Talk:List of genocides

Before writing a comment please read the comments below, and add yours in the most relevant section, or add a new section if nothing similar exists.

Comparison between some lists on wikipedia

I was curious, so I threw together this little comparison chart of what genocides are included in a few lists we have on wikipedia:

List of genocides	Genocides in history Prior to WW1, WW1–WW2, 1946–1999, 2000–	Genocide navbox
	Neanderthal genocide
	Chiefdom genocides
	Destruction of Carthage
	Asiatic Vespers
	Julius Caesar's campaigns (Gauls (Eburones))
	Bar Kokhba revolt
	Jie and Wu Hu
	Zandaqa
	Ancestral Puebloans
	Harrying of the North
	Mongol Empire/Mongol conquests
Albigensian Crusade (Cathars)
	Tamerlane
	Guanches
	Mongols in the Delhi Sultanate
Taíno genocide
	Genocide of indigenous peoples in Brazil
	Kashmiri Shias
	Atlantic Slave Trade
	Genocide of the Huron
	Kalinago
	Pequots
	Great Gypsy Round-up
	Persecution of Huguenots
	Vendee
	War of the Three Kingdoms
	Khmelnytsky uprising
Dzungar genocide
		Chechens
1804 Haiti massacre
		Al-Jawazi massacre
		Siege of Tripolitsa
	Caste War of Yucatán
	Apaches
	Yaquis
	Indigenous Australian
Black War
Trail of Tears
Massacre of Salsipuedes (Charrúa)
	Zulu Kingdom under Shaka Zulu
	Beothuk
Moriori genocide
Queensland Aboriginal genocide
	Native American
	Native American genocide in the United States
	Indian removal
California genocide
	Sand Creek massacre
	1740 Batavia massacre
Circassian genocide
	Conquest of the Desert
	Taiping Rebellion
	Japanese colonization of Hokkaido
	Anti-Romani sentiment (Attempted extirpations of Romani/Gypsies)
Putumayo genocide
	Great Famine (Ireland)
	January Uprising § The decades of reprisals
	Genocide of indigenous peoples § Tsardom of Russia's conquest of Siberia
	British Raj
	Persecution of Yazidis
	Hazaras
	Massacres of Badr Khan
	Congo Free State
	Ethiopia under Menelik II
	French conquest of Algeria
	Colonial Philippines
Selk'nam genocide
Armenian massacres of 1894–1896
Herero and Nama genocide
	Maji Maji Rebellion Ukame
	Balkan Wars
	Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction
Massacres of Albanians in the Balkan Wars
Greek genocide
Pontic genocide		Pontic Greeks
Armenian genocide
	Diyarbekir
Sayfo
	Destruction of the Thracian Bulgarians in 1913
	Deportations of Kurds (1916–1934)
		Ingrian Finns
	Simele massacre
	Urkun
	Pogroms against Jews
	Decossackization
	Kantō Massacre
		Napalpí massacre
	Japanese colonial empire/ Japanese war crimes
	Musha Incident
Osage Indian murders
Libyan genocide
	Second Italo-Ethiopian War
	Kazakhstan
		La Matanza
Holodomor
	Ma Bufang against the Tibetans
Polish Operation of the NKVD
Parsley massacre
	Nanjing Massacre
Nazi crimes against the Polish nation
Romani Holocaust
		Three Alls policy
The Holocaust
German atrocities committed against Soviet prisoners of war
The Holocaust in Croatia
Genocide of Serbs
Genocide against Bosniaks and Croats by the Chetniks
		Sook Ching
		Nanshitou Massacre
	Volhynia
	Aktion T4
Deportation of the Chechens and Ingush
Deportation of the Crimean Tatars
	Deportations of Estonians, Latvians, and Lithuanians
	Massacres of Albanians in Yugoslavia
	Ethnic cleansing of Germans
	Partition of India
	Hyderabadi Muslims
	Sinicization of Tibet
	Stolen Generation
	Indigenous peoples in Paraguay
Guatemalan genocide
Zanzibar genocide
		1966 anti-Igbo pogrom
	Biafra (1966–1970)
	Genocide of Feyli Kurds
	Equatorial Guinea
	Indonesian mass killings of 1965–66
	West New Guinea/West Papua
Bangladesh genocide
	Persecution of Biharis in Bangladesh
Genocide of Acholi and Lango people under Idi Amin	Idi Amin's regime
Ikiza (Burundi 1972)
	Hmong Genocide
East Timor genocide
	Derg
Cambodian genocide
	Chittagong Hill Tracts (Indigenous Chakmas)
Sabra and Shatila massacre
	Genocide of Afghans by Soviet Armed Forces and proxies
Gukurahundi
	Bush War (1981–1985)
Anfal genocide
Isaaq genocide
	Amhara genocide
Bosnian genocide
	Burundi 1993
Rwandan genocide
	Massacres of Hazaras and other groups by the Taliban
	Forced sterilization in Peru
Massacres of Hutus during the First Congo War
	Tamil genocide
	Chechnya
	Boko Haram and Fulani herdsman
Effacer le tableau
Darfur genocide
		Southern Kaduna
	Allegations of genocide against Uyghurs
Iraqi Turkmen genocide
Genocide of Yazidis by the Islamic State
	Shias under ISIS
	Christians under ISIS
Rohingya genocide
	South Sudan
	Yemen
	Ethiopia
	Accusations of genocide in Donbas
	Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russian invasion of Ukraine
	Nagorno-Karabakh
	Israel/Palestine

