{{archive top|1=No consensus to remove this item from ITN/R at this time. [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] ([[User talk:The Rambling Man|talk]]) 16:11, 3 December 2015 (UTC)}}
As {{U|Nergaal}} is disinclined to do anything productive about these recurring items other than unhelpfully tag them with an erroneous {{tl|fact}} template, here we are. Does this item belong at ITNR? [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] ([[User talk:The Rambling Man|talk]]) 19:22, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
As {{U|Nergaal}} is disinclined to do anything productive about these recurring items other than unhelpfully tag them with an erroneous {{tl|fact}} template, here we are. Does this item belong at ITNR? [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] ([[User talk:The Rambling Man|talk]]) 19:22, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
*'''Remove''' I see no evidence of the last four years being highlighted at ITN, at least nothing on the talkpages. If someone can point me to diffs where this was featured at ITN I'd be inclined to reconsider. [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] ([[User talk:The Rambling Man|talk]]) 20:45, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
*'''Remove''' I see no evidence of the last four years being highlighted at ITN, at least nothing on the talkpages. If someone can point me to diffs where this was featured at ITN I'd be inclined to reconsider. [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] ([[User talk:The Rambling Man|talk]]) 20:45, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
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*:I think the problem is the article choice. The main season articles are what usually gets nominated, but covering an entire year requires a great deal of effort. For other NA sports, we usually have a playoff or final series article to post, which is both more focused and easier to write/reference. For something like the [[2016 Sprint Cup season]], the followers of NASCAR would be well served to continually update and reference the article throughout the season. At that point, an ITN pass on quality would be a cakewalk. [[User:Resolute|Reso]][[User Talk:Resolute|lute]] 15:58, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
*:I think the problem is the article choice. The main season articles are what usually gets nominated, but covering an entire year requires a great deal of effort. For other NA sports, we usually have a playoff or final series article to post, which is both more focused and easier to write/reference. For something like the [[2016 Sprint Cup season]], the followers of NASCAR would be well served to continually update and reference the article throughout the season. At that point, an ITN pass on quality would be a cakewalk. [[User:Resolute|Reso]][[User Talk:Resolute|lute]] 15:58, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
*::We made it work in 2015, so I have confidence for next and subsequent years. --[[User:Dweller|Dweller]] ([[User talk:Dweller|talk]]) 16:09, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
*::We made it work in 2015, so I have confidence for next and subsequent years. --[[User:Dweller|Dweller]] ([[User talk:Dweller|talk]]) 16:09, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
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There seems to be no evidence that there was ever any consensus to add this to ITNR, nor is there any clear record of it being featured in ITN. Does it merit a place at ITNR? The Rambling Man (talk) 11:54, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Remove. I see this covered in the news but I don't think it is as much as the Ryder Cup. It also seems too new(which is why it lacks the coverage and prestige). The nature of the competition also seems odd (US versus the world minus Europe). 331dot (talk) 11:32, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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[Closed] Suggestion to add LPGA grand slams to ITN/R
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Comment. Without opining on the merits of this idea, I think we should finish giving the ITNR list a good review before adding to it. 331dot (talk) 22:07, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support The LPGA is increasingly big - the majors get considerable international media coverage. This will also help address the systemic bias in terms of gender in our coverage of sports events. In reply to 331dot, I see no reason our review of the ITN/R can't involve additions as well as removals - I'm sure we are capable of doing more than one thing at a time. Neljack (talk) 01:46, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the systemic bias is completely ours, but that of the media specifically and society more broadly. Women's sports don't usually have the news coverage and fan base of those played by men. 331dot (talk) 12:09, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. a) As far as I am aware, none of these events have ever been successfully nominated at ITN/C. Try that first. b) We have more than enough golf entries on ITNR as it is. Adding these too would give it more entries than any other sport, which doesn't seem justified to me. c) Unfortunately the fan and media attention given to these events is far below the corresponding men's majors (which are also open to women). d) The articles on the 2015 instances of these events are all no-where near ITN standard, consisting of results tables only. That indicates a lack of editor interest in the topic. Modest Geniustalk12:02, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per the reasons Modest Genius states. I would stress that not being ITNR does not mean that the event is prohibited from ITN and any of the suggested events can be nominated through the regular process. 