Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers

RFC on requiring consistent style of access, publication and archive dates in footnotes

Note: this is direct extension of the above discussion. A lot of relevant information is there

The following is what the Manual of Style says with regard to access dates:

• Access and archive dates in references should be in either the format used for publication dates, or YYYY-MM-DD.

In the same article, write

• Jones, J. (20 Sep 2008) ... Retrieved 5 Feb 2009.

or

• Jones, J. (September 20, 2008) ... Retrieved 2009-02-05.

but not

• Jones, J. (20 Sep 2008) ... Retrieved February 5, 2009.

The issue with this is that the footnotes are allowed to have dates in two different styles. The main argument for the inconsistency seems to be that the access date is not proper part of the citation and the difference of styles helps to emphasize the distinction. However, I don't find this argument convincing. Only few readers know the actual reason for the difference, thus for them this style looks just inconsistent. This is emphasized by the fact that the dates with the same format is not grouped spatially - they are interleaved; this leads to the whole reference section looking like a mess. Note, that we have pretty strict guidelines with regards to consistency of date formats and the only exceptions are for spatially grouped dates - dates in tables and dates in footnotes. This is not the case here. Given these arguments, I think that all dates within references should use the same format, the selection of which should conform to relevant guidelines, as before. To be more specific, I want the section of the guideline quoted above to become the following:

• Access and archive dates in references should be in the same format that is used for publication dates.

In the same article, write

• Jones, J. (20 Sep 2008) ... Retrieved 5 Feb 2009.

or

• Jones, J. (2008-09-20) ... Retrieved 2009-02-05.

but not

• Jones, J. (20 Sep 2008) ... Retrieved February 5, 2009.

or

• Jones, J. (20 September 2008) ... Retrieved 2009-02-05.

I would like to ask for some opinions to determine whether this change is supported by consensus. Thank you for the input. 1exec1 (talk) 23:03, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. 1exec1 (talk) 23:03, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
• Support I can think of no reason to allow inconsistency. If it were up to me, I'd require consistency throughout the article. JIMp _talk·cont 23:27, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
• Support Nom is stating the obvious. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 03:10, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
• Refuse to consider in this talk page. If adopted this proposal would contradict WP:CITE, which allows any consistent citation style, including APA style. APA style, in turn, calls for dates like "(2008, January 1)" for a publication date, but "January 5, 2010" for an access date. Jc3s5h (talk) 02:42, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Agreed; stylistic matters for footnotes belong at WT:CITE. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:57, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
    • As blazoned on the top of WP:CITE", This page documents an English Wikipedia content guideline", so style matters ought to remain here. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 03:07, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
      • I believe this (non?) issue has been solved by adding a pointer from WT:CITE to here. 1exec1 (talk) 09:07, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Support per nom. -- Alarics (talk) 06:40, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

• Support—no-brainer: make ref dates uniform. Like Jimp, I can't see why all dates shouldn't be consistent in an article, with the possible exception of the occasional really space-poor table. Tony (talk) 06:46, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
• Burn with fire are you enjoying your nice little MOS walled garden and not actually soliciting comments from the community of editors who cite? Fifelfoo (talk) 07:15, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
  • So where I can see a list of problems with this proposal along the with the supporting arguments? How can I adjust my opinion without even knowing what's wrong? I acknowledge that I'm not a expert in official citation styles. But here's a comment of an user who did some research:

    I had looked through the APA style guide and found the recommended publication date format was like "(2010, February 22)", and that access dates were discouraged unless the content was likely to change. I could find no example of an access date format. But today I experimented with Zotero and found that if you specify an access date and order Zotero to produce an APA reference list entry, it will format the access date like "March 6, 2012".

Emphasis mine. So unless someone can confirm that there's a requirement on APA or some other style guide to use different format for access dates, your argument is very weak. 1exec1 (talk) 09:07, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I have confirmed that not only Zotero, but also the Wikipedia "Cite this page" tool found to the left of articles, and Microsoft Word 2010 implement APA style with publication dates like "(2010, February 22)" and access dates like "March 6, 2012". Jc3s5h (talk) 15:20, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

This is just the way these tools chose to implement undefined part of the APA guideline. APA style doesn't say anything about the format of access dates, thus one can choose whatever format he wants, including 2008, December 2 or 2 December 2008. 1exec1 (talk) 14:50, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

After searching further, I found this example on the APA style blog, a website operated by the American Psychological Association. It gives the retrieval date as "October 14, 2009". Jc3s5h (talk) 15:25, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

This example is not a rule. There's nothing written anywhere that this is the preferred format. For us this means that one can choose whatever format he wants without breaking any rules in the guide.1exec1 (talk) 11:27, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Since the blog just cited describes itself thus: "the APA Style Blog is the official companion to the Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association, Sixth Edition" I consider the matter definitively settled and your objection to be without merit. Jc3s5h (talk) 12:54, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I can repeat the same question again: can you quote some official APA source unambiguously saying that DMY/MDY style is the preferred one? 1exec1 (talk) 11:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I just did. Read the APA manual. You will see that format is always presented in the form of examples. That what the entire chapter 7 consists of, examples. The presentation of an example on the official blog is consistent with this practice. Jc3s5h (talk) 12:55, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: YYYY-MM-DD dates have the advantage of being (easily) machine-readable. An ideal solution would allow their use for data entry in citation templates, subsequently rendered with either a configurable output, or output according to a user-preference setting. c/f {{Start date}}. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:44, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Andy, this is like arguing for decimalisation because it's easier for computers. Parsing reasonably well formed dates (especially sitting in a "date" field of a template) is fairly trivial. But I do have a preference for them for accessdates, partly to emphasise that they are technical trivia 99% of the time. Rich Farmbrough, 09:58, 9 May 2012 (UTC).

Take a step back. To me the issue is somewhat moot. When we started using accessdate we were a little vague, and the purpose is therefore equally muddy. Access dates are now part of mainstream citation, but mainstream citation is also static. I made some proposals a few years back on this, I think they were lost in the talk page morass, but they were slightly addressed by adding a quote field, although that has a similarly muddy purpose. So what we want is:

• This is the document I looked at (it was on date A, and the text supports "Foo is a bar" because it says "Foo the bar from Baz")
• This document was last looked at on date B and it still says "Foo the bar from Baz"

In other words there are two distinct functions, one is to pin down the version of a dynamic page (even if we just mean the page existed on that day) the other is to monitor currency.

It's not clear to me where and when we want to display this information. I believe we actually need to tuck some of it away, and only use it when we are verifying currency of references, or investigating why references don't [any more] seem to support their referent (referand?). Rich Farmbrough, 09:53, 9 May 2012 (UTC).

• Oppose. Archival and access dates are usually very unimportant info; I can barely see the point of giving them at all in most cases, let alone of spelling them out in full. In some articles this would make a large majority of the space in the reference footnotes be taken up by full dates, making it much harder to look for actually important info such as authors and titles. ― A. di M.​  10:17, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

So why should the publication dates be spelled out in full if the space is at premium? This proposal doesn't disallow using ISO format, only that dates should use consistent format whatever it is. 1exec1 (talk) 10:21, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

What is "most cases"? References generally? Or web references, where material is highly mutable? Where sources change, a specific version should be cited. For printed works, a publication date or edition usually suffices. Web pages don't have that, so an access date is needed. And where significant changes are made the access date can be very important (like Rich just said). ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:00, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose I like having the visual signal that the access dates are different. Also, it reflects actual community practice, having been voluntarily used on a huge number of articles even though never required, and /i think guidelines like this ought to reflect the community's voluntary practice. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:16, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
  • I'm pretty certain that were it not for Reflinks' adoption of ISO as the default date format, we would see it on few articles. Those ISO date formats currently being "voluntarily used on a huge number of articles". As it stands, the pervasive use of dmy or mdy dates despite the Reflinks insertions indicates that people strongly desire date formats they can easily understand. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 00:37, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:CREEP. The more rules we add about how references must be formatted, the more difficult we make it for people to add references, when we should be making it easier. I wouldn't mind having a bot run around making them look more consistent but I don't think we should insist on turning human editors into bots. —David Eppstein (talk) 15:20, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Surely those are arguments for reducing the number of permissible formats?? --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 00:37, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

The actual problem is that some editors like to oppose any such consistency changes based on WP:DATERET. I think wording of the guideline that consistency is preferred but not required would fix any issues with WP:CREEP. What do you think?1exec1 (talk) 11:14, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose as written. Some editors distinguish accessdates and publication dates by format. I see nothing objectionable with that approach; it's been accepted and used on Wiki for years. We should not be forbidding such styles without a very strong reason, and I haven't seen that yet. I would support adding "Jones, J. (2008-09-20) ... Retrieved 2009-02-05." to the explicit list of acceptable styles, however, to avoid giving new editors the impression that style isn't allowed. Gimmetoo (talk) 20:06, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. I could see all access dates (all across Wikipedia) having a consistent (and preferably terse) format. But I don't (yet?) see any compelling reason that they should be consistent with the publication date. Which could vary with the style of citation. Seems to me that access dates would be easier to handle (in the templates, and for editors) if there was a single (terse) format. Consider it an in-house technical thing, independent of citation style. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:16, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Templates? Templates are not required. Jc3s5h (talk) 00:18, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose, and continue to allow international date format for access and archive dates  Access and archive dates are not part of the citation itself.  Allowing the international-standard date form for the access and archive date seems to work well to distinguish the two groups.  Unscintillating (talk) 00:06, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Many style manuals do specify access dates as part of the citation, although I have not noticed any that specify an archive date. So many access dates are part of the citation itself. Jc3s5h (talk) 00:18, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

• Of course they are part of the citation. If they were not, there is even less of an argument for them to be governed by WP:CITE. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 00:37, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:CREEP Having a restriction must have a good reason for it. The proposer thinks this very mild inconsistency looks a mess. I don't see that and doubt that most users will.Dejvid (talk)Dejvid (talk) 16:54, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

The actual problem is that some editors like to oppose any such consistency changes based on WP:DATERET. I think wording of the guideline that consistency is preferred but not required would fix any issues with WP:CREEP. What do you think?1exec1 (talk) 11:14, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

• Support. I like the way the citations look when the dates are all a uniform style, and personally I find the ISO dates not as easy to parse. A bot could be tasked with changing the existing articles to conform to this guideline.-- Dianna (talk) 18:53, 10 May 2012 (UTC);
• Oppose. Changing the MoS means requiring millions of referenced articles to be update to meet it. Or if not, then it is pointless it being in the MoS if it is not followed.