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, that is very telling! Bondegezou (talk) 12:57, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. My feeling, especially after the change by @Cdjp1 to the definition of "genocide" used in this article, is that this list should be changed to a table with 1-line summaries of the genocides in the Genocides in history articles, so that the list can easily be sorted and searched. When there is an unsettled accusation of genocide (as there is for some ongoing or recent events) or a dispute in scholarship, or if some common definitions of genocide are met but not others, we can add a column or two to indicate that status. AndyBloch (talk) 21:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Long term, I hope to be able to unify the List of genocides, Genocides in history, and Genocide navbox, but this is a large undertaking, and as I have mentioned previously on this page, I do have a lot of IRL priorities so the unification effort is low on my to do list.

As a rough guide to steps, as I would follow,:

1. Any of the genocides listed in List of genocides should be added to Genocides in history
2. any citations for items in List of genocides should be added to the their relevant items in Genocides in history
3. items in Genocides in history should be checked over for any instances of citation needed and corrected (checking ideally through the journals Journal of Genocide Research, Genocide Studies and Prevention, Holocaust and Genocide Studies, and Genocide Studies International)
4. Once these have been completed I would move to adding entries into List of genocides for any items present in Genocides in history that are not already present in List of genocides.

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:45, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Should the Dungan Revolt 1862-1877 be added?

the war saw a decline of an ethnic group in China. The population declined by 21 million from war related deaths and famine and displacement. TaipingRebellion1850 (talk) 17:50, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

It can be added if there is good scholarship calling it a genocide. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 May 2024

Hello! I would appreciate it if someone would comment out (place <!-- preceding and --> following) the list references (references within named <ref> tags listed in the {{reflist}} template) named "Milton1992", "USHMM2", and "AxisYugo" to fix unused list-defined reference errors. Thank you! – Daℤyzzos (✉️ • 📤) 21:55, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done: I couldn't find the 'USHMM2' ref. Commented out the other 2. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 03:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! The USHMM2 ref is missing because it was removed between me posting the edit request and you acting on said edit request. Also within that time period, the two references you commented out had their use re added, so those refs should actually no longer be commented out. Sorry for the time waste... – Daℤyzzos (✉️ • 📤) 12:54, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 June 2024

Hello! Could someone please make these edits to fix two cite errors? (This is a reversal of my previous edit request because changes were made to the page between the request and its execution that made it unnecessary.)
In § References:
Line 617:

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<ref name="Milton1992">{{cite journal |last=Milton |first=Sybil |date=February 1992 |title=Nazi Policies towards Roma and Sinti 1933–1945 |journal=Journal of Gypsy Lore Society |volume=2 |issue=1 |pages=1–18 |url=https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015077550120;view=1up;seq=3 |access-date=12 August 2016}}</ref>

+

<!-- ref not used <ref name="Milton1992">{{cite journal |last=Milton |first=Sybil |date=February 1992 |title=Nazi Policies towards Roma and Sinti 1933–1945 |journal=Journal of Gypsy Lore Society |volume=2 |issue=1 |pages=1–18 |url=https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015077550120;view=1up;seq=3 |access-date=12 August 2016}}</ref> -->

Line 625:

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<ref name="AxisYugo">{{cite encyclopedia |url=https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005456 |title=Axis Invasion of Yugoslavia{{Snd}} Croatia |encyclopedia=Holocaust Encyclopedia |publisher=[[United States Holocaust Memorial Museum]] |date=2010 |access-date=12 August 2016 |archive-url= |archive-date=}}</ref>

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<!-- <ref name="AxisYugo">{{cite encyclopedia |url=https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005456 |title=Axis Invasion of Yugoslavia{{Snd}} Croatia |encyclopedia=Holocaust Encyclopedia |publisher=[[United States Holocaust Memorial Museum]] |date=2010 |access-date=12 August 2016 |archive-url= |archive-date=}}</ref> -->