331dot (talk) 12:09, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral but effectively oppose for now. I'd like to see at least one of these go through the regular ITNC process so that the extent of news coverage can be judged (as well as the interest of editors in improving the relevant articles). Then we can see whether ITNR is the way forward. BencherliteTalk12:26, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment on ModestGenuis' points b) if there are too many golf events on ITN/R then maybe some of the men's golf events need to be proposed for deletion e.g. Ryder Cup and Presidents Cup which are on ITN/R in addition to the 4 men's gold grand slams?? In addition, there are other sports on the list with nearly as many entries - motorsports for example has 8 stories per year. c) the men's grand slams are technically open to women but it's almost impossible for women to achieve entry to them - the Masters for example is invite-only to the top 50 golfers in the Official World Golf Ranking, which is a system for ranking male golfers (LPGA wins are not counted when calculating the rankings). d) Claiming "lack of editor interest" is a circular argument. Maybe the reason for lack of editor interest in women's golf articles is that those editors look at Wikipedia and think it's not a place which values women's sport - given the very low number/quality of articles on women's sport and the lack of exposure on the main page for example - and don't bother writing here about it? What would happen if there was lots of women's sport in Wikipedia, I wonder, would that encourage/attract more writers to add content? Might be well worth the experiment of putting up some women's sport in order to see if that encourages more to be written. (In fact this does happen with ITN stories currently, brief articles are put up and once they are on ITN they attract attention and people develop them). MurielMary (talk) 07:49, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@MurielMary: I would reiterate what I said in my post above; I would highly suggest that you bring up these events at ITNC when the time comes. Being on ITNR means that the community has decided that the event is always notable- which isn't necessarily the case here. Wanting to increase coverage of women's sports is a laudable goal, but this isn't the place to do that, ITNC is. 331dot (talk) 11:26, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@331dot: As far as I can see, there is no mention in the ITN/R criteria that an event must first be nominated and accepted on ITN/C before being nominated and accepted to ITN/R. That is your personal response to how to deal with this suggestion, not the actual policy of ITN/R. ITN/R can most certainly "be a place to increase coverage of women's sport" if that is agreed by consensus. MurielMary (talk) 08:11, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@MurielMary: I did not claim it was a policy; I was merely stating the reality of the situation. Generally a run through ITNC gives a good idea about the event's notability and how it is received by the community. 331dot (talk) 11:15, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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NBA Finals, the only recurring national basketball tournament?
I wanted to propose other playoffs from other nations. However, there aren't good quality articles covering every annual playoffs. I also wanted to propose removal of NBA Finals, widely covered and most anticipated recurring basketball tournament in the US. In fact, nomination on this year's event met some opposition, but it was posted anyway because... it's part of ITN/R. However, I checked past events, and they have been posted with usually unanimous support. I checked British Basketball League and Chinese Basketball Association, and the playoffs weren't well covered or noticeable. What shall I do? --George Ho (talk) 06:37, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There are plenty of other national or regional tourneys on the list , like the World Series, Japan Series, Super Bowl, Indian Premiere League, National Rugby League, etc. These all seem fair representations of where a sport is big in a given nation or region of nations, that its tourney finals has ITNR due to coverage. --MASEM (t) 15:08, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Euroleague tourney then is there as well, and that's an equivalent event. Also keep in mind that the NBA includes a Canadian team so its not strictly national, but even then, I would consider the NBA to be the most recognized organized play in the sport, and thus of large interest beyond just the US. --MASEM (t) 19:44, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We're discussing a tournament. Inherent notability is not the reason to make the Finals the recurring event. As always, it is just two cities competing for the trophy. --George Ho (talk) 22:48, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Are you saying only international tournaments involving national teams should be permitted on ITNR? That would prohibit some events with worldwide attention like the Super Bowl. 331dot (talk) 23:48, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Same logic, that we're only talking about teams representing cities, means we should get ride of the National Rugby League or the Indian Premier League too (as the clubs there also represent cities). The point is that this is basketball, a major international sport, where one of its largest audience is in the United States. The NBA finals represents a final game after a long season of play for professional players in that country. Just because the team breakout is by city does not lessen the significance of the final result. In general: if a sport is well-established to be significant in a particular country or region (basketball or Am. rules football in the US, baseball in the US and Japan, association football in Europe and South America, rugby in Australia/Oceania, cricket in England/Australia/India/Pakistan, etc.) it makes sense that even if it seems nationalistic that