It seems to me the MoS is updated more often than most articles are. I think MoS change proposers should try eating their own dogfood and come with an evidence-base proposal of, let's say, a few thousand articles before-and-after the proposed change, before suggesting such makework. WP:CREEP as above, and WP:IDONTLIKEIT is relevant, too. Si Trew (talk) 22:49, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

The actual problem is that some editors like to oppose any such consistency changes based on WP:DATERET. I think wording of the guideline that consistency is preferred but not required would fix any issues with references not aligned to the guideline. What do you think?1exec1 (talk) 11:14, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

• Support and update WP:CITE to conform: Having multiple formats in the same article is pointless, confusing, sloppy-looking and leads to formatting editwars. I've raised the issue before that there never was a clear consensus to change MOS to support ISO date formatting in the accessdate to begin with, and many consensus discussions over the last decades that concluded we shouldn't use ISO date formats at all in reader-facing material, because only geeks who know what order ISO dates go in knows for sure what they mean (2010-02-07 is liable to be interpreted differently by average North Americans vs. typical British, Australian, etc. readers). If we return to the simple rule to use the same date format in an article consistently (and consistently with WP:ENGVAR), virtually everyone will follow it without incident. PS: Wikipedia DGAF about APA style; WP is not the American Psychological Association. PPS: That various things not in compliance with a proposed rule would have to be changed over time to comply with it is not an argument against the rule, it's just an statement of one's own unwillingness to partcipate in that particular effort. Frankly, that's another DGAF matter; no one on the system cares at all who is doing what, and what you personally won't fix is of no consequence, since some bored gnome will just write a bot or AWB script for it. If "we can't do that, because stuff would have to change" were a valid rationale here, WP would look exactly as it did the week it started. PPPS: The APA "2024, August 9" weird formatting being "allowed" by WP:CITE is a red herring, since no one actually does this here. If anyone did, another editor would fix the goofy date format sooner or later, probably sooner. I've been editing for about 7 years here, and only seen that nonsense two or three times, and was not reverted when I cleaned it up. PPPPS: The idea that this must be discussed at WT:CITE, not here, is clearly incorrect. This is obviously a MoS matter. A content guideline and how-to, like WP:CITE, cannot be authoritative on style guideline matters, by definition. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 07:59, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
• Support as per SMcCandlish and others. The templates (such as {{Cite web}}) all recommend using a format such as "May 14, 2012" so that is what is being used as editors copy-and-paste the blank templates as a starting point. It makes sense to use "May" instead of "05" because the English version is immediately, and unambiguously recognisable to any reader. I can't see how any article can be harmed by having a consistent date format throughout. GFHandel ♬  01:53, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Access and archive dates are present for a different reason than the publication/creation date. There's no reason for them to use the same format. The existing wording is fine. The proposed change would be classic instruction creep. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:29, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
• Strong Support as per 1exec1. There's absolutely no reason for such an inconsistency in style.--Yutsi ^Talk/ Contributions 22:01, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose utterly In the discussion above (two sections, all i've read), I don't recognize a good reason in favor and I disagree with the reasons that are bad because they simply express personal preference.
  · "Bad guy" OC is dead right that no one should confidently attribute 2011-05-23 to the use of templates or to copy-and-paste. Certainly I have typed "Retrieved 201y-mm-dd" more than 1000 times, or pasted one completion and edited the numerals.
  · I do wish the display were shorter, don't much care about the typing. Now my preference seems to be 20110523, second choice 2011-05-23, no alphabetical characters.
  · (quote) "Access and archive dates in references should be in either the format used for publication dates, or YYYY-MM-DD". I do not understand this to permit the alternation of access and archive dates that OC illustrates in (?)the preceding section, two blue tables. I understand "access and archive" to be one use; if I am wrong, of course I think wording can be improved. Anyway I suggest improvement "should use either YYYY-MM-DD or the format used for publication dates". (continued in new section if time permits) --P64 (talk) 20:51, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
• Support - Per proposer. Uniformity in date formats is good. Permitting (and using) two formats within a single article gives editors the impression that there is no MOS rule on date formats at all. --Noleander (talk) 20:35, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
• Support - The inconsistencies cited do make the references look messy, so WP:IAR should weigh heavy over references to English style guides that were devised before the existence of Wikipedia. __meco (talk) 20:52, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

US military date format

I'm trying to find a reference that indicates the US military writes the date as, say for instance 25 December 2011. While I was in the United States Navy for four years, and all of the logs I have prepared never was the date written as such. I tried to see if things have changed, and I couldn't find a reliable source that indicates such change. Can someone cite where the military writes the date in that manner. I do know the military does write it 25DEC11 and other formats, just not 25 December 2011.Racingstripes (talk) 05:24, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

It would be useful if you took a look at the US naval ship artices, given your familiarity with the situation. I've encountered navy and ex-navy editors who insist on dmy. I ended up not changing the format to mdy, to avoid trouble. Tony (talk) 12:11, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

A web page of the U.S. Naval Institute, which is closely associated with the U.S. Navy, "Writing for Proceedings" contains this date example: "12 July 1986". But the page does not delve into detailed style advice and it isn't obvious whether they would edit manuscripts with a different date format to conform to mdy. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:47, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I read a wikipedia article on a ship and notice the date in a style of 02 April 12. So I edited that date to April 2, 2012, and my edit was reverted with this article as the reference why. Surprised by what I read, I started looking at other US Navy ships wikipedia articles and there is mixed appearances. So I decided to review official websites for ships, and based on the small percentage of ship's websites that I reviews the results are mixed as well. Some websites consisted of both styles, and some just have April 2, 2012.Racingstripes (talk) 16:04, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I acquired my fondness for uniformity from my military experience, and surprisingly the military hasn't been very uniform in the date format.Racingstripes (talk) 16:07, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

The rationale I've seen for 25 December [20]12 rather than, say, December 25, [20]12 (this was many years ago; it convinced me to use the former format) is that number word number is clearly separated with no possibility of confusion and easier to take in at a glance, as against word number, number. This wasn't in a military context, but it strikes me as the sort of argument that might appeal to the military mind. I suppose it was recommended, but not considered important enough to enforce. Pol098 (talk) 19:11, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Since there are reliable sources that indicate that the US military uses multiple styles when writing the date, it would incorrect for this article to state articles on the modern US military use day before month, in accordance with military usage.Racingstripes (talk) 17:36, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Which reliable sources are these? --John (talk) 17:55, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

• Whatever the rationale for the use of dmy and when it was decided, it's pretty much an accepted convention here now. Those editors who work WP:MILHIST seem to prefer it by quite a large margin. Removing that particular statement you are challenging could mean disruption – thousands of articles risk being changed to mdy. If you're really unhappy with the status quo, I guess you could always file an RfC. I won't hold my breath for a change. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 18:07, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Official US military website:

• http://www.truman.navy.mil/ dates written in Month Day Year
• http://www.enterprise.navy.mil/ dates written in Day Month Year
• http://www.gw.navy.mil/core/About/construction.html dates written Month Day Year
• http://www.dix.army.mil/history/history.html dates written Day Month Year
• http://www.andrews.af.mil/library/biographies/bio.asp?id=14005 dates written Month Day Year

Racingstripes (talk) 18:15, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

By saying something is done in accordance of military usage is a definitive statement that clearly is not the way the military operates as indicated by the above official military websites. There maybe indication that at times the military does write the date in one manner but there is also indications that the military writes it another manner. On a side note if the military does write the date in a certain manner, does that mean that wikipedia articles should follow suit? Regarding disruptive and changing thousands of articles, there are plenty of articles that qualify as modern military that are not consistent with this. These articles qualify as modern military and are either inconsistent or at times their content uses both formats and I'm sure there has to be plenty more War in Afghanistan (2001–present), Michael Mullen, Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Martin Dempsey, MCPON, Naval Station Norfolk, USAF Thunderbirds.Racingstripes (talk) 06:48, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree, the fact that the articles use other data format is not a strong reason against the change. However, is there much inconsistency in the date format used by the army? Websites are websites; you should look at the official documents. For example, all U.S. Army field manuals use DMY dates for long formats. In addition to that, this field manual] says that all army messages use Date and Time Group format, which is sort of DMY. So I don't see much of ambiguity about which format to choose.

By the way, War in Afghanistan (2001–present) is about Afghanistan, not U.S. or its army. 1exec1 (talk) 15:27, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

I seem to have noticed that whilst many many articles on ships, equipment, battles etc employ dmy dates, it's quite a bit less frequently seen in bios of military personel. Just an observation. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 16:11, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Yep. - Dank (push to talk) 16:18, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

If you ask at WT:MIL or WT:SHIPS, you'll find out more than you ever wanted to know on this subject :) Short answer: the 100K+ articles on Wikipedia tagged by Milhist lean toward DMY, and I can't guarantee that if you use MDY you won't get reverted, but personally, I tend not to revert MDY if the US connection is very strong ... it's just not a battle we're ever going to definitively win, as long as this is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and as long as most Americans are a little uncomfortable with DMY (and they are). - Dank (push to talk) 15:45, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Categorical BC/BCE standardization

A conversation that got started on the issue of BC/BCE standardization has been lost inside a mess of strikeouts of the posts of a deleted user. So let me try to start again, separate from whatever he was discussing. The relevant portion of the guidelines currently start out with "AD and BC are the traditional ways of referring to these eras. CE and BCE are common in some academic and religious writing. No preference is given to either style." In the general case, that is reasonable. However, given that both are acceptable, there are contexts in which one or the other may be preferable to avoid (generally unintended) POV problems. (For those unfamiliar with the situation, BC stands for Before Christ, and AD stands for Anno Domini, "In the Year of Our Lord", both references to the perceived divinity of Jesus; the BCE/CE nomenlcature - Before Common Era/Common Era - uses the same date figures but avoid claims of divinity. BCE/CE is now in common use among academic historians.) By casting an article on, say, the history of the Temple in Jerusalem specifically in terms of BC/AD, it creates the unintentional suggestion that what was going on with or to the Jews has some relation to Christ. I would like to propose that we replace that opening with this:

• • AD and BC are the traditional ways of referring to these eras. CE and BCE are common in some academic and religious writing. No preference is given to either style.
    • Use either the BC-AD or the BCE-CE notation, but (except for within quotations) be consistent within the same article. AD may appear before or after a year (AD 106, 106 AD); the other abbreviations appear after (106 CE, 3700 BCE, 3700 BC).
    • BC-AD notation is preferred for articles that are primarily about the Christian religion, such as the history of a church or the biography of a saint. BC-BCE notation is preferred for articles primarily on non-Christian religious topics (including non-Abrahamic religions, non-Christian Abrahamic religions, and atheism) and for articles on general religious topics that include both Christian and non-Christian content. For articles that are not primarily on religious topics, no preference is given to either style.

(The "Use either" paragraph is bumped up from later in the section, with the exception for quotations being added.) Basically, I see this akin to the British spelling/US spelling standard, where we use British spelling on British topics and US spelling on US topics. Any objections? --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:40, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

On first and hurried glance it looks like a general improvement, except that the wording lacks the present prohibition of casual changes. "Use either", without stated limitation, invites edit warring and pov pushing and makes the situation worse. Perhaps the omission was an oversight?

If the choice of era-dating style is akin to WP:ENGVAR (especially at WP:RETAIN), we should ensure there is an analogous template for notifying violators.

