrote without checking, and so now it circulates as fact on the Web. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:09, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

1. You're welcome.Mind you,

• I have to say this just to be clear cause I don't know whether you know Greek (or in this case Latin), these are excerpts; the name(s) to the left of the text denotes the author from whom the text is taken; i.e. in this page Photius and Diodorus while others (e.g. Ptolemy) are being mentioned only at the footnotes below,
• Burstein's book, as it's more recent, would be preferable but I can't find it anywere on the web (for free); so, well I guess, if you or someone else can't get access to it you'll have to make do with the old one I've provided a link to...
• I have to repeat you have imo to consult with more knowledgeable people or preferably experts.

2.Just to help you in your quest a little more (or anyway provide links that might help others help you):

• results to searching for Agatharchides at the Open library here , at the Internet Archive here.
• whence this is I guess something similar to the one I've already shown to you.Sorry but can't go through it; the calligraphic and ligature writing is very beautiful but a pain in the ass to read and I anyway have not any more time available (perhaps others could help).
• You might also want to try these two volumes, as they're free, online and include English translations; who knows, they might help...

P.S. Btw, I don't know if you know this, you don't have to read the linked to texts online; unlike google books, you can download books from the Internet Archive and the affiliated Open Library without doing anything more like e.g. installing software.

Thanatos|talk 05:04, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Queer

A.O. Scott calls Gatz "the Trimalchio of West Egg" in his review of the movie, leading to this, but not a single edit?  davidiad { t } 23:18, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Battle of Fabricia

Not particularly important, but I just found this rather humorous addition to Fabricia (gens): http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fabricia_%28gens%29&diff=554803511&oldid=542596528 I thought perhaps some of the other editors might enjoy the creativity, seeing as I quickly reverted it, and it would otherwise have gone unappreciated. P Aculeius (talk) 01:54, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

χα χα χα.  davidiad { t } 02:35, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Glaucus vs Glaux

Please comment on this.Thanx.Thanatos|talk 23:02, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Ancient Roman architecture

… was selected (who knows how or why?) on May 6 as "today's article for improvement for a period of one week". I didn't even notice this till now. Evidently when this occurs editors are supposed to drop what they're doing and descend en masse with all the relevant sources loaded in the carts. (It takes me a week to make modest but solid improvements to articles about obscure Roman festivals, let alone "ancient Roman architecture".) I've found, anyway, that serious work on art and architecture articles requires visits to physical libraries, since even if the books are available in preview online—and they often aren't—the images in the best sources are under copyright and not viewable, so you can't see what you're doing. Just FYI. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:07, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Selene: comments?

I've more or less finished a complete overhaul of Selene. All comments, concerns welcome. I don't make announcements like this — but after reading this by Davidiad, I've been inspired to try to work more collaboratively ;-) Paul August ☎ 21:24, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Did some general editing today to shorten sentences, provide additional links, a few notes with respect to epithets and connections with other deities and (I hope) improve consistency and readability. Tried to keep your general structure, which seems very good, but merged alternate names and etymology into a new section. See if you agree with this result. P Aculeius (talk) 15:21, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree with nearly all of your edits. The Lead reads better, the organizational changes make sense, the overall copyediting has improved readability. I much appreciate your kind attention! I do have some questions which I need to think more about. Concerning one issues, you might want to read this discussion ;-) Paul August ☎ 17:12, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

I've edited some of your edits ;-) I'd be happy to discuss any of these. And thanks again for all you improvements. Paul August ☎ 01:07, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

No major complaints, except for the chariot paragraph. The part about Selene's chariot being drawn by snow-white horses, here cited to Ovid, should go in the first sentence, instead of at the end. But I agree with leaving the variant where the chariot is drawn by kyne at the end. I think it would read better as "oxen or bulls" than "cattle," since reviewing the sources cited in the article it doesn't look like "cows" were intended. I would eliminate the reference to the chariot being drawn across the heavens "each night," because of course the moon doesn't rise at sunset and set at dawn. It's as likely to be in the sky in the daytime as at night, even if you don't notice it, and the Greeks knew that, even if some of the more romantic writers conveniently forgot. P Aculeius (talk) 02:23, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree that "each night" is problematic, so I've removed it as you suggest (though I liked the sound of the previous sentence better). I've also changed "cattle" to "oxen or bulls". I haven't moved the description of her horses as "Snow-white" to the first sentence yet. Can you say why you think it ought to go there? Are there other mentions of her horses being white? That Ovid cite is the only one I'm aware of. Paul August ☎ 22:10, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I just think it reads better describing the horses at the same time as mentioning them, instead of saving it as a detail for later, and lumping it together with the alternative tradition that they were bulls or oxen. As for a citation, the two Ovid references are all I've seen for the color specifically mentioned; the others named in the article don't specify. BTW, the external source for the DGRBM seems to insert an apostrophe in the title where none appears in the original. It should be "Selene," not "Sele'ne." I'm sure it's for pronunciation, but if you look at the actual pages in any of the versions I've seen (and I have a printed copy), there's no mark there. P Aculeius (talk) 14:17, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I've changed "Sele'ne" to "Selene". If Ovid's description of the horses as "Snow-white" isn't common, then I'd rather not move it to the first sentence. Paul August ☎ 18:20, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Menae, Menai?