it would make sense a well-covered tourney/championship of that sport in that country would be ITN/R. If anything, we should consider if there's ways to expand this to sports that are not as mainstream in Western countries but to sports that still get broad attention in the parts of the world where they are popular. --— Preceding unsigned comment added by Masem (talk • contribs) 23:52, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Like Super Bowl or Rugby League or Indian Premier League, the Finals has two cities competing each other. But if you insist on keeping the NBA Finals, there must be well-edited pages about tournaments in other national basketball leagues. What about ones from British Basketball League? I can propose it to be added. George Ho (talk) 23:54, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You can certainly propose whatever you wish, but you would need to demonstrate its notability and news coverage. Basketball does not have the same stature or coverage in every country that has its own league. 331dot (talk) 00:01, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know why you've mentioned the ProaA, the second-level German basketball competition, because that's never going to get approval at ITNC or ITNR. In the meantime, if you're not actually proposing to add or remove anything, can we just close this? BencherliteTalk22:47, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The NBA, NHL, MLB, and NFL are the highest level leagues for their respective sports. I'm tired of George Ho always bringing up this nonsense. Just because A exists doesn't mean B also needs to exist. Fine, you may hate sports. Fine, you may hate America. I don't know anymore but every time you do something it leads me further and further into wanting to ask about you at the Arbitration Committee.Correctron (talk) 06:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Support as it seems clear that the significance of the summit is wholly determined by what happens at the time, therefore ITNR is precisely not what this about. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:33, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
How much of the lack of interest/news in the 2015 G20 conference is directly related to the events in Paris? In other words, should we expect the same thing next year? – Muboshgu (talk) 19:38, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
How do we know that? The point is that there's little reason to keep this on ITNR if we have people stating categorically that it's of little notability this year. They didn't state that with relation to the Paris attacks so I think you're barking up the wrong tree. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:50, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I opposed it in part of being overshadowed by the Paris attacks, so Muboshgu is correct in at least one case. Plus, if you look at news articles about the G20, that's pretty much the headline in that the major talking point was the Paris attacks, so little new to add to an existing ITN item. --MASEM (t) 19:57, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Right. If this G20 is overshadowed by Paris and therefore not newsworthy, that doesn't necessarily mean we should remove it from ITN/R. Then again, maybe it should be a case-by-case basis each year. I'm not sure. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:25, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just because one instance was not posted does not mean the entire ITNR piece should be removed. See the US Open (tennis) a few months back - no one bothered to get the article in shape, so it was not posted despite being ITNR but that doesn't mean the ITNR is bad. --MASEM (t) 20:53, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But it really should mean that. If no-one can give enough of a shit to do anything about an ITNR, then it's clearly not of sufficient interest or notability to be featured. In fact, I would advocate a proposal that suggests if an ITNR fails to be featured because of a failure to update, it should be summarily removed. After all, if people couldn't care less about such events, why should they get a free pass at ITNC? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:56, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
ITNR has never been a free pass at ITNC. It means that the importance of the recurring event should have already been discussed and thus to make sure the present instance has a good enough article and that, with some exception, it is actually "in the news", to speak. We create ITNR based on a pattern of such, and thus to remove, we should be looking again if there is a pattern of it not being updated and/or in the news. From a quick check on the ITN articles, all previous G20 from 2009 appear to have been posted (including last year's), so there is no pattern at this point to say that this should be removed; one instance not being posted due to lack of notability or article update is not sufficient to remove an ITNR. Now, for example, say next year's US Open happens and the same thing occurs: no one bothers to update the article to quality for ITNR. That would be two years in a row that the ITNR wasnt updated, which I would then agree that we have a pattern to discuss its removal as an ITNR item. --MASEM (t) 21:17, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Again, a little TLDR to be honest. The bottom line is that there's little point in keeping an ITNR if no-one is interested in the content, and no-one is interested in updating it. ITNR is almost invariably a free pass at ITNC, very rarely do we not post an ITNR if it's been updated sufficiently. We don't just post things because it's a slow period, we shouldn't post things that aren't of interest to anyone. