Talk:Pythagoras

Pythagoras father Mnesarchus

Mostly all the ancient historians agree that Pythagoras's father Mnesarchus was originally from Tyre. Aristoxenus in his book the life of the Pythagoras says it, Aristarchus (who was from Samos himself), Theopompus and Neanthes, as well as Clement of Alexandria says it as per this source https://books.google.se/books?id=teoyAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA20&dq=neanthes+of+cyzicus+pythagoras+tyre&pg=PA15&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Hippobotus says the same according to this source https://books.google.se/books?id=teoyAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA20&dq=neanthes+of+cyzicus+pythagoras+tyre&pg=PA15&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Herodotus and Isocrates state also his father was from Tyre as per your previous Note Herodotus, iv. 95, Isocrates, Busiris, 28–29 say he was originally from Tyre. Later writers called him a Tyrrhenian or Phliasian, and gave Marmacus, or Demaratus, as the name of his father: Diogenes Laërtius, viii. 1; Porphyry, Vit. Pyth. 1, 2; Justin, xx. 4; Pausanias, ii. 13.

I could not find the Fergusson source that you posted in digital format but I did find Fergusson's book Pythagoras: His Lives and the Legacy of a Rational Universe in Scribd where in page 29-30 she goes into the discussion of his father's ancestry. In this source the author states that Iamblichus’ research indicated that both parents traced their ancestry to the first colonists on Samos. The problem with Lamblichus's research is that is based on mythology as exposed in Iamblichus' Life of Pythagoras (p.2-3) found here https://books.google.se/books?id=EB5UvHrdMpsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=iamblichus+pythagoras&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwihgaulgNDXAhUIGZoKHcXSDlEQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=iamblichus%20pythagoras&f=false where he says he descends from Anchaeus and Jupiter who was ordered by the oracle to establish a colony named Samos. Then he goes and says that Pythagoras might actually be the son of Apollo according to some Samian poet. Lamblichus even got the name of Pythagoras' father wrong calling him Mnemarchus instead of Mnesarchus according to this source https://books.google.se/books?id=teoyAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA20&dq=neanthes+of+cyzicus+pythagoras+tyre&pg=PA15&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=tyre&f=false.

Lamblichus research making Pytagoras a descenddant of Jupiter or the son of Apollo sounds too much like a fantasy as most mythological genealogies. It does not seem like many or any authors agree with Lamblichus research except perhaps with Hermippus. I say perhaps because as stated by Diogenes Laertius in Chapter 1. PYTHAGORAS (c. 582-500 B.C.)

"Having now completed our account of the philosophy of Ionia starting with Thales, as well as of its chief representatives, let us proceed to examine the philosophy of Italy, which was started by Pythagoras,1 son of the gem-engraver Mnesarchus, and according to Hermippus, a Samian, or, according to Aristoxenus, a Tyrrhenian from one of those islands which the Athenians held after clearing them of their Tyrrhenian inhabitants. Some indeed say that he was descended through Euthyphro, Hippasus and Marmacus from Cleonymus, who was exiled from Phlius, and that, as Marmacus lived in Samos, so Pythagoras was called a Samian. [2]

it could be that Hermippus and Aristoxenus might be talking about Pythagoras himself as a Samian or a Tyrrhenian, not about his father just like in your previous Notes 3 source. Aristoxenus has already stated in his Life of Pythagoras that Mnesarchus was from Tyre as stated in the above source https://books.google.se/books?id=teoyAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA20&dq=neanthes+of+cyzicus+pythagoras+tyre&pg=PA15&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false so I do not know why Fergusson or any of the later authors of Laertius source Aristoxenus might would think he was refering to Mnesarchus