I hope that your asking "Any objections" will not lead to hasty closure of the discussion. It's a complex issue; let's give it sufficient time and consideration. Hertz1888 (talk) 17:23, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I was merely listing the bullet points that would be changed; "Do not arbitrarily change" is a separate bullet point and I was expecting it to remain. Good point on the creation of a template. And no, "any objections" was not an attempt to rush things; merely an attempt to be able to treat a prolonged lack of response as consensus. Clearly, response has occurred. --Nat Gertler (talk) 02:36, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

The English language is chock full of historical and religious baggage. Just get over it. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with Jc3s5h about the desirability of not worrying so much about this. It is simply untrue that the merely conventional use of BC/AD affirms the divinity of Jesus; how is this so? Does the use of "Thursday" assert the divinity of Thor? Both BC/AD and BCE/CE stipulate the life of Christ as the center from which all time is reckoned; they differ not at all on this point. Besides, you do know that many people think CE stands for "Christian era," and that indeed some dictionaries provide that as one meaning? For me, BC/AD is less susceptible of scribal error, or misreading at a glance, than BCE/CE. More specifically, the proposed wording is too complicated and invites lawyering. Let me be self-centered and say that I don't want to have to deal with drive-by era-convention edits on the hundreds of articles I watch on ancient Greek, Roman, and Celtic religion, insisting without the slightest interest in the actual content that non-Christian religions must not use BC/AD. I could just as easily argue that since Anno Domini is Latin, it's more appropriate for any article on ancient Rome. Or better yet, I could argue for using AUC dates for all articles about ancient Rome; that would solve the supposed problem of Christian-centered chronology, which BCE/CE does not. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:01, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

You are, of course, free not to worry about this. It is not "simply untrue that the merely conventional use of BC/AD affirms the divinity of Jesus"; it is saying that all things are relative not just to Jesus, but to Christ, and that he is our Lord; there's a reason why people have been using alternatives to BC/AD for centuries. That's different than simply using that date as a reference point. You may not feel that way, so it is simply untrue for you that it does, but what problem would this standard cause for you? Apparently, that you'd see some editing taking place. "For me, BC/AD is less susceptible of scribal error, or misreading at a glance, than BCE/CE." If you wish to argue that one should be considered generally preferable, feel free to make that case, but the extant situation is that both formats are already deemed acceptable. --Nat Gertler (talk) 02:53, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Look, the proposed change says BC-BCE notation is preferred for articles primarily on non-Christian religious topics. Does that not give drive-by editors a license to impose BCE/CE dating on every article about ancient Greek and ancient Roman religion and myth? I don't wish to impose a particular system on anyone else, and I don't wish to go around changing established era conventions in other articles. I do think the subject matter of an article should be taken into account in choosing or changing the era convention; I don't think we need to dictate that all articles not explicitly dealing in Christian subject matter should use BCE/CE. The proposed phrase would dictate a categorical preference, even if contrary to the consensus of editors contributing to the article. That's a significant change. Cynwolfe (talk) 04:32, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

If using BC/AD implies a relationship between the historical event and Jesus then by the same logic, I could say that measuring temperature in Celsius implies a relationship with water. It's simply not true and only a select few people would even consider that possibility. Besides, the proposed change would create even more ambiguity than the status quo, since people would be arguing about whether an article does or doesn't relate to Western civilisation. (WP Editor 2011 (talk) 08:52, 19 May 2012 (UTC))

But the relationship between the Celcius scale and the physical characteristics of water is not "implied", it is explicit. Roger (talk) 10:21, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Simply saying that something is "simply not true" does not actually make it not true. Claiming that only a few people would consider that possibility flies in the face that this possibility has been considered by many for many years, leading to BCE/CE becoming the apparent default for academic use in non-Christian-specific circles. Since "Western civilisation" is not the criteria, that's a false concern. -Nat Gertler (talk) 13:59, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

@Cynwolfe Two points. Firstly the proposed wording uses "preferred", this doesn't equate to "should". Secondly I agree that this shouldn't apply to every article about "ancient Greek and ancient Roman religion and myth". The issue is really one of politeness and consideration: it's not appropriate in articles about currently practised non-Christian religions to use BC/AD – the latter in particular. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:46, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

And there is an argument to be made for adding a clause limiting it to currently practiced religions. Good thought. -Nat Gertler (talk) 13:59, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

"Currently practiced" would certainly solve my problem. Peter coxhead, you are a reasonable soul who sees the difference between "preferred" and "thou shalt," but I can't say whether you are in the majority among editors who concern themselves with stylistic conformity. I've seen editors swoop into articles—long, complex, densely researched and footnoted articles—and try to impose certain stylistic preferences (such as citation style, or era convention) against the strong objections of the editors who are actually generating the content. Hence my exasperated tone. As a secularist, I'm tired of having people fight their religious wars in my yard (that goes for militant atheists too). I'm perfectly happy to give Thor his day, because I don't think Thor exists. The world is full of living fictions. Homo sum, and all that. As I said, I wouldn't use BC/AD in a context where it would sound offensive or quaint. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:59, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Sadly I have concluded from experiences similar to those you describe that reasonableness is all too rarely a quality possessed by editors interested in (or claiming to be interested in) stylistic conformity, so I well understand your exasperation. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:12, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

AFAIK, Cynwolfe is correct that "CE" started out simply as Christian Era, the English translation of Latin "AD". (And "BC" stayed "BC".) Only later was it taken to be, or to double for, Common Era. That said, it is preferred by many where "AD" would be taken as Christian POV pushing.

And frankly, in my country, I'm surprised that there isn't a move to rename Thursday. At least we don't have that to worry about.

This may not be reliable, but it seems that Hindu writers don't have much problem with AD/BC. That's more of a Jewish/Muslim/secular thing. — kwami (talk) 05:56, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

An updated take:

• • AD and BC are the traditional ways of referring to these eras. CE and BCE are common in some academic and religious writing. No preference is given to either style.
    • Use either the BC-AD or the BCE-CE notation, but (except for within quotations) be consistent within the same article. AD may appear before or after a year (AD 106, 106 AD); the other abbreviations appear after (106 CE, 3700 BCE, 3700 BC).
    • BC-AD notation is preferred for articles that are primarily about Christian religions, such as the history of a church or the biography of a saint, except for those specifically about Jehovah's Witnesses. BC-BCE notation is preferred for articles primarily on topics related to currently-practiced non-Christian religions (including non-Abrahamic religions, non-Christian Abrahamic religions, and atheism), Jehovah's Witnesses, and for articles on general religious topics that include both Christian and non-Christian content. For articles that are not primarily on religious topics, no preference is given to either style.

This reflects the "currently practiced" concern, adds in Jehovah's Witnesses (who avoid AD dating apparently because of concern of the accuracy of the dating of the birth of Jesus), and reworks the phrase "the Christian religion" I had sloppily put in there as if all differences were merely intramural. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:08, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

That sounds pretty good. Anything that can, at the least, minimize some of the conflict is an improvement. To clarify, the "Do not arbitrarily change" bullet point will remain as stated above? Mojoworker (talk) 17:00, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

The position of atheism in this list is awkward, classing it as a religion. Better to move it to the end, like

• ... BC-BCE notation is preferred for articles primarily on topics related to currently-practiced non-Christian religions (including non-Abrahamic religions, non-Christian Abrahamic religions, and atheism), Jehovah's Witnesses, and for articles on general religious topics that include both Christian and non-Christian content, and for articles on atheism. ...

There is such a thing as trying too hard. I think you are saying much too much in the third portion of the proposed text. It imposes a level of detail in what is preferred (after saying that WP has no preference) that will be seen as pov and will be difficult to enforce. Unless that text is radically simplified, I think I would prefer the status quo. In any event, the "do not change without consensus" point should have a prominent place near the top of the statement, and (as previously mentioned) a warning template should be created regarding violations of the policy. Hertz1888 (talk) 18:48, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

"BC-BCE notation" is a typo. In context, it has to mean "BCE-CE notation". Art LaPella (talk) 23:17, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

The hot academic debates on this topic have cooled down, and most academics now omit "AD" whenever possible, and either use "BCE" or read "BC" as "before the Christian era". - Dank (push to talk) 16:09, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

I was going to add this to the earlier thread, but will put it here. I certainly don't like the proposal in that thread at all. My experience is that most changes are from BCE/CE to BC/AD. I've seen a number of IPs and some accounts making multiple unexplained era changes in this direction but not the other way. In fact I've been discussing one of these with WP Editor 2011. I doubt that many of them know about WP:ERA of course. In fact right now I'm in a discussion with him about whether once a change has been made, discussed or not, it becomes the 'default' after a period of time and a discussion is needed to change it back. Say a 9 year old article started with one, and five years ago was changed to the other. I'd argue that you can't just change it back quoting WP:ERA but need a discussion. In fact, on active articles I'd say a year is long enough for it to be 'default'. I think we could use some guidance on this although that might be pre-empted by this discussion - or maybe not. It might avoid some edit wars if we give some guidance on this. Dougweller (talk) 15:29, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm indebted to Dougweller for introducing me to this discussion. I don't want to go over old ground, other than underlining his sense that most changes of Era dates are the work of drive-by editors, generally without user names, often leaving no explanation for the change. Where there is a rare explanation, there seems to be a genuine perception that BCE is a typo for BC; in other cases it may be a wish for monocultural conformity. I am, therefore, very much in favour of some mention in the guidelines of the need to avoid the latter. Just because the English language has currently such a widespread use does not necessarily mean that those who employ it wish to subscribe to all the conventions of countries where it is the home language. It needs to be repeated over and over that WP is for all people and everything possible should be done to avoid giving them a sense of exclusion.

I'd like to take up kwami's impression here that Hindus aren't bothered by the Era issue. I belong to a Dharmic faith myself (that's Buddhist, Hindu, Jain, Sikh) and know how ready my Dharma brothers and sisters are to express their frustration at culturally colonial suppositions about them and their preferences when they find a sympathetic ear. It's a question, really, of asking the right question - not 'Do you mind?' but 'Which would you prefer?'

Finally, how do we establish consensus for change of Era in an article? Is it necessary to open the same kind of debate as here on just this point in every case? Or is it enough to suggest an editorial standard for an article on its talk page, which may include reasons for Era preference, and see if there is comment? As I think I see from the discussion above, the preference is for clear guidelines but avoidance of a draconian and prescriptive approach. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 16:40, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

A talk page discussion is quite enough; everything does not need to come here. Stretching a consensus on one page to cover other related pages that were not notified of the discussion may be dubious though. Johnbod (talk) 15:51, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with that both of your comments. The situation is that the very last edit at Talk:Aesop Fables (part of a discussion called "General guidelines on creating and editing Aesop Fable articles" reads "One other thing. Since articles involve a wide range of dates, and many countries and cultures for which Christian dating is inappropriate, all dates should be given as Common Era (B/CE). Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 10:36 am, 29 April 2011, Friday (UTC+1)" No one responded to that, and the editor made the change to Aesop. WP Editor 2011 somehow came to the article recently and changed it back, with the edit summary "Corrected ongoing style issue/rule breach. That change has never been discussed, let alone agreed to, on the talk page" and there's been a minor edit war since but no discussion on the talk page. Dougweller (talk) 17:37, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

There has however been a discussion at Talk:Aesop about BC/BCE and 3 editors support a change to BCE. WP Editor 2001 doesn't seem willing to take part in the 'poll', citing Wikipedia:NOPOLLS which doesn't apply since this 'poll' is the response to a discussion initiated in February but which only received responses in the last few days, but is now being discussed. If an editor is going to take that stance we'll get nowhere. Dougweller (talk) 17:47, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Another stab at it

Here's a stab using something even more genteel than "preferred", merely calling for consideration.

• Consideration should be given on topics that are primarily about a currently-held specific religious belief or about the history, practices, and personages whose import derives from such a belief as to whether the use of BC/AD dating would create an improper non-neutral POV. For such topics where the belief's adherents do not consider Jesus divine or who object to BC/AD dating, use of BC/AD may create such a POV.