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:40, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And the G20 story wasn't posted not due to lack of interest, just that in the scope of other events it was a yawner. I'd also point out that its article was in weak shape, but checking years past, the respective G20 was in decent shape at ITN posting (eg for 2014 [1] on the day before it was posted). The point is: we need a pattern of disinterest to suggest removing from ITNR due to disinterest. One data point is not a pattern. --MASEM (t) 22:46, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No we don't. We need a consensus to remove it, no matter how that consensus is determined. Perhaps you've lost sight of how Wikipedia works, but it's not on a statistical analysis of events, it's on human interest and subjective interaction. In any case, I'm done here, I don't believe the G20 is of any interest to anyone really, it barely scratches the surface of news outlets, and has been strenuously objected to this year at ITNC. But hey, let's keep it at ITNR because .... because .... no reason. Perhaps you've forgotten that removing an item from ITNR doesn't preclude it from being nominated at ITNC, which would be a useful exercise considering the G20 newsworthiness is entirely related to the content of the G20 summit, and doesn't have some pre-determined significance. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:52, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Every previous G20 submit as best as I can tell was posted at ITN. There's precedence for this so it was put into ITNR. Removing it because this one single time it was deemed not as notable as other G20 ITNCs or other current events makes zero sense given that ITNR is not a guarantee of posting. --MASEM (t) 23:10, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for the reasons TRM gives, keeping in mind that being on ITNR means that the recurring event is generally of interest to post to ITNR but requires that the specific event at that time has merit and that the article is up to spec, all determined at ITN/C. In this specific case, the G20 summit was far overshadowed by the Paris attacks, and furthermore nothing seemed to come out of it. If the Paris attacks hadn't happen, I suspect we would have posted it for lack of any other news. --MASEM (t) 19:40, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose removal; I think this was overshadowed by the attacks and would have been posted (assuming quality was good) had it been more prominent in the news. If this isn't posted the next time it happens, I would probably be more willing to see it removed, but I think this year was an exception. 331dot (talk) 23:05, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support summits like these are basically junkets. It's good that world leaders mingle, even the hostile ones. But that is not news. Basically every ITNR item should be removed unless there was an RfC on adding that specific item and that specific item alone. As we all know, if real news comes out of one of these events, it can always be posted on the merits. μηδείς (talk) 17:20, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment the confusing thing here (and Medeis summarises it nicely) is that this is a jack shit meeting which perennially achieves jack shit. G8 summits are something different, something much more significant and notable with more substantial and important outputs. The difference between now and a year or so ago is that some of us now have the bottle to question this permanent inclusion. What is wrong with just leaving this to the community to decide year-on-year? For this year to be almost universally derided and opposed (and there's little mention of the Paris thing, so don't bring that in), it seems embarrassing and stupid to include this as something that has universal support. Let it go by ITNC for the next year or so, see how it goes. I know where my money is. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:27, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's fair to argue that in general G20 summits compared to G8 are less significant and thus reason to remove from ITNR, as Medeis argues; I don't necessarily agree that the G20 is not that less significant to not be posted, but Medeis' argument is in the proper spirit of ITNR. The issue I have with some arguments given here that we should remove the ITNR because one instance was not posted. ITNR is specifically designed to require discussion and never was a guarantee posting if there are problems with importance or the article's quality for that specific instance. We have in general been doing a good job of late of making sure ITNRs don't automatically pass through without article scrutiny, so the process works. --MASEM (t) 19:46, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but this year's nomination has hit the nail on the head. It's a meaningless meeting that achieves nothing and has only been featured at ITN simply because it's ITNR. It's not article scrutiny that's the issue, it's significance, relevance. But it's clear to me that I'm wasting my time here, the meeting will be kept and we'll do this all again next year when the next G20 summit amounts to jack shit. No probs. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:29, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I don't follow. What is an "ongoing ITNR entry"? If you mean that G20 summits should be removed from ITNR but should be added to "ongoing" whenever they occur, then that isn't what ongoing is for (as shown by the current failure of another world leaders' summit to get support to go straight to ongoing). BencherliteTalk16:47, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep on general significance, usually a major world news event, if Wikipedia article quality were sufficient to provide useful information, I see no harm in posting it on the main page. --Jayron3223:38, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Refresh the discussion on some current entries
IMO some of these entries don't seem to have a linked discussion showing recent obvious consensus to have (or keep them) at ITNR.