Fegusson also states that Porphyry also says he was from Tyre and that another two of his sources says he was a "Tyrrhenian" and thus he was uncommitted. She then states that Diogenes Laertius, the earliest of the three biographers, pointed out that the ancient historian Aristoxenus of Tarentum – with excellent contacts, such as Dionysius the Younger of Syracuse and Pythagoreans in the fourth century B.C. – also had said Mnesarchus was a Tyrrhenian. But again Laertius statement is not clear as weather he was talking about Pythagoras or his father and repeating again the above Aristoxenus said also Mnesarchus was from Tyre https://books.google.se/books?id=teoyAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA20&dq=neanthes+of+cyzicus+pythagoras+tyre&pg=PA15&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false This accounts then to two sure sources saying Mnsarchus was a "Thyrrhenian" according to Porphyry.

The problem with the term "Thyrrhenian" is that it was used to refer to non-greek groups of people in ancient times to identify not just the Etruscans, non-greeks from Lemnos and sea peoples but also the Phoenicians who settled colonies in the Thyrrhenian Sea "triangle" of Pirgy, and Punicum in the border of Latium, Sicily and Sardinia as stated in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians#Identification_with_the_Phoenicians_from_Tyre long before the other groups.

This leaves Lamblichus and his mythological research pretty lonely regarding the origins of Pythagoras's father with the majority of authors stating that he was from Tyre or linked to the Phoenicians of Tyre through the "Thyrrhenians". CalinicoFire (talk) 22:31, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

It is true that some ancient sources claim that Pythagoras's father was from Tyre, but it is far from the only claimant. The source I was referring to in my edit summary is The Music of Pythagoras (2008) by Kitty Ferguson, which is cited in the bibliography. On pages 11-12, it clearly states:

However, there is no other part of Pythagoras' life story, until the events surrounding his death, about which the discussion among them [the ancient sources] became so animated and contradictory as it did regarding his father Mnesarchus' origins. Iamblichus' research indicated that both parents traced their ancestry to the first colonists on Samos. Porphyry was in possession of a conflicting report from a third century b.c. historian named Neanthes - a stickler for juxtaposing conflicting pieces of information - that Mnesarchus was not Samian by birth. Neanthes had had it from one source that Mnesarchus was born in Tyre (in Syria) and from another that he was an Etruscan (Tyrrhenian) from Lemnos. The similarity of the names 'Tyre' and 'Tyrrhenian' had perhaps caused some confusion. Porphyry referred to an additional source, a book with an enticing title, On the Incredible Things Beyond the Thule, that also mentioned Mnesarchus' Etruscan and Lemnos origins. Diogenes Laertius, the earliest of the three biographers, pointed out that the responsible ancient historian Aristoxenus of Tarentum - with excellent contacts such as Dionysius the Younger and Pythagoreans in the fourth century b.c. - also had said Mnesarchus was a Tyrrhenian. All three biographers agreed that if Mnesarchus was not a Samian by birth, he was naturalized on Samos. Diogenes Laertius also threw in that he had learned from one Hermippus, a native of Samos in the third century b.c., that Mnesarchus was a gem engraver.

Here is the link to the source: [1] (although you can easily find it at the bottom of the article). It comes up on a different page than the one I quoted here, so you will have to scroll quite a bit to find the pages I just quoted from, which are 11-12.

By the way, CalinicoFire, I know that you are the same person as ViamarisBalbi and that Enion Glas is another one of your sockpuppets. You should be aware that sockpuppetry in itself is strictly against Wikipedia policy and that you can be blocked for it with no other offenses. --Katolophyromai (talk) 00:08, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

If you read carefully on the section I have already told you I have review your Fergusson sources in her similar work found here https://books.google.se/books?id=trM7NJz011oC&pg=PT22&dq=pythagoras+tyrrhenian&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjn7ofPg9HXAhWKthoKHRGIBMcQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=pythagoras%20tyrrhenian&f=false