Are there any ancient sources which say that Selene's fifty daughters by Endymion were called the "Menai" or "Menae" (see Theoi.com "MENAI"). I do find two modern sources which say this: Westmorland, Ancient Greek Beliefs p. 103, and Judika Illes, Encyclopedia of Spirits p. 385, but I wonder where they are getting this from. See also our Menae. Paul August ☎ 11:53, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The latter two sources, while very recent, aren't scholarly at all; the first proposes that Oceanus and Tethys shouldn't have had so many sons and daughters, because the Guinness Book of World Records lists sixty-nine children as the record born to one woman; then justifies the mythological attribution of all the river gods and Oceanides to Tethys because she was "of Titanic size." The second source describes the mythology of Endymion immediately after an article on the deification of Elvis... neither book cites sources or shows any evidence of scholarship. They were probably compiled from other books on mythology combined with the authors' own opinions.

The Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology doesn't have an article on the Menae per se, although the article here points to the page containing the brief article "Mene," which elsewhere is equated with an alternative name of Selene. So I think this citation on our page is erroneous, as the cited article probably refers to Selene, rather than the Menae. Harper's Dictionary of Classical Literature and Antiquities doesn't make the connection between Selene and the Menae explicit under "Selene", but it does state under "Endymion" that his fifty daughters represented the months of the Olympic calendar. However, unlike the DGRBM, it doesn't provide a lot of in-line citations to ancient sources. PW makes this identification under "Luna" where it cites to Philipp August Böckh (on Pindar and/or the Olympics?) and Karl Otfried Müller (on the Dorians?). That's pretty weighty scholarship, and then of course as these are deities of months, they'd almost have to be daughters of Selene, and the significance of the number 50 in each case further cements the relationship. In any case I think it's pretty solid for Wikipedia, although I might go to the trouble of citing to said authorities just for those who want to go the extra mile. P Aculeius (talk) 14:17, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I don't have much confidence in the three sources I mention above. I had found the entries in DGRBM and Harper's, you mention above. But what is "PW"? Paul August ☎ 18:04, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

PW's Pauly–Wissowa. I don't have access to that volume of the old Pauly—Wikisource hasn't gotten there and I'm having trouble finding it on Google Books—, but I assume that by "PW makes this identification under ..." P Aculeius means the identification of Selene and Endymion's daughters as lunar deities, not as a group referred to as "Menai". I suspect that this is another case of Theoi.com's inventing a Greek term for an ancient concept that has in turn become a Wikipedia headword. After a cumbersome TLG search I'm pretty sure that there is no such name used for them in extant Greek literature, and a JSTOR search for menae or menai + Endymion yields no results.  davidiad { t } 18:26, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Davidiad. That was my suspicion. If no reliable source can be found naming the fifty daughters this, then I think we need to delete Menae. Paul August ☎ 18:37, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I just redirected it to Selene#Endymion. A lazy fix since I don't want to figure out what aspects of the few pages that linked to article are residue of Menae and what actually derives from scholarly discussions of the daughters of Selene and Endymion as lunar deities.  davidiad { t } 18:41, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

(ec) I see that you have boldly redirected Menae to Selene#Endymion (making the above discussion slightly confusing ;-) But if this is an invented term by Theoi.com, then the article still needs to go. Paul August ☎ 18:49, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Alright, I'll be a big boy and figure out those other two links to Menae, so you can feel free to revert me and delete the page.  davidiad { t } 18:51, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

You beat me to Pandia, so all the links are gone. You have it within you power and discretion to delete Menae, right? I'd say it'd be uncontroversial to do so.  davidiad { t } 18:56, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I've undone your redirect for now. Before starting any deletion process, I would like to have P Aculeius confirm your assumption regarding the PW article. Paul August ☎ 19:17, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