Thoughts? --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:02, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Too hectoring. Tells me how I'm supposed to position myself morally in relation to a style convention. How about:

• The era convention should be appropriate to the topic. The BC/AD convention has Christian connotations that may be incongruous with the content of an article, particularly those dealing with another religion or culture, in which case BCE/CE may be preferred.
  • No preference is given to either BC/AD or BCE/CE in articles dealing with historical Western culture up to the 20th century. In such articles, do not arbitrarily change an established era style unless there are reasons specific to the content. If the change is opposed by another editor, seek consensus on the talk page. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:03, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

While I don't see the hectoring you do, I do like your general phrasing. I'm not clear about the 20th century division; do we have reason for preference for BCE/CE beyond the 20th century? I'm also trying to find a way that the concerns includes topics of atheism (which is not a religion, but may be considered a religious belief) and also may include Christian groups that avoid AD themselves. Having said that, the only example I know of the latter is the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I don't know that there are specific JW articles that have particular reason to invoke such date coding at all... although I guess they would when discussing JW beliefs about the birth of Jesus. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:36, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

You're right; the time parameter should go. "Historical" is probably sufficient. My main point is that we shouldn't try to anticipate all the possible reasons or objections. I think it's sufficient to state in the guideline that the era convention should be appropriate to the subject matter. The sub-guideline simply clarifies that by definition either convention will be appropriate to historical Western culture; that excludes leaves it up to consensus regarding the contemporary West, broadly construed as the last hundred years, and prehistory. Cynwolfe (talk) 23:05, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

We definitely need more guidance, and something like this looks good. I'll note that one problem I've just discovered is an editor adding 'AD' to articles that didn't have any era in them, and this is apparently being done to give AD priority. Any suggestions as to what to do about this? Dougweller (talk) 15:17, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd say that's already covered by "Do not use CE or AD unless the date or century would be ambiguous without it (e.g. "The Norman Conquest took place in 1066" not 1066 CE nor AD 1066)." --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:03, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to go ahead with this as soon as possible. Is the discussion at Talk:Apollo#Talk:Apollo sufficient for the change just made by WP Editor 2011? Dougweller (talk) 12:31, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

I'd welcome the suggested changes. Haploidavey (talk) 17:32, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Looks good to go to me. --Nat Gertler (talk) 19:25, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

It's stupid. BC/AD creates a POV no more than the days of the week, months of the year or the planets, all of which are named after other gods. For Wikipedia on a policy page to suggest that other religions should be offended by the standard English language way of writing dates, which is the way it's always been, would get these people worked up for nothing. Nat Gerler, your suggestion is a ploy to encourage foreign minority groups to bastardise the Queen's English. (WP Editor 2011 (talk) 03:05, 4 June 2012 (UTC))

If you wish to discuss the editing of the guideline, this would be a good place to do it. If you wish to discuss whatever motivations you wish to make up for me, my talk page might be a better place to do it if you need to do it at all. You'll find a link to my talk page at the end of this message. As for the names of the days of the week and other such things, I cannot point to non-trivial groups who avoid those names in English; I can point to sizable ones that avoid AD dating, and have been for decades. They perceive a POV in that format. --Nat Gertler (talk) 03:56, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I was indeed discussing the editing of the guideline. Just because some people perceive a POV doesn't mean all minority groups do. Wikipedia has nothing to gain by encouraging people to feel offended by the English language. (WP Editor 2011 (talk) 04:04, 4 June 2012 (UTC))

Relevant discussions about WP Editor 2011 are at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Akhilleus reported by User:WP Editor 2011 (Result: ) and his talk page. This editors' edits seem to be a textbook example of why any changes in era need to be made clear in the edit summary (ie not hidden by "grammar and links" or "adding information", and an illustration of the problem when people like WP Editor 2011 deliberately search for changes they can make (not my claim, WP Editor says "I was already planning to stop searching for chances to uphold that rule as soon as the issue with Mzilikazi is resolved." Note that the changes searched for always result in a change from BCE/CE to BC/AD. I still feel that if an article has been stable for some time, even if the original change wasn't discussed, simply reverting back isn't a good idea. And what is the meaning of comments about "foreign minority groups" and about the Queen's English? Do I have to bring up examples of reliably published Christian theologians using BCE/CE? They aren't that hard to find. Dougweller (talk) 05:41, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

An update from the edit warring noticeboard: "The reporter, WP Editor 2011, is blocked for thirty-six hours for edit-warring and repeated violations of WP:ERA despite warnings to stop.". Dougweller (talk) 06:02, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

WP Editor 2011 seems to be referring to NatGertler's original proposal, and not to the alternative wording I proposed. Maybe we should be clearer about which version we're trying to implement? My goal was to remove the element of moral hectoring and not try to anticipate all possible offense that might be taken. For me, the two main points should be stated in the positive, and not as a prohibition: the convention should be appropriate to the topic. The sub-guideline is intended to clarify that either convention is appropriate for the historical West, and that era style in these articles will be based on established usage and consensus. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:08, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

WP Editor 2011 seems to be referring to a version that only exists within his mind, written by a version of NatGertler that only exists within his mind. Given that consensus is not unanimity, and given that that particular editor has currently disqualified himself from responding (and has done so out of violation of this guideline), I don't see particularly reason to wait on this until he is taken out of the penalty box. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:23, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

So then, is this ok:

• The era convention should be appropriate to the topic. The BC/AD convention has Christian connotations that may be incongruous with the content of an article dealing with another religion or culture, in which case BCE/CE may be preferred.
  • No preference is given to either BC/AD or BCE/CE in articles dealing with historical Western culture. In such articles, do not arbitrarily change an established era style unless there are reasons specific to the content. If the change is opposed by another editor, seek consensus on the talk page.

My only problem is that we are clearly trying to prevent edit wars and maybe we don't give enough guidance in the first paragraph to do this in the situations covered there. Dougweller (talk) 17:15, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I have a problem with that too, and other reservations. I believe the primary purpose of rewriting the policy should be to assert firmly that the style should not be changed at will, and then to explain why not and offer some guidance. I find myself repeatedly dealing with those who apparently (sometimes explicitly) think that by changing BCE/CE to BC/AD they are correcting mistakes, or who make the changes solely out of personal preference. It wastes editorial time having to explain over and over that nothing is "broken" that needs "fixing". It would be very useful having this stated up top in [[WP:ERA]], and to have a template warning notice ready to use. A similar situation exists with WP:ENGVAR, where users of UK or US English encountering the opposite variety for the first time will "correct" it. Yes, there are edit warriors too (some of whom become abusive when challenged), and the policy should especially have teeth in it to counter them. The proposed wording helps define what is appropriate to various contexts. It needs first of all to discourage casual changes without, as the policy used to say, a "style-independent" reason, and editorial consensus. It now says, "Reasons for the proposed change should be specific to the content of the article; a general preference for one style over another is not a valid reason"; this is buried deep within the section. It, or its successor text, needs to be strengthened and prominently placed at or near the beginning. Hertz1888 (talk) 18:29, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Hertz1888 on emphasizing the preservation of the established era style, and seeking a consensus for change before making the change. I would welcome a template that identified the article's era style to editors at the top, as well as what variety of English is used. But two things:

• I hear what Dougweller is saying, but I just find it impractical to anticipate all the possible ways to give offense or to determine what's "appropriate." All the efforts I've seen will only lead to more wiki-lawyering and looking for loopholes, which is the opposite of what you want. If we direct editors to stop and think about the possible Christian connotations of BC/AD before using that era convention, sensible editors will get it (or ask others for an opinion); users who aren't really here to create a good encyclopedia never will. The problem is disruptive behavior, which can't be addressed through MOS. What I see happening on talk pages is that a preponderance of editors involved with an article will affirm a particular era style, and one or two editors (who almost always have had nothing else to do with the article) won't take no for an answer. Channels for dealing with disruptive behavior are too complicated and star chamber-ish. Our emphasis on courtly etiquette and the prohibition against "canvassing" keep serious editors from organizing ad hoc to address disruptive individuals. That said, let me suggest that we keep the guideline simple, but supplement it with a neutral essay that illustrates at length what's appropriate with examples.
• If it's OK, I restored the word "historical." My thinking is that an article dealing, for instance, with the Neolithic in a geographical area that happens to lie within "the West" isn't really part of Western culture. That is, prehistory is covered by the main guideline, not the sub-guideline. Articles on the contemporary West (which would rarely use an era designation anyway) should also have an era convention that depends on its appropriateness to the subject matter, and would be covered under the main guideline. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:21, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Era, from the top

I was wondering whether we should look at the section more holistically. Following is an effort to incorporate the concerns and suggestions above by editing the whole section. Cynwolfe (talk) 00:42, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

• Years are numbered according to the traditional western Dionysian era (Common Era)Western Dionysian era (also referred to as Common Era) .
  • AD and BC are the traditional ways of referring to these eras. CE and BCE are common in some academic scholarly and religious writing. Either convention may be appropriate, but the topic of the article should be taken into consideration. The BC/AD convention has Christian implications that may be incongruous with the content of some articles, particularly those dealing with another religion or culture, in which case BCE/CE may be preferred. In articles dealing primarily with historical Western culture, no preference is given to either BC/AD or BCE/CE. (It might be helpful here to point to an essay, one with lots of examples.)
    • Do not change the era style in an article unless there are reasons specific to its content. Seek consensus on the talk page before making the change. (Alt wording for the preceding sentence: If the change is opposed or reverted by another editor, seek consensus on the talk page before making another era-related edit.) Open the discussion under a subhead that uses the word "era". Briefly state why the established style is inappropriate for the article in question. A personal or categorical preference for one era style over the other is not a reason. Having a personal or categorical preference for one era style over the other is not justification for making a change.
    • BCE and CE or BC and AD are written in upper case, unspaced, without periods (full stops), and separated from the year number by a space (5 BC, not 5BC). It is advisable to use a non-breaking space.
    • AD may appear before or after a year (AD 106, 106 AD); the other abbreviations appear after (106 CE, 3700 BCE, 3700 BC).
    • Do not use CE or AD unless the date or century would be ambiguous without it (e.g. "The Norman Conquest took place in 1066" not 1066 CE nor AD 1066). On the other hand, "Plotinus was a philosopher living at the end of the 3rd century AD" will avoid unnecessary confusion. Also, in "He did not become king until 55 CE" the era marker makes it clear that "55" does not refer to his age. Alternatively, "He did not become king until the year 55."
    • Use either the BC-AD or the BCE-CE notation consistently within the same article. Exception: do not change direct quotations.