My analysis of all the sources on biographers of Pythagoras tells me that so far that 8 ancient Greek biographers say that Pythagoras father Mnsesarchus was from Tyre. 1 of those 8 biographers, Porphyry, besides saying that one of his sources say he was from Tyre, says that two of Neanthes' sources, without saying who those sources were, say he was "Tyrrhenian", which was a term that was used to design non-greek people including Etruscans, Sea Peoples and Phoenicians from Tyre or Tyrians. Seems like Neanthes ends up settling for Mnesarchus being from Tyre as per Clement of Alexandria in his work found here https://books.google.se/books?id=XWpL1zz5cmoC&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=Hippobotus+pythagoras+tyre&source=bl&ots=J7BKoQ5Kji&sig=U7jF2HkCx0ChxavgnVedco08doE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjEqdL759DXAhVC3KQKHZ25DNYQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=Hippobotus%20pythagoras%20tyre&f=false

Even Fergusson says that the similarity of "Tyrian" and "Tyrrhenian" had perhaps caused the confusion. And then 1 historian, Lamblichus, uses mythological accounts to say Pythagoras descended from Jupiter and was the son of Apollo, which is known to have been pure legend on Roman times.

You cannot therefore state that Pythagoras father ancestry is disputed or unclear as only Lamblichus seems to have come up with mythology and lengendary claims to divert from the what 90% of the Greek biographers and historian have agreed upon and his statement was known as being pure legend in Roman times.

By the way ViamarisBalbi says that he knows that you, Dr. K and Khirurg will keep on harrassing him and disrupting his contributions to wikipedia after his serves his 2nd block, which was done on him thanks to you and your fellow editors friends. When he served his sentence of a week block he came back and found out that you and your fellow friend editors have been Wikihounding him and reverting his sourced contributions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Harassment#Wikihounding him. He has no problem admitting that his edits revolve around things related to Phoenicia and the Phoenicians just like its obvious that you, Dr. K and Khirurg mainly edit on articles related to Greece and clearly seem to antagonize all his edits because his contributions on personalities and theories dont claim Greek ancestry or origins.

He also claims that is not fair that you get to do 100+ edits on a personality like Pythagoras and then one person comes in and makes an edit that does not please you so you revert it. He says it seems like you want a monopoly on the articles you edit and that wikpedia is an open source encyclopedia as long as statements are back with legitimate sources.

He figueres that this Wikihounding/harassment will not stop and that when he tried to defend his previous block he did not get any help from other editors and his case was left in limbo so he might need to resort to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry#Legitimate_uses to avoid further harassment. He will file a complaint and keep looking for assistance from the board if you dont desistCalinicoFire (talk) 02:35, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

First of all, the historian you keep referring to is named Iamblichus, starting with a capital i, not an L. Second of all, he is not the only one who reports other origins for Mnesarchus aside from the Tyrian one, as you would know if you had actually read my quote above in full. Additionally, your accusation that my reversion of your edit was unfair is invalid because you do not have any modern, secondary sources supporting what you are claiming. The only sources you have presented here are: (a) primary sources with no secondary interpretation, such as Clement of Alexandria and Iamblichus, (b) Ferguson 2011, which I quoted from above, is current cited in the article, and says that Mnesarchus's origins are hotly contested, and (c) Afonasin, Dillon, & Finamore 2012, which is an excellent source, but the passages you reference are places where it is simply summarizing the views of Clement of Alexandria and the sources he relies on and do not make any comments regarding the historical authenticity of such statements.

I do not have any problem whatsoever with mentioning in the article that some ancient historians considered Mnesarchus to have come from Tyre. Such a detail is entirely truthful and is worth noting. In fact, the note that I left in the article actually stated this, until you deleted it. I do, however, have a problem with objectively stating in Wikipedia's voice that Mnesarchus was definitively from Tyre because that is not the case. The claims that he was a Tyrrhenian or a native Samian are also noteworthy. Ultimately, though, I must emphasize that we really do not know anything for certain about Mnesarchus except his name and that he might have been a seal engraver. We do not know where he came from or who he really was aside from Pythagoras's father. The words "Tyrrhenian" and "Tyrian" sound similar and, as both you and Ferguson have rightly pointed out, it is easy to see how ancient writers could have gotten them confused, but they do not mean the same thing. Your assertions regarding the supposedly synonymous nature of the two terms could easily qualify as original research, which we are not allowed to include in our articles.