What I think we should do depends on one thing: are the months of the Olympic calendar known as "Menae/Menai?" If so, then keep the article as it's a fair inference that the children of Selene and Endymion were in fact the Menae. PW and Harper's seem to agree on that. But if the name "Menae/Menai" for the months of the Olympic calendar is a modern interpolation, then the article should probably go, or be retitled. P Aculeius (talk) 00:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Those months were just months, and the plural of month (μείς) is μῆνες. The plural of μήνη isn't attested from antiquity at all. I'm not sure I follow what you're reporting about PW: is a name given to the daughters of Selene and Endymion? Harper's Dictionary doesn't.  davidiad { t } 00:27, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

As far as I could tell, PW didn't name them under "Luna" and there's no entry corresponding to "Menae" or "Menai." But this is from an older edition, which you can view at Internet Archive. See German Wikipedia for links to all of the oldest volumes: Real-Encyclopädie der classischen Alterthumswissenschaft (1837–1852). The current ones (not Brill's New Pauly) aren't as easy to locate, but I suspect there might be a few volumes on-line. What I'm saying is that the article in PW and Harper's clearly states that the daughters of Selene and Endymion represent the months of the Olympiad. The question is whether those months were collectively known as the "Menae" or "Menai," or anything else. If there's no evidence of a name associated with those months, and no source to apply the name to the daughters of Selene and Endymion, then the article is erroneously titled. I'll poke around and see if I can find any more. P Aculeius (talk) 02:49, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for this, P Aculeius. You have to love the old German typefaces. Nope, those months weren't collectively known as anything except old-fashioned months, and the only mention of the daughters of Selene and Endymion is Pausanias 5.1.4, "The Moon, they say, fell in love with this Endymion and bore him fifty daughters." This seems to be why we're spinning our wheels a bit: a single ancient source was spun into a logical cultic reconstruction by two giants of 19th-century continental scholarship, and we're trying to chase down references to disprove Theoi.com's glib naming convention. The identification of the daughters of Endymion with the months of the Olympiad makes a lot of sense, and is the sort of sense that would be found in the 19th and early 20th centuries, but it appears to be missing from recent scholarship. I've been able to get to the Müller (it is in Die Dorier, there he just floats the identification, citing Böckh); it also turns up, unsurprisingly, in The Golden Bough. I think there might be enough reason to mention the connection between the Olympiad and the daughters mentioned by Pausanias in the Selene and Endymion articles, though I'd like to see scholarship that's post-Frazier, and post-Ritualist, too, if possible. But the connection would really need to be made with care and without giving undue weight. These daughters did not, in any event, have a Greek or Latin name. I think the article should probably be deleted since the lunar–Olympic topic is better suited to mention briefly in the parents' articles. If it were to stay, the article would have to be moved to "Daughters of Selene and Endymion".  davidiad { t } 04:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I tried to locate a later edition of PW but failed for the volume containing M. I did find a later edition for Endymion at Internet Archive; there the font is Roman, but as far as I can tell there's still no name for the daughters of Selene and Endymion. Of course I was skimming, since my German is next to non-existent and I have to rely on my ability to spot Greek and Latin names and the few German words I can recognize... so it might be worth a closer look. And of course if anyone has access to the volume with M, that might be a good place to check.

Failing evidence of the name "Menae" or "Menai" for the goddesses or the months they represented, I agree that the article needs to be retitled or its contents simply moved to articles such about Selene, Endymion, Months, and Olympiads. I don't think "daughters of Selene and Endymion" is a good title if it can possibly be avoided; nobody will look for it there. But without any other attested name or more logical title, that would have to do. If it comes down to that, I'll agree with eliminating the article entirely, and including the verifiable contents in other articles. I do believe that the identification of the daughters with the months is probably solid enough to state as "apparently" rather than "probably," but would disagree with characterizing it as merely "possible," which would imply much more uncertainty than the scholarship suggests. P Aculeius (talk) 04:25, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I missed the fact that Paul's already handled this well, and that Mayerson handbook in the citation is sound. The connection is also made in this from the Blackwell Companion to Greek Religion, which is a bit more confident than Mayerson, so your point about "apparently" v. "possibly" is well taken. I like the author's use of "informs" in his description of the relationship: it's positivistic and timid at the same time.  davidiad { t } 04:43, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Davidiad for the Davidson article from Blackwell Companion to Greek Religion, I've added a cite to that to Selene. Given the sources cited (and being conservative) I'm still not convinced that "possibly" ought to be strengthened to "apparently". I don't read Davidson's "informed" as necessarily implying that. (By the way, does your comment that the "Mayerson handbook in the citation is sound" imply some doubt about the other cites given in that same note: Seffert, "Endymion" p. 213; Cashford, p. 137? I have no idea really, how much weight we ought to be giving to such sources.) Paul August ☎ 11:26, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I see Davidson's finite, transitive and in persona loquens of the scholar "informed" as more demonstrative than Mayerson's "some scholars see ...", but he doesn't go as far as saying the daughters represent the months of the Olympiad. But I'm probably reading to much into brow twitches. Seyffert's fine, though it seems unnecessary to have a popular 19th-century dictionary next to the more recent sources, on of which is specialized. The Cashford gets my heckles up a bit, as looks like some pretty under researched comparatist jive that not only quotes Frazer, but seems to take over some of his spirit. But that might just be me. davidiad { t } 12:49, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