As I thought this over, it seemed that we couldn't achieve the emphasis Herz1888 recommended without looking at the section as a whole. Just an attempt. Cynwolfe (talk) 00:42, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for putting this together and for accommodating my suggestions, along with others'. I like the new version a lot. It looks commendably well thought-out, clear and well-integrated, with logical flow. I think the alt wording may be too open an invitation for making changes. Also, it would require quicker reaction from other editors than a change proposed on an article's talk page. Other than that, just a couple of very small points (really no big deal): "academic" writing might alternatively be termed "scholarly", and a "general" preference might be expanded to a "general or personal" preference. Thanks again. Hertz1888 (talk) 02:01, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Although the phrase "space or non-breaking space" is not a change, as chief contradiction nagger I point out that this conflicts with WP:NBSP: "It is advisable to use a non-breaking space ... in expressions in which figures and abbreviations (or symbols) are separated by a space (e.g. 17 kg, AD 565, 2:50 pm)". Art LaPella (talk) 02:23, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

You could just say "...when people close to the article's subject take offence from BC/AD and vice versa" or something along those lines instead of trying to guess or even worse, suggest, when and why people would be offended. After all, most people don't even know what AD stands for, let alone perceive it as having a Christian bias. As I said before, it's the same as the planets and the calendar. Saying "common in some writing" is a bit dubious; we all know it's the minority, so perhaps "appears in some writing" would be more truthful and less ambiguous. (WP Editor 2011 (talk) 13:25, 6 June 2012 (UTC))

Running based on "offence" would be a poor manner of setting things up; the goal here is NPOV whether or not anyone is specifically taking offence. To run off of offence means that someone can come along claiming that a page on British Jewish history offends because it uses the abbreviation for Common Era (which is obviously bastardised English compare to a good, Queen's English phrase like "Anno Domini") If you can find some substantially-currently-used alternative to the names of the planets and the days of the week that you wish to see included in appropriate circumstances, you are free to put them forward. And yes, it is the more common form in some writing; at least by quick inspection, it seems the more common form in academic historical writing, for example. I'm not sure why hiding the commonness would be more "truthful". --Nat Gertler (talk) 13:58, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

It would be helpful if WP Editor 2011 and Nat Gertler would focus quite narrowly on the wording of the guidelines, in the way that others commenting here have. These kinds of comments are not actionable. In particular, I would like to see Nat Gertler draft the aforementioned essay on the propriety of era style. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:23, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

First, I would insert the word "valid" in the following phrase: "preference for one era style over the other is not a valid reason." Second, I would make an explicit exception for quotations when saying that the era notation should be used "consistently within the same article".Coastside (talk)

I guess I'm thinking that a reason is by definition valid, as distinguished from either a rationale or whim. You wouldn't say "A personal or categorical preference for one era style over the other is an invalid reason," which is the same as "is not a valid reason." "Valid" allows us to argue over what is valid/invalid reasoning. As it stands, we're simply declaring that this is not a reason that can serve as a basis for the discussion. To WP Editor 2011, I would say that my goal is to avoid combative, emotive language that assumes people should take offense over a style convention. You may need to look more closely at the proposed wording: it simply says that BC/AD have Christian implications that may be incongruous with some types of content. It also says flatly that there is no argument against BC/AD in articles dealing with historical Western culture.

I've tried to implement the other changes. In addition, I've replaced "general" (a word I decided was meaningless here) with "categorical," meaning: keep your reasons specific to the article at hand, and don't argue on a categorical premise such as "BC/AD should not be used in any article about any non-Christian religion." I moved the sub-guideline on Western culture to follow naturally after the caution that BC/AD might be inappropriate to some contexts. It then struck me that the detailed guideline on when to use an era designation at all came before the basic info on style, so I reordered that as well. I used the wording at WP:NBSP to make the point about the space, and linked to MOS:QUOTE for the era style in direct quotations. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:16, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Looking good! I don't feel strongly about "valid reason" vs. "reason", but I did kind of trip up when reading it. I immediatlely thought, "of course it's a reason, just not a good one." Perhaps "sufficient reason" would be better?Coastside (talk) 14:27, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I see what you're saying: I expect a modifier there too. Maybe that means "reason" isn't the right word. "Is not grounds for change"? "Is not a rationale for change"? "Don't even bring this up if that's the best you've got"? Cynwolfe (talk) 14:33, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Several edit conflicts later - we do need a modifier, we need to make it clear that personal preference, or finding one usage offensive, is not a sufficient reason for change. I'd like to include the offensive bit as I see it a lot, and it is rarely a good reason for a change. Dougweller (talk) 14:53, 6 June 2012 (UTC

How about "Having a personal or categorical preference for one era style over the other is not justification for making a change." Coastside (talk) 15:03, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Should the intro read something like "Under both conventions year 1 is that of the birth of Jesus (actually most likely born between 6 and 4 BC (6 and 4 BCE)); thus the distinction is one of form rather than meaning"? Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 17:40, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

There is no part of the convention of BCE/CE that says that the year 1 is the birth of Jesus; it is merely consistent with the extant numbering system (and all that becomes even more confusing when you suggest that Year 1 wasn't the birth of Jesus). None of that helps with the person trying to decide whether BC is proper in an article. Would what you're trying to say would be better said as "The two systems use the same numeration for the years; the distinction between the two is one of terminology"? (Note: I am hectic for the next few days and may not be as involved in this discussion as I'd want to be.) --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:31, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I just changed the wikilink to Dionysian era - it was pointing to Dionysius Exiguus. This seems to have been a simple error. You need change this in your proposed paragraph above, i.e., [[Dionysius ExiguusDionysian era|Dionysian era (Common Era)]]. Now that I look at it, this wikilink treats "Dyonysian Era" and "Common Era" as the same, which is why "Common Era" is in parentheses. Since these are not equivalent (that's the point of this discussion, after all), and they have their own wiki pages, shouldn't we wikilink them separately? For example, maybe this should say "Dionysian era (also referred to as Common era)" or at minimum "Dionysian era (Common era)."Coastside (talk) 19:28, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I made one more typo correction: "Western" should be capitalized in "Western Dionysian era". Again, you need to change this in your proposed paragraph above, i.e., "wWestern".Coastside (talk) 19:28, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for checking the links and such, Coastside. I confess I copied that stuff mindlessly. You may make the edits, or I'll look back at this in a couple of hours (in a dash now). The links that Coastside is pointing out explain what the era conventions represent; I see no reason to review that here. People won't read and follow guidelines if too great a sea of text daunts them, or if they feel lectured at. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:41, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I misunderstood - I thought there was a proposal to include "The BC/AD convention has Christian implications that may be incongruous with the content of some articles"; since CE/BCE is also based on year1=birth of Jesus, this has identical "Christian implications", which should presumably be made clear, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 20:51, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

First, the Christian implications of AD/BC are not identical to CE/BCE. The former are abbreviations of anno domini and before Christ, so together they can be read to mean an acknowledgement that Jesus is lord and the Messiah. The CE/BCE terminology implicity acknowledges the importance of Jesus and/or his followers, since they were influential enough to spread a calendar convention throughout the world, but does not explicitly recognize any of the religious titles that Christians ascribe to Jesus.

Second, the inventor of the convention, Dionysius Exiguus, wrote that he was commemorating the Incarnation and it is unclear whether he thought that was the Nativity which is celebrated December 25th, or the Annunciation which is celebrated March 1. Arguments have been made that he thought Jesus was born in 2 BC, 1 BC, or AD 1. This is possible because several beginning-of-year conventions were in use in Dionysius' time, and it isn't clear which one he was using for the Incarnation calculation. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:06, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

'Tis either obfuscation (a rose by any other name) or closet colonialism - rather than "in the year of our lord" it's "in the year of your lord to, our common lord", partially disguised by adding an E, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 21:16, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Made the changes as dicussed (links and capitalization of "Western") Coastside (talk) 21:29, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you - and a big improvement, having these two articles side by side for the background, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 22:46, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Does one dare to read the ensuing silence as tacit approval? Should the guidelines above go live? Cynwolfe (talk) 18:11, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

From "Do not change the era style in an article", yes, with User:Coastside's amendments to the links having now clarified the background, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 18:39, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I would say we reached a reasonable concensus. WP:BB Coastside (talk) 18:53, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I concede. Er, consensify. Oh, whatever, I can accept it as it is! --Nat Gertler (talk) 19:13, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Looks good. A big improvement over the preceding versions. Mojoworker (talk) 22:03, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

You yourself said "the links that Coastside is pointing out explain what the era conventions represent; I see no reason to review that here", so I'm surprsied you went against that in your update; this seems a POV rendering of only one side of the arguments in the articles linked; do you want to at least include "explicit" before Christian? OUP clearly has no problem with AD/BC for non-Western: [1]; what's good enough for them should be good enough for us? Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 21:21, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean. The goal is to remove personal feelings from the process. Either convention is acceptable; in the context of some topics, BC/AD calls attention to itself as perhaps incongruous or anachronistic. (This is not my opinion; this is how I'm understanding consensus here.) I didn't see anyone suggesting that the entire paragraph be struck. Many people wanted to elaborate on it by calling "BC/AD" offensive; this to me just opens the door for subjective arguments, rather than focusing on (A) not changing without consensus, and (B) for new articles, consider which convention might be most appropriate for the subject matter. By definition, we said, there is no argument against using BC/AD in articles dealing primarily with historical Western culture. My point was that the links clarify why BC/AD might be considered more aggressively Christian than BCE/CE. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:43, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Please discuss this, Maculosae, as you seem to be the only one who objects to that paragraph. I agree that no one should be offended by BC/AD, nor by BCE/CE. But we're trying to work with what we can all live with. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:59, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree, where was the consensus to excise that paragraph? It disappeared while I was adding my comment, the version I said "looks good" had the additional verbiage that Maculosae has since removed. (edit) And has now been restored – I guess that brings us to 'D' in BRD. Mojoworker (talk) 22:19, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry if I was slightly brusque and editing from a mobile device clearly leads to typos etc; I've just checked a load of books, mainly about Classics, and I'm struggling to find any using the (B)CE convention; re East Asia, The Cambridge History of Japan uses BC/AD, as does the 30 volume survey of Japanese Art by Weatherhill, so do various Kodansha publications, and it looks like the Cambridge History of China also likes BC/AD; other books re Japan by OUP and Blackwell and some US university presses seem to be using B(CE); I thought the point was to leave it open, following our sources, but to discourage drive-by editors from changing the existing convention; including in the guideline the wording "The BC/AD convention has Christian implications that may be considered incongruous with the content of some articles, particularly those dealing with another religion or culture, in which case BCE/CE may be preferred. In articles dealing primarily with historical Western culture, no preference is given to either BC/AD or BCE/CE" seems to proselytize the (B)CE convention; also, the fundamental "Christian implications" reside not in the signifier but the signified, as per your edit here; including some such text - "both systems take the same religious event as the turning point of the era" - that is, calling a fig a fig, might help clarify, disarm, and prevent such flare-ups, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 23:37, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

(Though my preference, as per the above responses to your tacit approval query, would be to leave it at the bare links - attempting to distill the various arguments, counter-arguments, historical positions etc may be beyond a one-liner intro), Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 23:47, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Cynwolfe, you were wrong to edit your changes into the article at such an early stage. The so-called "silence" only lasted for a few hours and there were still unresolved issues. Editors shouldn't have to repeat themselves unnecessarily. I agree with Maculosae that your wording would proselytise CE. The whole idea of CE is to avoid hypothetical offence to people outside Western society; if this style guide specifically recommends CE for such cases then why should there be a choice for Western articles? Surely they should just use BC/AD. The suggested wording would lead all articles to eventually use CE. You also ignored what I said about CE being "common". CE is rare; I've only seen it twice outside Wikipedia and everyone else here knows it's not common. (WP Editor 2011 (talk) 02:07, 8 June 2012 (UTC))

In reality, use of BCE is currently quite common; it's the majority of uses in certain circles, and a sizable portion of usage overall. Doing a Google book search for "century bce" vs. "century bc" ("century" chosen as an easy way to avoid other uses of BC and BCE) and limiting it to books published in the 21st century, BC is more frequent but it's 56% to 44%. And no, it's not just a matter for those outside of Western society. --Nat Gertler (talk) 02:47, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I ignored it, WP Editor 2011, because it's impossible to take your statement seriously. If you've only seen CE twice outside Wikipedia, then forgive me, but you've done very little reading in scholarship that deals with the period of, say, 5th century BC to 5th century AD, which is the period I most often research and write about for WP. Your claim indicates that you lack familiarity with era usage in a broad range of RS that deal with historical topics. BCE/CE is quite common in scholarship dealing with classical antiquity, the archaeology of the Mediterranean and the Near East, Bronze and Iron Age Europe, Jewish history, and even early Christianity. Your position that it's "rare" or even uncommon appears to be based on what is easily demonstrated to be a factual inaccuracy. Perhaps you don't see it because you don't read materials dealing with the periods when the era needs to be designated? My experience is that in scholarship of the last 20 years it's become more common than BC/AD. Again, I myself prefer to use BC/AD, and I don't want to be lectured on the moral or theological significance of what I consider to be merely conventional. But I've become aware on WP talk pages that some people find it jarring in some contexts. I recognize that religionists and atheists want to fight to the death about this, and dictate to the rest of us what we must do, but the rest of us just want a sane compromise that lets everybody move on. Cynwolfe (talk) 03:07, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