Finally, I would like to ask of you, ViamarisBalbi, how precisely does your usage of three different accounts simultaneously to edit the same articles, sometimes with what I can only describe as a clearly apparent intention to deceive, qualify as one of the ten "Legitimate uses" of an alternative account listed on the WP:SOCK page? It certainly is not security, privacy, clean start, compromised account, or any of the technical reasons since you edited the same articles using different accounts within just a few minutes of each other. It cannot be doppelgänger or humor accounts because you actually performed edits with all three accounts. It cannot be designated roles or educational purposes, since you have no designated roles and you are not a part of the Wikipedia:Education program. It cannot have been a username violation because you operated all three accounts simultaneously and only one of them was blocked, but for non-username-related reasons. I fail to see how you can justify your usage of multiple accounts as anything other than sockpuppetry. --Katolophyromai (talk) 04:08, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

@Katolophyromai: Kat, if I were you, I wouldn't engage with this, or any, sock. Normally, the best policy is to just ignore, until they get blocked, then revert their sock posts. Dr. K. 04:37, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

You say "Second of all, Iamblichus is not the only one who reports other origins for Mnesarchus aside from the Tyrian one, as you would know if you had actually read my quote above in full". Who are the other biographers besides Iamblichus then? Can you mention them?

You say Fergusson says Mnesarchus's origins are hotly contested but she forgot to mention Aristoxenus statement in his book the life of the Pythagoras not the one from Laertius, Neanthes stating he was from Tyre in Clement's work not being ambiguous about two other "Tyrrhenian ancestry" sources, she doesnt mention Aristarchus (who was from Samos himself), Theopompus as well as Clement of Alexandria. If she did I dont think she would have said this was a "hotly contested" debate. Since 90% of the authors say his father was from Tyre.

Still, the original edit said "His father is said to have been a gem-engraver or a wealthy merchant originally from Tyre" not that he was definitivelyfrom Tyre because the majority says it but a tiny few disagree and the one that does use mythological legends which were believed to be so in Roman times.

You said "In fact, the note that I left in the article actually stated this, until you deleted it." So why instead of making it a normal sentence in the article you made it into a note that can be easily missed by readers? Why is it that when a Greek personality is said to have fully Greek origins by biographers of ancient and more modern times there is never "a debate", "ficticious accounts", "dispute", "uncertain origins" or whatever but when an important ancient personality is said to have non-Greek origins like Pythagoras, Thales, Euclid, Zenon there is always a big mystery, a hot debate, that nothing is known for certain, or put into hard to find notes? Is that fair to the Egyptians and the Phoenicians? I dont think it is in my opinion.

ViamrisBalbi says that as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Signs_of_sock_puppetry "Anyone who uses multiple accounts in good faith is not violating any policies, shall face no action, and no attempts shall be made to determine if such accounts are linked" and says that as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry#Legitimate_uses to avoid further harassment and for privacy since he edits articles of controversial nature within and outside of his country of origin and might put family at risk even if other editors might think otherwise as legitimate uses of sock puppetry.

I and ViamarisBalbi have concluded that, due to the previous and current actions and statements, you, Dr. K and Khirurg are trying to game the system as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gaming_the_system especially Dr. K as clearly shown again with his above statement and is quick willigness to report and advocate for blocks without even engaging in the discussions of the talk pages and that you are all doing is a witch hunt as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Witch_hunt and have gotten away with it so far but if you dont desist we will keep taking actions to ensure intervention from the board. CalinicoFire (talk) 07:22, 22 November 2017 (UTC)