OK. I can live with unnecessary, so I won't remove Seyffert, but you or others should feel free to do so. As for Cashford, yes I share your qualms, the only benfit I see is the informative (for me) details concerning how the number 50 is arrived at, but again I would have no objections for removing this cite, notice though that I've mentioned Cashford elsewhere in the article: "For the close association between the crescent moon and horns see Cashford".Paul August ☎ 13:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Based on the above discussion, I've renamed our article "Menae" to Mene (goddess), rewriting it accordingly, using the only source I'm aware of, the DGRBM entry: "Mene". That leaves the article with little content and no incoming links, not ideal. The DGRBM article cites "August. De Civ. Dei, 7.2" which says:

"But there is also the goddess Mena, who presides over the menses; though the daughter of Jupiter, ignoble nevertheless. And this province of the menses the same author [Varro], in his book on the select gods, assigns to Juno herself, who is even queen among the select gods; and here, as Juno Lucina, along with the same Mena, her stepdaughter, she presides over the same blood."

Not sure what to make of this. DGRBM gives three other sources which I find puzzling: HH 12.1; Apollonius of Rhodes, 3.533, 4.55. I find no mention of "Mene" in either HH 12.1, or Apollon. 3.533 (am I missing something here?) and the mention of "Mene" I find in Apollon. 4.55 seems to be a reference to Selene herself, see for example the Seaton translation: pp. 298–299). So I'm wondering what we really have here? Paul August ☎ 16:41, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that, too, when I was poking around. The first AR ref. is ἄστρα τε καὶ μήνης ἱερὰς ... κελεύθους, "stars and paths of the holy moon"; if we wanted to capitalize it, this would still just be another name for Selene. The second is certainly Selene. The Homeric Hymn reference is actually to the hymn to Selene, the only occurence of Mene as a proper noun in early Greek hexameters. I guess Smith uses an older numbering system or, more likely, that's a typo: in the modern corpus the hymn to Selene is no. 32, not 12. I think I've read Cynwolfe on these one off gods in Augustine at some point: maybe she has some insight. We'd need some scholarly coverage of Augustine's Mena to warrant an article, and Smith is defective on this.  davidiad { t } 18:12, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Mysterious vandalism

Can someone solve the mystery at Talk:Demeter#Question? I'm not seeing the vandalistic phrase in edit mode either. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:04, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

WHOOP WHOOP

Queer. I've never seen that happen before. Fixed now.  davidiad { t } 15:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

But where was it? Why didn't it show up in edit mode? Cynwolfe (talk) 15:46, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

For some reason Cluebot's reversion of that vandalism, though the edit was completed and logged, didn't trigger the server to rebuild the page, so when you tried to edit, you would get the current, but undisplayed, version. If anyone had made an edit to anything else on the page, WOOP WOOP would probably have disappeared, since this would have triggered the rebuild.  davidiad { t } 15:52, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. The only time I've seen anything that looked similar, a template was involved: the template page had been edited, but the vandalism had been made outside the template box, so it appeared on the page as a stray phrase. When you opened the article page, you couldn't see it. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:14, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Bacchae

Should Bacchae redirect to maenad or The Bacchae? Cynwolfe (talk) 00:00, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I'd say to the play. Bacche can redirect to maenad if it wants to. (I'd rather The Bacchae redirect to Bacchae, anyway.)  davidiad { t } 00:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Agreed with Davidiad. The preferable action would be to redirect The Bacchae to Bacchae, with a hatnote for readers seeking information about maenads. As a second choice, Bacchae (play) or Bacchae (tragedy) or Bacchae (Euripedes), with Bacchae perhaps becoming a disambiguation page. P Aculeius (talk) 00:24, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

OK, that's what I thought too, but wasn't feeling bold. Cynwolfe (talk) 00:37, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

File:Mars Statue Wareswald.jpg

File:Mars Statue Wareswald.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 07:07, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Haven't spotted the source of the original yet. Does this qualify for copyright in the first place, if it's a faithful photographic reproduction of an ancient artwork? I'm not sure that this is, however. German Wikipedia has this photograph uploaded to their Creative Commons by the copyright holder. If the one here is deleted, I think the image from German Wikipedia could be substituted, and is more likely to be a faithful image of the statuette. P Aculeius (talk) 12:50, 20 May 2013 (UTC)