film awards seem to be a bit too numerous; specifically Venice Film Festival (Leone d’Oro), Berlin International Film Festival (Golden Bear), Toronto International Film, Festival (People's Choice Award), Filmfare Awards (Filmfare Award for Best Movie)
theatre: Laurence Olivier Awards
tech: CES and E3 I think were refused at ITNC since 2011
all 3 badminton entires
Canadian football's Grey Cup
rugby LEAGUE has 3 entires, but I can't recall them even being nominated at ITNC
horse racing has a surprising large amount of entires; at least Melbourne Cup should be rediscussed
Netball World Championships - not sure this was ever nominated
I don't want to start 10 different nominations. I was hoping to see what others consider to be obvious removal candidates before starting them. Nergaal (talk) 16:54, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Having ten possible removal candidates mentioned without starting a proper discussion for any of them will only end in chaos, particularly when you say that we should rediscuss "at least some of them" (i.e. not all of them - but which ones don't you want to discuss?) BencherliteTalk17:56, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Please start individual discussions with your reasoning for one or more of these. We simply can't discuss all of these in one section, you know that. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:13, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Grey Cup has been posted for the past several years, and I'm already prepping the article for this year's championship in advance of an ITN nomination this coming Sunday. Resolute00:37, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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I was surprised to realize that these are missing from ITNR. At least the first one, since it is only once every 4 years should be at ITNR. Nergaal (talk) 16:43, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So make a proposal for their inclusion, individually of course, so we don't get confused, including why they should be there, rather than just your surprise that they're not. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:48, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If we include any of the two, then I'd support the Confederations Cup as the bigger one. We do have quite some football-related stories already. --Tone17:06, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both The Confederations Cup is basically a dress-rehearsal for the World Cup of the following year, the Club World Cup isn't taken seriously by anyone apart from the winners, and we have a fair amount of football anyway. BencherliteTalk17:54, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, are you telling me that the Club World Cup isn't taken seriously until you win it? So they're playing the final like it's a friendly/exhibition game, and the winner is determined by people playing half-assed? I hope they at least take their continent's Champions League seriously. Do they? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:00, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In English football, supporters will want their team to qualify for, and then win, the UEFA Champions' League. I've never heard any manager or supporter or journalist say that the real target is to win the FIFA Club World Cup. It's a bit of a bonus round for continental champions. If you get knocked out, then, well, it was only a bit of fun. Getting knocked out in the Champions' League early is a big issue for a club, however. BencherliteTalk00:12, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I guess that makes a bit of sense as they'd probably be favored to win if they bested the rest of UEFA. I wonder what the CONMEBOL teams think though, since beating UEFA is a bit hard but would make you king of the world. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:50, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both. These are effectively friendly tournaments, or perhaps one step above a friendly. Nice to win, but not really important and no-one's goal or desire. The Confederations Cup is mostly a test event for the stadiums, broadcast and transport systems that will be used at the following World Cup. The Club World Cup is a money-making exercise for each of the continental champions, who care a lot more about winning their continent than beating each other. Both tournaments receive roughly the same level of interest and media coverage as the Charity Shield or UEFA Super Cup. Interesting enough for articles, but not ITN material. Modest Geniustalk17:01, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Addition proposal: more winter sports
The only current entries on winter sports are the hockey entires, the annual alpine skiing cup, and the quadrennial Olympic Games. How about adding
They do get quite a bit of attention at least in Europe and perhaps a bit in North America. Please vote for none, some (which ones) or all. Nergaal (talk) 16:53, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Four Hills is a good idea - since there's a single winner. The problem with Figure skating is that there are 4 winners - singles and pairs. So it makes a lengthy blurb. Biathlon ... well, I guess Four Hills get stronger coverage. Also, Ski jumping World Cup would be an option. --Tone17:09, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose except figure skating; biathlon and ski jumping have never been in the mainstream unless at the Olympics but then biathlon have never been and ski jumping, from what I heard have not been since Eddie the Eagle and never have been before that but then the UK will throw weight on anybody who take home a gold medal nowadays. Also, I think all sports in ITN/R should be those that headline the sports section globally, not whatever gets regular news coverage and I can see plenty that shouldn't be in ITN/R. Donnie Park (talk) 22:34, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove I see no evidence of the last four years being highlighted at ITN, at least nothing on the talkpages. If someone can point me to diffs where this was featured at ITN I'd be inclined to reconsider. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:45, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep on significance; most popular North American racing circuit, one of the most popular sporting event seasons in North America, highest level of competition in stock car racing. Last posted in 2011: [2], other years nominations have had quality issues rather than significance issues. --Jayron3223:35, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Remove - One of risky sports ever made, but I have never gotten into auto racing in general. If it is never been posted, then remove it. Removing this from ITNR does not prevent nomination of future Sprint Cups in ITNC, however. --George Ho (talk) 02:35, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep – Quality concerns aside, I don't really see a need to remove this as it has the necessary notability. Simply just a lack of care to properly update the article which shouldn't be held against the significance of the event. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 22:27, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Significant stock car racing championship that is on the same level as MotoGP (motorcycle racing), Formula 1 (single-seater), World Rally Championship (rallying). – Nascar1996(talk • cont)22:37, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - The championship in the highest level of stock car racing in North America is a recurring event that should be featured every year. Dough487223:03, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - While it's not on an international level like F1 or MotoGP, it's the top racing series in North America. However, the season articles would need to be improved much more. Alternatively, the Ford EcoBoost 400, which determines the champion, could also work as a link instead of to the season, since the 2015 Ford EcoBoost 400 seems to be in better condition than the 2015 season article. Zappa24Mati23:28, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That was NOT my argument, please do not put things into my mouth I didn't say. This is not about the US, it's about this sport having only national importance. I would have said the same about, for example, Sumo or Lelo burti, which are significant only in Japan or Georgia, respectively. 93.215.90.237 (talk) 09:33, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Very little would be posted if "international importance" was required. That's why such arguments are discouraged(See "Please do not" on ITNC) What matters is widespread news coverage. 331dot (talk) 12:18, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have not stated you are biased, nor did Resolute AFAIK. You did, however, oppose this because it is a "US only" event, which is not a valid argument (regardless of the country) because most of what we post occurs in a single country. 331dot (talk) 02:31, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Mister Resolute did ("I don't like it because it is too American"). Anyway, that it only occurs in one country was not my argument, rather, that this event does not transcend national borders as opposed to F1 or the rugby world cup or many other sport events. 93.215.89.121 (talk) 09:14, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Remove. Motorsports in general are overrepresented at ITN-R, with on a quick glance more annual events than anything except the many forms of football. That this is one of the less noteworthy is supported by the lack of posting over the past 4 years. I can see that the national only card is not a popular one; nevertheless, merely national forms of sporting competition appear to me inherently less notable than international events. Espresso Addict (talk) 05:54, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Remove There is too much motorsport at ITNR and so purely national forms of variations of the sport ought to take a lower place in our priorities than Formula 1, which has international interest. However there seems to be no consensus here to that effect. I wonder whether the Triple Crown of Motorsport elements need to be revisited, but that's another discussion. BencherliteTalk17:55, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No I wasn't, and looking at the 2015 NASCAR Whelen Euro Series season article (for instance) I see that it is hardly covered by non-NASCAR sources, making it of questionable importance. F1 races all around the world and has TV audiences accordingly; the Sprint Car Series doesn't and doesn't. BencherliteTalk02:43, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently "Premiere Sports UK" (actually Premier Sports) is to have been the UK broadcaster - an obscure satellite/cable subscription sports channel, for a country that gets most of its main sport free-to-air on the BBC or ITV and only grudingly pays for top-level sports from the main provider, Sky Sports. That makes me take the "350 million fans" with a very large pinch of salt. BencherliteTalk03:35, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This is the top level of one of the world's most popular spectator sports (stock car racing). Personally I cannot understand why, but that doesn't change the facts. Several of the !votes above argued that there are too many 'motorsport' entries on ITNR, but that's only because we lump together several distinctive sports under one heading. If we put all 'football' or 'bat/racquet sports' into one section they would also appear disproportionately large. Besides, if we're going to get rid of any of the motorsport entries it should be the special treatment we give to the Monaco Grand Prix... Modest Geniustalk12:15, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep (see below) --Dweller (talk) 15:53, 3 December 2015 (UTC) Remove May be the highest level in stock car racing, but pretty far down the food chain for motor racing, which should be the bar. --Dweller (talk) 10:37, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If a US metro area about as poor as one can be w/o touching Mexico can afford 360° stands this high around a 860m oval then NASCAR is big. The track used to be banked ~36°KeepNASCAR, 3rd paragraph says that only 15% of the 20 highest attendance single-day sporting events are not NASCAR. Not just in motorsports but every regularly held sporting event in the Solar System. Fortune 500 companies sponsor NASCAR more than any other motor sport. After analysis of List of sporting venues with a highest attendance of 100,000 or more I believe that the largest sports venue on Earth that's high enough to still look like a bowl was built for this championship! (Brazil's stadium once had 21% more but only because the crowd stood the whole game). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:48, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the largest enclosed sports venue on that list, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, was built for the Indianapolis 500, which is not a championship race, but a single race in the open wheel racing circuit in the U.S. It also hosts stock car races from time to time, but it was neither built for nor is primarily known as a NASCAR venue (though it does host a mid season NASCAR race, the Brickyard 400.) The Sprint Cup has no single championship race, it has a modified playoff format series known as the Chase for the Cup, which may or may not actually be decided on the last race. That last race is traditionally held at Homestead-Miami Speedway, which is actually pretty tiny by capacity standards. I agree this should be kept (see above) but make sure we get the facts right here. --Jayron3221:47, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
