User talk:Biz

Request for Help

Hello,

I have observed your contributions to the article "Periodisation of Roman civilisation," which closely aligns with my current project, "The Controversy Surrounding the Term Byzantine Empire." I believe that your expertise could greatly assist in improving my article to meet the necessary standards for acceptance. Additionally, if you require any assistance with your work, I would be more than happy to offer my support. I am particularly passionate about Roman history, especially the later periods.

Thank you for considering my request. I look forward to the possibility of collaborating with you.

Best regards,

Artaxias V Artaxias V (talk) 12:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Artaxias V

Happy to collaborate! I've taken a pause on updating Draft:Periodisation of Roman civilisation because I am now working on a rewrite for the Byzantine Empire. Getting into the detail is helping me better understand the justifications historians use.

For example, recently I uncovered that nomos empsychos is used to distinguish the Dominate and the 'Hellenistic kingship' change that underlies the view the Romans became Byzantine. But my investigation into this has found historians misunderstand the original philosophy (I've since updated lex animata with my findings but that is incomplete) and credible historians recognise this is inappropriate. You should read this book I translated which is well regarded and referenced in existing Wikipedia pages like principate (but clearly no one took the time to read it): User:Biz/Prinzipat_und_Dominat:_Gedanken_zur_Periodisierung_d._rom._Kaiserzeit

My article was sprung up because of my frustration arguing with other Wikipedia editors and a desire to survey the latest scholarship, which in turn is how Wikipedia should be making decisions of appropriate content. I took a broader view as I found the issues systemic and they all relate to each other.

It makes sense to link to your future article and scope down the section I have on this specific topic of Byzantine usage. There is a lot of overlap with our articles so before we collaborate we should decide how these two articles talk to each other or if it makes sense to combine them in some places. Then we can focus on sections. I also invite you to work with me on the Byzantine Empire review as this helps us discover the systemic bias historians have (I'm currently working on Roman and Byzantine law which is a good example of this; clothing is another area I want to look into as the toga is seen as a symbol of Roman times lost in Byzantine times...)

As general feedback to your article, these type of articles need to be razor tight on scholarship. Every sentence should be cited at minimum and we need a diverse group of sources, which is the hard thing to uncover and why its a complex topic. One you hit 500 edits, Wikipedia invites you to their library which gives you access to a lot more scholarship and is needed to work on this topic. Also your article title might be better named something less casual and more professional like "Historiography of the Byzantine term". I also recommend you read Anthony Kaldellis's excellent research on this topic: Kaldellis, Anthony (2022). "From "Empire of the Greeks" to "Byzantium"". In Ransohoff, Jake; Aschenbrenner, Nathanael (eds.). The Invention of Byzantium in Early Modern Europe. Harvard University Press. pp. 366–367. ISBN 978-0-88402-484-2. Biz (talk) 17:35, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Good to hear, and thank you for the suggestions. I have also begun to question our understanding of modern Roman history. The more I explore the topic, the more I realize that a great deal of history has been falsified, both intentionally and unintentionally. For instance, the simplistic portrayal of the year 476 as the definitive end of the Roman Empire, the way cinema simplifies history, and the romanticization of history to fit certain narratives. This was especially prevalent during the Renaissance, well after the fall of the Roman Empire, when many Western scholars, driven by political biases and dissatisfaction with the Romans due to the schism, distorted history to support their narratives.

There is a significant amount of ignorance about what happened to the Romans after the fall of their empire, as they continued to exist well beyond the 15th century. This prompts discussions about Roman identity and what truly defines a Roman. I have written an entire article on this issue. As an Armenian living in Istanbul, formerly Constantinople, my grandparents would share their experiences and stories about the local Roman community in Istanbul before they were expelled in 1955 by the Turks. I theorize that some people do not want the Roman Empire to be perceived as close to the modern age or for the Romans to be historically near them. Hence, they ignore these obvious facts.

When you examine historical sources such as the national census of the Ottoman Empire or Janissary recruitment records, you find a group referred to as Romans. This group did not appear randomly; they are the same Romans from the former empire. The issue becomes more complex with the Greek War of Independence. After its success, the medieval Roman identity became part of the new modern Greek identity. Even in Greece, there were communities referring to themselves as Romans, and certain western regions of Turkey had communities that were called Romans. However, in the last two centuries, nationalist narratives have distorted our understanding of history, such as the Italians claiming to be descendants of the Romans or the Greeks promoting their national ideals. I could continue discussing these issues endlessly, as there are numerous topics to address.

I appreciate the opportunity to discuss them and look forward to further conversation and exploration of this topic. Artaxias V (talk) 18:39, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it's a big topic! My grandfather was kicked out of Turkey from the population exchange 100 years ago and it's what got me editing Wikipedia as I wanted to understand this better. Learning about the pogroms in Turkey after had me feel the pain and I imagine your family was impacted.

I'm now preparing to be able to have good explanations for my own children about our history. There's a lot to uncover -- I suggest we start one topic and one article at a time. I look forward to our collaboration. Biz (talk) 18:52, 14 August 2024 (UTC)