In fact, WP Editor 2011, let me recommend that you take a look at this passage. Cynwolfe (talk) 03:13, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Everyone else here doesn't know that BCE/CE is uncommon. I see it all the time in scientific and historical writing. However, that shouldn't matter; the relative prevalence of one style or another is not something that should govern how our guideline is framed. With NPOV firmly in mind, this is not a "winner take all" situation where the recommended style is put to a vote. I fail to see how "no preference is given" proselytizes for anything, and I disagree that only those outside Western society deserve consideration and a choice. For some in the West, BCE/CE is more faith neutral than BC/AD, even if the two systems share a common year-numbering convention; labels do matter. The excised section of text says just enough, says it well, lets us move on, and should be restored. Hertz1888 (talk) 03:20, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

But sadly for your argument the excised text doesn't say "no preference is given", it suggests one may be preferred, that's the point; I'm of course in no way questioning that (B)CE is widespread, I was just attempting to show that plenty of reputable publishers are happy with either, whatever the context; re your 'labels do matter', there seems to be some regression here from Annals XV.18 dum adspectui consulitur spreta conscientia, "with attention to surface form, and the neglect of underlying facts" - sadly for those attempting to be "commendably inclusive", this is but lipstick on a pig; if you want to summarize the long arguments, why not cut to the quick and point out what no amount of euphemism can disguise? At the very least, you need an "explicit" in there; and yes, it would be great to move on, but isn't the whole point to forestall repetition of the ludicrous time-wasting on the Apollo talk page - it may be worth a little extra effort to get it right here, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 05:23, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I've restored it WP Editor 2011's removal - we can of course change it still, but WP Editor 2011 should not so far as I'm concerned be editing the page after recently being blocked for edit warring over this subject. Dougweller (talk) 05:36, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand WP Editor 2011's arguments about a ploy to "encourage foreign minority groups to bastardise the Queen's English." or " offence to people outside Western society". Who are these people outside of Western society? Maculosae, I disagree with your suggestion that this "seems to proselytize the (B)CE convention" but it appears that your main desire here is to add 'explicit' before Christian, am I right? If so, why? I can't see at the moment how that will help in any discussions over era style. Dougweller (talk) 05:55, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Previously we had "both, ok" now we have "one better than other", a retrograde step in my opinion; but saying, as per the guidelines as they currently stand, that BC/AD has Christian connotations suggests the other convention does not, even though of course it does, since it is based on the same religious event; either say this or, if you prefer to write it out in some kind of inclusivity statement, at least acknowledge the underlying and not introduce a false dichotomy, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 06:23, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I'll just put these here for the sake of discussion:

1. From The SBL handbook of style: for ancient Near Eastern, Biblical, and early Christian studies page 69 by the Society of Biblical Literature: "8.1.2 ERAS - The preferred style is B.C.E. and C.E. If you use A.D. and B.C., remember that A.D. precedes the date and B.C. follows it."
2. From Writing About History at dailywritingtips.com "Most writers of history have adopted the notations BCE and CE."
3. The Christian Writer’s Manual of Style p. 135: 'The scholarly abbreviations CE (“common era”) and BCE (“before the Common Era”) are synonymous with AD (anno Domini, “year of our Lord”) and BC (“before Christ”) respectively and are used primarily when a writer feels the reader might be offended by the christocentric forms, as in writing for Jewish, Islamic, or secular readers. Most Western scholars still prefer AD and BC as the most commonly understood by the greatest number of readers in English, though CE and BCE are rapidly gaining ground.' and p. 389: 'In recent years the abbreviations BCE (“before the Common Era”) and CE (“Common Era”) have gained currency as more secular alternatives to the traditional AD and BC, the specifically Christian emphasis of which some people find offensive.'

Mojoworker (talk) 06:43, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Let's just stick to the issue at hand shall we, Dougweller? Your petty personal attacks don't belong here. (WP Editor 2011 (talk) 07:14, 8 June 2012 (UTC))

Maculosae, I don't agree that the new guidelines say one is better than the other. The guidelines say that BC/AD may not be the better choice in all contexts. An editor I know preferred BC/AD on the principle of "most common" for general readers, but acknowledged that in articles focusing on some aspect of Judaica, BCE/CE would probably seem less incongruous. I find Mojoworker's passages here to be quite pertinent, especially from the Christian Writer's Manual of Style. I don't see how it's a bad thing in creating a new article to think about whether one era style is more appropriate to the content than another. Cynwolfe (talk) 07:23, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree, I don't see them as saying one is better than the other. Maculosae, BC/AD are named after one religion's god, and can be seen to endorse that. BCE/CE don't do that. WP Editor 2011, that was not a personal attack, it was my opinion about your reversion so soon after a block. A personal attack would be, for instance, calling someone a liar. Oh hell, just noticed you've reverted again. That's exactly what I meant, now you've reverted twice. You still haven't answered my questions, but I will accept that they are probably irrelevant to this discussion and not ask them again. Dougweller (talk) 09:13, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

It might be helpful to explore a test case vs. focusing only on the wording. In other words, let's see if we can agree on what behavior we want from editors and then see if we can agree on how to provide guidelines to encourage this behavior. I'm not sure we agree on the former, so it is difficult to reach a consensus on the latter. Here's a hypothetical test case: someone creates a new article titled Jews, Money, and the Talmud. I got this title from a blog post at www.jewishhistory.org with that title. Let's say the author (we'll call him the author) includes dates without specifying either "BC/AD" or "BCE/CE". For example, as in the post referred to above, there is a sentence that reads, "[T]he Talmud was written in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th centuries when the rest of the world had no way of dealing with these problems." Another editor (we'll call him the editor) then comes along and finds it unclear whether this means BC or AD and clarifies the sentence so that it reads, "The Talmud was written in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th centuries AD when the rest of the world had no way of dealing with these problems." The original author then revises the text to use CE instead AD on the grounds that it is an article about Jewish history and therefore shouldn't have implicit references to Christ. They then get into an edit war about the issue, with the original author arguing that 1) he was the first major contributor to the article and 2) it's offensive to use "AD" instead of "CE" in an article on Jewish history, and the editor saying he was the first editor to introduce either term and therefore the original author has no basis for changing it from "AD" to "CE" (they are equivalent after all, so there should be no preference shown either way). Who is right, the author or the editor? What behavior do we want the MOS guidelines on this to encourage? Coastside (talk) 09:01, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

If we want to post every two-bit publisher's recommendations, then I think these are more authoritative than dailywritingtips.com: Blackwell: [2], JEA [3], USC [4], etc all preferring AD/BC; and of the big boys, Cambridge University Press [5] and Oxford University Press, [6], via New Hart's Rules 11.6.3, both recommend AD/BC; fine to have both ok, but what's good enough for OUP and CUP should suffice for us; the key point to stress to avoid edit wars is that no era style is more appropriate, since what is signified is identical; the articles linked for the background seem to cover this quite well, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 09:14, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

As I've said, I disagree that "what is signified is identical". When you say "should suffice for us" it appears that you are suggesting we endorse AD/BC but hopefully I've misunderstood you there. When you say "no era style is more appropriate", do you mean that a discussion on an article talk page shouldn't discuss which era style is more appropriate for the article? Dougweller (talk) 09:51, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, don't worry - the point was that these two find nought inappropriate so why should we? re User:Coastside's example above, the problem I have is "it is an article about Jewish history and therefore shouldn't have implicit references to Christ" - call it AD, CE, or a heffalump, it's still x years from the birth (or incarnation if you prefer) of Jesus; the number relates it to Jesus; it's all about Jesus... there seems to be doubt expressed above that some users even know what AD means, bizarre if true, but whatever; I think by not only advocating one but suggesting that the other is inappropriate before of its Christian implications, when both are about you know who, seems perverse; if you want to move away from the both ok model at least explain that it's all about superficialities, that both are based on exactly the same Christian event, include some of the "criticisms" content from the linked articles; anyway, I'm becoming repetitious and seem to have successfully formed a consensus of one, so I guess I'm going to back away at this point, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 10:28, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

WP Editor: please gain consensus here before removing the text at issue. And you are not in a good position to edit-war. Tony (talk) 10:30, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Tony1, you don't know what you're talking about. I didn't remove anything and I certainly wasn't edit-warring. I undid Cynwolfe's addition of material that was done prematurely, before consensus had been established. There has been extensive discussion about the unresolved issues since, proving that I was right to do so. You may care to read WP:NPA before falsely accusing someone of "edit-war[ring]" again. (WP Editor 2011 (talk) 11:06, 8 June 2012 (UTC))

• WP Editor ... why not relax into it? You're coming over as angry, which is not helping anything. Tony (talk) 12:51, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

MTL, you may not find there to be a difference a difference in incongruity between BC and BCE, but there are large groups of relevant folks who do not agree, that one is making a statement about both when Jesus was born and his divine status, and the other is just saying "hey, here's how people number dates", that there is a difference between calling something a common era and saying that it is a year of a lord, and that if there is a linkage it is a far less direct link and thus at least less incongruous. --Nat Gertler (talk) 13:37, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I concur with MTL on this. Saying both conventions are "about you know who" misses the point. There are people who don't want to use AD because of what the acronym means "Anno Domini" and they prefer to use "CE" because of that. It isn't reasonable to argue that since they both start in the same year these people shouldn't feel that way. They use a system that starts in the same year because they need to be consistent in the numbering of the years, that's all. Think about it, if they picked a different scheme, say absolute time in years from the beginning of the universe, who else would adopt their convention?" Coastside (talk) 15:09, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

WP Editor 2011, I would appreciate it if you would stop blaming me personally for taking the new guidelines live. I've been trying to work with the desired wording of both sides in drafting this; I myself am a regular user of BC/AD, and while I don't wish to impose that on others, I also don't want to be told I can't use it. There were multiple editors saying "looks good, let's move on." No one said clearly (Maculosae's point was unclear to me at the time) "no, wait, we're not ready." You've blamed me more than once, and it's evidence of how you make the issue personal and emotional. Stop it. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:30, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, I'd like to thank Coastside for the valiant attempt to focus on a test case. It's unfortunate that didn't lead to a more productive discussion. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:32, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

This addition to the guideline:

but the topic of the article should be taken into consideration. The BC/AD convention has Christian implications that may be considered incongruous with the content of some articles, particularly those dealing with another religion or culture, in which case BCE/CE may be preferred. In articles dealing primarily with historical Western culture, no preference is given to either BC/AD or BCE/CE.

is a statement, in Wikipedia's voice, addressed to Wikipedia editors, that AD/BC notation has Christian implications that are absent from the CE/BCE notation. It is not a statement that CE/BCE notation is free of Christian implications, just that there are additional implications with AD/BC. Since we normally ignore fringe groups and tiny minority positions, I think to decide if this statement is true we need to find out if there are a significant number of English-speaking readers who perceive this difference. I don't know where to look to find out how many such readers exist. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:59, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know how numerous they are, but they are certainly noisy, as I know anecdotally from talk-page experience. But your point is well taken. I think you've expressed what makes me queasy about that pronouncement. Please see following section. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:28, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Era-change justification

I've never been keen on introducing theology, morality, or political correctness into style guidelines, so I might be persuaded to support omitting the controversial portion of the new guidelines if we could come up with some succinctly stated examples of what might constitute justifiable era change under the guidelines as they currently appear live. (Could we all agree not to change them for the next 24 hours until end of day Monday, at least?)