All those tracks bigger than Bristol don't seem as impressive cause the stands are so low. At the limit, if you were to surround a marathon course with a park bench would you now have a stadium of 180,000? I'm seeing steel folding chairs on Google for $12. You could make 50,000+ chairs for $600K but a 50,000 seat stadium would cost like 500 times as much, which shows how much more resources are involved in high grandstands. I was aware that Indy is primarily open-wheel and was not built for NASCAR. Bristol was definitely built for NASCAR and exists for it first and anything else second. I stand corrected on one thing though, I didn't realize how little the pre-chase points actually mattered, so I concede that only the last 10 races could be considered part of the championship proper and any Bristol races are too removed from final results. I just assumed they multiplied the points of late races but not too much cause that Johnson guy was a dynasty but who won the race seemed like a crapshoot (it must take a long term average for his skill to come out or so I thought). What I said is still true if championship is replaced with series which is what I should've said. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:13, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Why would you choose to argue against a person who voted the same way as you? Meaningless waste of bits. The Sprint Cup Series is the largest or second largest sports season in North America by every single major metric (in person attendance, revenue, TV viewership, etc.) except perhaps the NFL. If any reliable metric of likely reader interest beyond "I don't personally like it" is to be used, there's no reasonable way a person would oppose posting it on significance. Article quality has been an issue in several years, but that has little bearing on ITNR issues. You don't need to convince me, and the people whose argument is "I don't like sports" or "I just don't personally think its important enough" also have little reason to be debated against, their arguments are inconsequential and impotent. So please, stop arguing with me over whether Bristol or Indianapolis is a more impressive stadium, and leave the obvious facts speak for themselves. --Jayron3200:28, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I guess explaining side things that have been misconstrued to each other like you thought I meant Indy is not relevant to the core "arguments for keep and remove" thing. I don't have any more bits to add to the thread. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:14, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm sort of inclined to move to neutral, based on some of the arguments above, but I'm not sure anyone's addressed the nub of TRM's comments, despite Jayron32's response. If the 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 articles were of insufficient quality to be posted, what makes us think things will be any better in 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019? Why can't we just consider this through ITN/C if, perchance, there's a decent quality article worked up next year, and then with something substantial behind a nomination, reconsider ITN/R? --Dweller (talk) 10:18, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think the problem is the article choice. The main season articles are what usually gets nominated, but covering an entire year requires a great deal of effort. For other NA sports, we usually have a playoff or final series article to post, which is both more focused and easier to write/reference. For something like the 2016 Sprint Cup season, the followers of NASCAR would be well served to continually update and reference the article throughout the season. At that point, an ITN pass on quality would be a cakewalk. Resolute15:58, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Remove 2009 and 2013 did feature, 2011 and 2015 (which is still a stub) didn't feature at ITN. Clearly not that much interest. Just pass it through ITNC in future. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:47, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Remove per 331dot. News coverage of event does not seem to be significant, and thus unlikely to drive users to Wikipedia to seek information of it. --Jayron3223:37, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I can't seem to find any substantive evidence of the consensus by which this was added to ITNR. A quick search shows we posted a story about this in 2012 (the 2012 Toronto International Film Festival article) and in 2010 (similar year award article) but not since (unless we posted some other article). We have eight film related ITNRs, is this one worthy of inclusion alongside Oscars, BAFTAs, Berlin, Venice, Cannes etc? The Rambling Man (talk) 08:29, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Its article states that it is referred to as "second only to Cannes" and "most influential fall film festival". I haven't yet read up on the other festivals, but this one seems important. 331dot (talk) 02:35, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. It's an important film festival. I would rather remove the Berlin film festival and the two Indian film awards (and add the Sundance festival instead). 87.154.211.142 (talk) 18:08, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Remove, as 331dot said, it is "second to". We don't post awards second only to Nobel prizes, so why should we do it with films? Nergaal (talk) 08:35, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Remove. We don't need four different film festivals, and film is overrepresented anyway. This festival seems to be of interest to those in the industry only - a view that is backed up by the lack of attention & posting in recent years. Modest Geniustalk12:19, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Remove I would like the "keepers" to provide evidence that this localised film festival really is second only to the first- or second-most notable European film award festival. Or, per Nergaal, how many of these "second to" film awards do we need at ITNR? We can re-visit this should it be nominated at ITNC in due course. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:56, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I won't lose any sleep if this is removed from the list, but the article cites Variety for the "second only to Cannes" claim and cites Time Magazine as claiming it has "grown from its place as the most influential fall film festival to the most influential film festival, period." 331dot (talk) 22:19, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - how one can claim with a straight face that film is overrepresented at ITN/R is beyond me. If anything is overrepresented it is sports. Anyway...this is festival is not really second to Cannes, because the two are very different festival. Cannes = European and international arthouse, Toronto = big quality productions. 93.215.94.140 (talk) 11:57, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Big Three are very different from TIFF (or Sundance and Tribeca), it's like comparing the Nobel to the Alternative Nobel (Right Livelihood Award). 93.215.95.55 (talk) 00:05, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this can easily stand on its own at ITNC should there be any consensus to post it, given that it's not been up for the last couple of years, it's clear there's no real interest in it at ITN. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:34, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The last annual event of Venice Film Festival that was featured in the Main Page was the 69th (2012). Without enough work and effort to make the Festival meet criteria, the Festival no longer qualifies as ITN's recurrent event. --George Ho (talk) 05:40, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Remove. We don't need four different film festivals, and film is overrepresented anyway. This festival seems to be of interest to those in the industry only - a view that is backed up by the lack of attention & posting in recent years. Modest Geniustalk12:19, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Remove Is it second only to the first- or second-most notable European film award festival. Or, per Nergaal, how many of these "second to" film awards do we need at ITNR? We can re-visit this should it be nominated at ITNC in due course. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:57, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Remove. The article states this festival "has become the most prestigious international film festival in the world" but upon skimming the article it's not clear to me on what that claim is based on. I'm kind of actually neutral on this as well, but in this situation that equates to a 'remove' in my mind. 331dot (talk) 22:26, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've watched this procession since about 1982, quite why it's guaranteed a place at ITN I'm not sure, but now's the time to discuss it. Food for thought: why should we pick this excruciatingly boring GP as being ITNR? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:45, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep because it seems to attract attention of crowds that are not normally paying attention to the sport. For this specific event lots of socialites show up and no other event (except maybe for Singapore GP) comes close to it, and for example, this doesn't happen either for Le Mans nor for Daytona. Nergaal (talk) 22:56, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Remove. There's no reason to treat this Grand Prix any differently to all the others. The fact that it is supposedly part of the 'triple crown' seems to interest no-one except Wikipedia - I've never seen the term used elsewhere. The mainstream media do not give Monaco special treatment over, say, Monza or the Japanese Grand Prix, and nor should we. The fact that it is held in a popular resort for billionaires (so several turn up) does not raise its importance in my view. This isn't Tatler, and we already cover the overall champion of the sport. Modest Geniustalk11:05, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Remove it's nothing to do with the purported "culture" or "social aspects" of the event, what nonsense. This is one race out of around twenty that is worth the same as all the other races (bar the last one, which by this race's inclusion, should also be included as it's _so_ much more significant). The Rambling Man (talk) 22:40, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Remove (1) in reality no F1 race is more important in racing terms than any other. Nobody says "Well, Bloggs may have won the World Championship but he didn't win i Monaco, did he?" (2) The opinions of socialites has no extra weight, obviously. (3) Wikipedia's claim that "The Monaco Grand Prix is widely considered to be one of the most important and prestigious automobile races in the world alongside the Indianapolis 500-Mile Race and the 24 Hours of Le Mans" is sourced to a Monaco-based website - what a great independent source that is! (4) The idea of the Triple Crown of Motorsport is laughable since no-one can agree on what is needed to win this unofficial title and also no-one can now win it given the fact that two of the three races clash. BencherliteTalk22:53, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Remove: If there is a notable result, it can of course be nominated at ITN/C, but I fail to see why this racing event is guaranteed a spot at ITN every year. -Kudzu1 (talk) 01:29, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Remove It's self-evidently included as a sports event, the coverage will always focus on that, not which celebrities attended or what they wore. We have to judge it on those grounds. Even though I love motor sports, it's POV and a bit bonkers to include this particular race. The ITN/R coverage of F1 should start and finish with the World Championship. And if, in any given year, some particularly sensational sartorial incident involving Elton John and Lady Gaga makes world headlines, we can consider that on its own merits in ITN/C. --Dweller (talk) 10:13, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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