After "either convention may be appropriate," the controversial passage is: but the topic of the article should be taken into consideration. The BC/AD convention has Christian implications that may be incongruous with the content of some articles, particularly those dealing with another religion or culture, in which case BCE/CE may be preferred. In articles dealing primarily with historical Western culture, no preference is given to either BC/AD or BCE/CE.

I propose an amendment to Either convention may be appropriate, but the context should be taken into consideration. Full stop, no further explanation. In my view, the next section (the one beginning in boldface) might just take care of the problem. Could we try to imagine directions era-change discussion might take? What if we were able to offer examples of justification for change (as with the Plotinus exemption)? Here are some examples I personally would find reasonable. These are for discussion; they are not proposed wording for any guidelines or examples.

1. Proposed era change. The article currently uses "BC/AD." However, it contains five direct quotations and a map that use BCE/CE. Since the body text would be easier to change, wouldn't the consistent use of BCE/CE be less confusing to readers?
2. Proposed era change. This stub is a transcription from a 19th-century encyclopedia, except for one change: the source used BC/AD, and in the one instance of era style in the stub, the WP transcriber changed it to BCE/CE. I'd like to develop this into a full-length article, but would prefer to use the BC/AD convention.
3. Proposed era change related to a move. This short article about the minor Roman consul named Publius Affilius Latro uses the BCE/CE style. It needs to be properly disambiguated from Publius Affilius Latro (consul 89 BC), Publius Affilius Latro (consul 8 AD), and Publius Affilius Latro (praetor 291 BC). This name appears on List of Roman consuls, which uses the BC/AD convention, and on the prosopographical page Affilia (gens), where it will be listed among other Publii Affilii Latrones who are all designated with BC/AD. I'd like to change the era convention to BC/AD and move the article to Publius Affilius Latro (consul 65 BC), so the inconsistency of era convention won't add to readers' understandable confusion about these figures.
4. Proposed era change related to content. The article uses the BC/AD style, but I've checked all the sources used to compile it, and 10 of the 12 used BCE/CE. The other two, though qualifying as RS, are pre-1950 and may not reflect current usage in this field of study (Judaic or Islamic studies, for instance).

Notice the absence of categorical rants about militant atheists or Christian dominion, or imagining that ancient Romans might be offended by the use of a Christian year-numbering system. Thoughts? Cynwolfe (talk) 16:28, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

We also need to look at examples of what constitutes "personal" ("I'm offended by being told Jesus should be my Lord") or "categorical" ('articles about non-Christian religions shouldn't use BC/AD"; "BCE/CE is a new-atheist plot"). Cynwolfe (talk) 16:43, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I like it; seems a sensible and very useful way of addressing the main problem, namely "era crusading"/drive-by changes, by indicating examples where a change might be considered legitimate; no real thoughts but looks good to me, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 17:35, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Two additional things I'd like to point out. The examples are era-neutral: you could take any one of them, and flip the style being argued for without changing any other wording. I should also credit Coastside for taking a positive rather than prohibitive approach. The emphasis here is meant to be on facilitating content creation. I do have a fourth example that might throw a wrench in the gears, and we need to look at Coastside's Jewish history example again, but I don't want to muddy the waters until there's more input on the general direction. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:08, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Fourth example. I've gone ahead and added the fourth, more difficult example. I'm assuming the first three would be relatively uncontroversial. The fourth addresses the issue of how to determine whether the era style is appropriate to the content of the article, without engaging in subjective "it's offensive" arguments. Notice the argument would be based neutrally on the usage of sources actually footnoted and used to compile the article (which we would explain if this example can generate a point of justification policy); you can't pad the argument by adding sources using another style convention to the Bibliography or Further reading sections, without the sources having actually affected the content of the article. You can't argue categorically that "modern scholarship on Jewish studies far more often uses BCE/CE," even if this is true. The argument must be specific to the content of the article in question. Example 4 is thus intended to support content creation. It affirms that creating content is how the era style is established. And if the example can be "translated" into a sub-guideline on how to justify a change, it would state that the era usage among the footnoted sources must demonstrate a clear preponderance in order to change an established style. It discourages drive-by editing based on personal or categorical preference, because it requires an editor to examine the footnotes and sources carefully, but it allows editors to make changes that reflect contemporary scholarly usage—but only if they're willing to use that scholarship to develop the article. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:06, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Again, seems eminently sensible, unobjectionable, and to the point, but I'm too asinine to proffer anything more, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 15:57, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Ditto, and then some. My input here has been minimal, because I'm tired out and easily confused these days, but if I've got the gist of the above, any amended era guidelines should encourage sourced, content-based editing and consistency within articles. Sounds good, and of course it's never going to be watertight. Or flame-proof. And we deal with each case on the merit of arguments put forward by those who wish to change the era system from whatever the current version happens to be. Thanks to everyone who has worked on this. (Just a couple of thoughts: where does that leave us in terms of WP:BRD? And if consensus fails, what's the default to be? The MOS guidelines intro still allows reversion to the first use. Someone suggested, someplace and some time ago, reverting to the version used (or preferred, for whatever reason) by the main contributor. Doug has suggested that when an article has been stable for a period of time, change is disruptive in the first place; I agree with that, but we seem to have moved on. Yes?) Haploidavey (talk) 16:29, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

As I understand it, no attempt to discuss means that you can revert, otherwise the guideline is meaningless. I still think that if it's been stable, reverting simply because there was no discussion, as has happened a number of times recently, is disruptive. Dougweller (talk) 16:56, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that. Yes, the most recent revert-binges were disruptive because the articles had been stable for some time, in some cases for years. That's the kind of thing I meant. Haploidavey (talk) 17:04, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

The guideline used to specify "first established," but I think at some point "first" got deleted. I miss those days. "Established" then at that time was defined by searching the edit history to find the first occurrence of an era designation. Tedious, but unambiguous. I did wonder whether the requirement to discuss before changing subverted boldness, or at least the spirit of "everyone can edit." I originally proposed two possible wordings on changing an established era, the other stating that if another editor reverted your era change, then no further action should be taken without consensus. And yes, I agree with Dougweller that if the discuss-first guideline is in place, any era change can and should be reverted—politely, since it's easy to be unaware of the controversies. Crafting succinct era-change justification sub-guidelines/examples may be tricky, but is perhaps a more neutral solution than trying to instill religious sensitivities, from either perspective. And as Maculosae pointed out above, it's probably worth the trouble now to forestall endless contention in future. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:21, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, Dougweller, although it will be understandable if an editor changes an era style once without discussing first, doing it again after being advised on correct procedure would establish a clear pattern of disruptive behavior that could be addressed more easily through our various tribunals. After an era consensus has been established, the article would benefit from a template stating which convention is used (visible at the top, I hope, only in edit mode so as to avoid further top-clutter). Cynwolfe (talk) 15:42, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Notice the absence of categorical rants about militant atheists or Christian dominion, or imagining that ancient Romans might be offended by the use of a Christian year-numbering system. - Now, there's a set of straw men for you if ever there was one... or do you care to point to any proposed guidelines that actually had the rants you specified? In any case, I think the suggested changes making an era change by default wrong are a bit too anti-editing. I am also concerned about guidelines relying to hard on the date formatting that the sources use, as that seems likely to encourage the stacking of sources, introducing more battle into the matter. --Nat Gertler (talk) 17:39, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

The idea is that the sources have to be cited in the footnotes; that is, sources must be used to build content. The ordinary provisions would apply: RS, undue, etc. I never said the guidelines ranted. I said we need to craft guidelines that put a lid on ranting in talk-page discussion. This lecturing back-and-forth regarding Jesus, atheism, and being personally offended is pointless and is inherently non-neutral, as it depends on the subjective judgement of editors. If you think this through, Nat, I think you'll see what it does. If an article was written using outdated (though still useful) sources such as the Catholic Encyclopedia, it should be updated with modern sources. If it's conventional among these sources to use BCE/CE (as is likely the case for articles dealing with Judaism, Islam, and any number of topics), and if the preponderance of sources uses that convention, it would argue for changing the era style in the article—but only if an editor were willing to focus on content development instead of using the article as a battleground for his or her preferred style. The idea is to discourage drive-by era changes. In some existing articles, it would be possible to argue for a change of era based on existing sources. I'm certainly open to other ways of doing this. But it's become evident to me that telling people how to "feel" about an era style, or to have a moral position regarding the era style, isn't the Wikipedian way to go. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:42, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not thrilled by using a preponderance of the sources. My concern is not so much for the article that has an established style as one that has a mixed style, or which adds the first mention of a BC year. It is unlikely that any one editor will have access t all the sources that were cited, so usually an editor adding the first BC date or cleaning up an article will not be able to determine what abbreviation a preponderance of the sources use. Also, if a discussion arises about changing the eri designation, but only some of the usage in the sources can be determined, a preponderance criteria would invite argument. Jc3s5h (talk) 19:06, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, which is why I hesitated to propose that. Can you think of another way to demonstrate which convention is appropriate to the content? This is the only thing I've been able to come up with so far. The more general claim of scholarly usage in general seemed to me unprovable. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:12, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I understand that the sources have to be cited in the footnotes - and I've also been around Wikipedia long enough to see people replace sources with one that say something similar in order to sway some other aspect of the discussion, which is what I fear would happen here. That would seem more disruptive than the simple discussions of contextual appropriateness you seem to be trying to avoid. I don't see the problem in having a discussion of noting that thus-and-such happened In The Year Of Our Lord 43 may not be factual regarding the Lord and may be particularly inappropriate when discussing folks who have a conflict with that unproven claim. It is, at base, not a question of political correctness but a question of factual correctness. --Nat Gertler (talk) 21:17, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

We have policies against deleting RS. The more RS used, the better, as far as I'm concerned. But I've only participated in era discussions pertaining to Classical Greece & Rome. Could you provide links to some discussions pertaining to era usage with other topics? Maybe then I'd understand the problems better. Cynwolfe (talk)

“a question of factual correctness” – huh, nope. Sometimes phrases have well-established idiomatic meanings which don't coincide with literal meanings (in your own comment you use the phrase political correctness by which I don't think you mean ‘correctness about politics’), and this is the case for Anno Domini as well. (In particular, even people who believe Jesus existed and are OK with calling him Lord often acknowledge he was most likely born around 7 BC.) ― A. di M.​  10:44, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

In articles where the era is mixed, it was convenient to have the "first established" unless later changed by consensus clause that the guideline use to have. In such a case where the era was all over the place, we could look over the Talk for any era consensus discussions, if none were found, then find first-used era in History. This was an easy way to bring conformity to the article. Whenever I made a change like this, my edit summary would contain a change in era, why it conforms to WP:ERA (including ref to WP:ERA) and include date and user/IP of first established era edit from History. If I could not make the edit (because first-established/consensus was for the other era system), I would add a note in the Talk mentioning the lack of conformity, when consensus or era was established, and ask for another editor to make the corrections. This seemed like a legitimate circumstance (one of the very few) where era could be adjusted without first having a discussion about it. Under the new guidelines, this quick correction would not be appropriate.

Sorry to be a late joiner in the discussion, and for rehashing old stuff, but:

Over this very long discussion, occasionally people have mentioned the other system possibly being "offensive" to non-χians. I don't think taking offense is the main issue non-χians. I think the more common issue is the creedal phrasing which declares a certain person as having lordship in relation to the speaker. For religions where words, what you say/write have extreme significance (such as in Judaism and Islam), and where books will be buried and honoured like a deceased person, avoiding phrases and abbreviations (used extensively by Judaism and Islam for religious contexts such as z"l and pbuh) declaring the faith of another religion is a huge deal.

Also mentioned is the common comparison to days of the week. Many do avoid using the western names of the week as well as months, opting instead for numbered days and months (ex: 2nd day of the 3rd week of the seventh month) with a couple exceptions (the month Abib and the day Shabbat). Even still, the comparison doesn't really hold well as Thor's Day does not declare any faith in Thor any more than Tom's Birthday declares any faith in Tom.

Anyway, can we have some loophole around the discuss first when it comes to merely bringing an article into conformity with an already established era? Of course, an edit summary explaining what's going on will be very helpful in preventing a revert in this particular case.

— al-Shimoni (talk) 06:24, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Dates including the day of the week at midnight

Dates at midnight we separate by a slash but what if we want to include the day of the week?

• We could use day of week slash day of week date slash date, for example
  • Wednesday/Thursday 23/24 May 2012
  • Monday/Tuesday 30 April/1 May 2012
  • Saturday/Sunday 31 December 2011/1 January 2012
  • Wednesday/Thursday, May 23/24, 2012
  • Monday/Tuesday 30 April/1 May 2012
  • Saturday/Sunday 31 December 2011/1 January 2012

• We could, on the other hand, use day of week date slash day of week date, for example
  • Wednesday 23/Thursday 24 May 2012 (version 1)
  • Wednesday 23 May/Thursday 24 May 2012 (version 2)
  • Monday 30 April/Tuesday 1 May 2012
  • Saturday 31 December 2011/Sunday 1 January 2012
  • Wednesday, May 23/Thursday, May 24, 2012
  • Monday April 30/Tuesday May 1, 2012
  • Saturday 31 December 2011/Sunday 1 January 2012

"Version 2" seems clearer than "version 1". Note that there is no difference between "versions 1 & 2" unless you use dmy dates & it's the same month.

I think I prefer the second choice because day of week slash day of week date slash date looks like (day of week) slash (day of week date) slash (date) instead of the intended (day of week slash day of week) (date slash date). JIMp _talk·cont 08:14, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

• If forced to choose between the two options, I would go for the former. However, I only ever see such date constructions on MILHIST articles where an action takes place overnight. As war knows no day of the week, I'm not persuaded that there many circumstances, if there are any at all, where the day of the week is significant/notable. So my inclination is to drop mention of it. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 08:35, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, no, the day of the week is usually not necessary but it might sometimes have a place. JIMp _talk·cont 09:46, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The day of the week might be significant in describing a court case about an activity that is legal on some days of the week, but not others, and where the activity occurred near midnight. But this is so rare I don't think the MOS needs to have a rule about it. Jc3s5h (talk) 10:04, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd go with the latter, but if you do, you might want to space the slashes (Wednesday 23 / Thursday 24 May). That at least is in the MOS. — kwami (talk) 05:44, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Fractions

In the section WP:NUMERAL there is a rule that needs clarification: "*Simple fractions are normally spelled out; use the fraction form if they occur in a percentage or with an abbreviated unit (1⁄4 yd or a quarter of a yard, but not a quarter of a yd) or if they are mixed with whole numerals (two-and-a-half yards)." The final example ("use the fraction form ... if they are mixed with whole numerals (two-and-a-half yards).") doesn't make sense. The example shows the fraction spelled out, not the "fraction form", which would be 2 1⁄2 yards.

I would think the correct rule should be: "*Simple fractions are normally spelled out (a quarter of a yard instead of 1⁄4 yard or 0.25 yards; use the fraction form if they occur in a percentage or with an abbreviated unit (1⁄4% or 0.25% and not a quarter %, and 1⁄4 yd or 0.25 yd and not a quarter of a yd). When combined with whole numbers, simple fractions should match the integral part (two-and-a-half yards and 10 1⁄2 yards) and not 10-and-a-half-yards." Coastside (talk) 21:52, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I decided to rewrite the above. Also deleted the guideline "Decimal representations containing a decimal point are not spelled out."with the reasoning that "decimal representations" are by definition "not spelled out". Decimal fractions on the other hand are already covered by the general guidelines for fractions. Coastside (talk) 00:34, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

By definition? The word "point" spells out decimal representations, as in "point 5", "point five" or "three point one". Perhaps some say "dot". --P64 (talk) 15:03, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I hadn't considered someone spelling out "point". Good point(!) Rather than revert the line, let me propose a change to something short and to the, err... point: "Decimal numbers are never spelled out (0.5, not point 5). Thoughts? Coastside (talk) 20:42, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I'm not sure even the mathematicians agree on the terminology, and I'm quite sure the readers of this guideline will have trouble with terminology. For example, "10" is a decimal number (and so is "ten"). In binary it would be "1010₂". Jc3s5h (talk) 21:04, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I certainly agree the style guide for numbers is complex. Examples are helpful. Maybe we should change it to "DecimalnumbersDecimal fractions are never spelled out (0.5, not point 5)." At least that draws attention to the fractional part, which is the point. Coastside (talk) 22:09, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

It should not be helpful to write in terms that are neutral to base ten because the sophisticated reader, comfortable with other bases, who cares to comply with intended style will take "decimal point" in a general way. It means that full stop that delimits the integer part, in any base.

In this sense we take base ten for granted from an earlier point in the article, no later than 3.3 Delimiting: "A full stop (.) should not be used to separate thousands (e.g. 12.200, 255.200) to avoid confusion with the decimal point."

That full stop or dot is the point that should not be spelled out. It shouldn't hurt to continue calling it "full stop (.)". I agree that "point 5" should be sufficient as an example. ...

"Decimal points Full stops (.) are never spelled out (0.5, not point 5)."

--P64 (talk) 15:18, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Percent

I'm not sure that the new percent guideline "Percentages are usually written with figures, e.g., 10 percent" was written with recognition of the existing percent guideline: "Where a whole number in a percentage is spelled out, the percent sign is not used (three percent or 3%, not three %)." If we discourage "three percent" then why do we use it as a good example without comment? And if both guidelines are valid, then shouldn't they be listed together, so we understand the nuance of just how discouraged but not discouraged "three percent" is? Art LaPella (talk) 05:03, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Regarding placement in the page, there are three relevant sections about percentages, each with a different purpose:

• Numbers as figures or words - This section is about when to spell out numbers (e.g., "ten") and when to user figures (e.g., "10")
• Typography - This section is about whether to use the symbol '%' vs. "percent"
• Percentages - This section covers general usage and style questions about percentages

It makes sense to have the rule about using figures for the numbers in percentages (e.g., "10 percent") in the first section, since that is a dedicated section on when to spell out numbers. We shouldn't repeat the rule in the general section on percentages. The same question of redundancy occurs with other topics on numbers, such as fractions, which are treated in multiple sections.

Regarding the new percent guideline, to be clear, it's not new. It was there before, just buried within a confusing line about fractions (see Fractions (above)): "use the fraction form if they occur in a percentage". This was included under a guideline on fractions simply because percentages are by definition fractions. I thought that was confusing, since most people don't think of percentages as fractions, so I made a separate line to state the rule more clearly without reference to fractions.

The recommendation to use figures for the number part of percentages is consistent with other style guides, such as the AP Style Guide which says "Percentages are always expressed as numerals, followed by the word “percent.” Example: The price of gas rose 5 percent." Regarding use of the word "percent" vs. the symbol "%", the AP guideline is more restrictive than the Wikipedia guideline as now written, because Wikipedia only favors the symbol "%" in tables and info boxes (see MOS:NUM#Percentages). Otherwise, Wikipedia doesn't explicitly favor either "percent" or "%". In my personal opinion, I like the AP style, which encourages the word "percent", at least in text (vs. tables), because the symbol "%" seems to jump out of lines of text, but that's just my opinion. As is typical, Wikipedia tends to favor letting the writer decide in cases like this when there is a stylistic choice (with the obvious exception of encouraging consistency within an article). The Chicago Manual of Style is fairly consistent with these Wikipedia gudelines, except it favors "percent" over "%" in text (as opposed to a table, where it is suggests "%" might look better).

Given all that, I think "10 percent" is a good example. It clearly shows the guideline to use figures vs. numbers. It also shows that you should still use figures even if you use "percent" instead of "%". Since Wikipedia doesn't favor one over the other, and there are examples, such as in tables, where "%" will clearly work better, it makes sense to include another example, "10%". I'll make that change for clarity.

In my recent changes, I was trying to clarify guidelines that I thought were poorly written vs. introducing new guidelines. We could introduce a new guideline, however, that encourages using "percent" in text vs. using "%", and I'd certainly be open to discuss that. Coastside (talk) 08:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

“the symbol "%" seems to jump out of lines of text” – maybe you're using some unusual font? In my font, the % symbol has the same height as numerals. Anyway, the symbol appears to be more common than the spelled-out word, at least according to Google Ngram Viewer. (But that counts both prose and tables, and I wouldn't be surprised if a sizeable fraction of all uses of percentages in books were in tables or the like.) ― A. di M.​  10:30, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

By "jump out" I just meant the symbol % visually stands out more than percent in lines of text (as you can see in this line itself). Regardless, none of my changes were meant to modify the guidelines, only clarify them. I was just expressing my opinion (and it seems maybe I shouldn't have done that) that I liked the AP guideline which favored "percent" vs. "%", but I didn't impose that guideline on Wikipedia. Also, I put the other example in, too, so now the examples don't inadvertently favor one style over the other. Coastside (talk) 11:03, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

century

I have been changing code in article text (nothing to do with links) from 1900s to 1900s (decade) and 2000s to 2000s (decade). I base my clarifying edits on Wikipedia:CENTURY. At least one editor objects to this, saying the MOS does not justify my edits and in any case he doesn't like my changes to articles being watched and is going to go to ANI to complain because I don't edit the way being demanded. What is MOS actaully saying here? Hmains (talk) 02:35, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

It's not changing code when you're appending an unnecessary qualifier to the prose of the article such as in this edit. There is nothing listed on this manual of style that says "add '(decade)' to article text". This was never standard practice before. You've just unilaterally decided to make these changes yourself. This would not be an issue if it was a link to the article, but you're putting a raw "(decade)" in the prose of the article so things now read "In the mid-to-late 2000s (decade)..." instead of "In the mid-to-late 2000s...". This page does say to not use ambiguous terms, but it does not say to treat it like a disambiguated article title.—Ryulong (竜龙) 02:41, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:CENTURY does say "Forms such as the 1700s are normally best avoided since it may be unclear whether a 10- or 100-year period is meant (i.e. 1700–1709 or 1700–1799)." But it doesn't specify what to say instead of "1700s" or "2000s". 2000s (decade) only makes sense in a title. It isn't used in prose. "First decade of the 2000s" would be a more obvious choice; see this Google Books ngram. There may be other phrases that could be used, but it shouldn't be just 2000s according to the guideline, and it shouldn't be 2000s (decade) if only because nobody else does it. Art LaPella (talk) 04:32, 14 June 2012 (UTC)