Or revert this edit. Thank you!
— Daℤyzzos (✉️ • 📤) 14:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 01:09, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 June 2024

I request that all the South American Native tribes of South America and the Tribes of that came from Africa be included into the list of genocides. Everyone knows that the South American Native Tribes were wiped out by the Spaniards when Christopher Columbus came to occupy the land and kill the adults and Enslave the adolescents and children. We all know that when they ran out of Southern Native American people, they started aiming for the Africans, wiping out whole villages and tribes of people we will never hear about again. Killing them to grab their children, exposing them to disease or a voyage that they would never make to the new world with the conditions they had to endure. To say that the holocaust was the worst genocide in the world is to spread lies, when the genocide that happened during the slave trade to those who were enslaved in order to build North America and South America happened on a much larger scale than the holocaust. We are talking about billions of people who died and their deaths are being ignored and washed over just because their culture is darker skinned. The shame!! 2600:100A:A111:4C51:CDBC:D96:8247:F056 (talk) 15:57, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 01:36, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 June 2024

Change the "Proportion of group killed" part of the table to "Other victimization statistics" in order to encompass other type of genocide victimization in these events like displacement, rape, torture, injury, etcetera since it seems some of the boxes in that section seem to be doing that already despite the current name and could add other valuable information to the article. Vanisherman (talk) 18:42, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Add high end deaths for Gaza genocide from New survey

New survey gives a higher death toll for Gaza deaths https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext Vanisherman (talk) 03:28, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Inclusion of Gaza genocide

In the interest of avoiding further edit warring, I'm starting a section to discuss the Gaza genocide inclusion and the list inclusion criteria more generally.

I don't think we can verify many of the list entries as being the majority view in relevant scholarship. Usually we cite a couple sources that call the event a genocide. So, I support inclusion of any genocide described as such in a significant body of scholarship, with a disclaimer at the top of the list indicating that this list doesn't represent Wikipedia's viewpoint and a note of relevant disagreement with every disputed entry. (t · c) buidhe 19:06, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

In this case we should change the article name to present this change in criteria. Vegan416 (talk) 20:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

buidhe's suggestion is no different from the criteria that is currently detailed in the article lede, so a change of name is not necessary. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:45, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

we did that a few months ago—blindlynx 22:27, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

As per the discussion in April, it was agreed to change the criteria from the previous criteria where it was scholarship + "in line with the UN convention", to "significant scholarship" (this can be by prominence or by multitude), as most Genocide Scholars and related specialists use frameworks different to the UN convention. So in trying to apply the previous standard editors would have to make that determination which it was thought bordered to close to OR. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:43, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Buidhe's suggestion seems very reasonable to me: articles like this one should reflect significant body of scholarship. Of course we shouldn't require unanimity – there will always be sources close to or sympathethic to the perpetrators, while decisions by international tribunals unfortunately have also a political dimension and may or may not reflect the facts on the ground. Impartial scholarship appears the best way to go here. No disclaimer is necessary – there's no "Wikipedia point of view", and anyway every Wikipedia page already contains a link to Wikipedia:General disclaimer. — kashmīrī ^TALK 02:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, keep it on here that is the way the consensus is going now, and you can see plenty of other massacres and events that are only considered as such by a few sourcesa as you say there. Ecpiandy (talk) 21:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

By including it, we're saying that it is a genocide. This is going beyond what we can reasonably do based on the current sourcing. For example, we exclude the Ukraine genocide. We need to wait until the ICJ ruling for both of these. BilledMammal (talk) 00:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that's what we're saying necessarily. The standard I think, which is what it is written at the top of the list, is acceptance in some "significant scholarship". See for example the Holodomor: the majority scholarly position is probably that it is not a genocide, but we include it because there is legitimate scholarly debate. I think if we include the Holodomor we should include the Gaza genocide. Though there is also a reasonable argument to include neither. Endwise (talk) 01:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

There are several items on the list that probably don't belong here, but given these events are happening now it's more important that we get this one right. BilledMammal (talk) 01:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

The idea that including the Gaza Genocide means Wikipedia is saying it is a genocide is complete nonsense. Wikipedia does not make determinations of fact. It merely reports what authoritative sources say, and there are many authoritative sources saying what's happening in Gaza is a genocide. Ianbrettcooper (talk) 11:12, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Inclusion of "Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contradiction"

This topic is also regarded as genocide and ethnic cleansing. Should be included in this list too. Crxyzen (talk) 00:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done Please provide reliable sources that support inclusion—blindlynx 13:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@Blindlynx Reliable sources are the page itself Crxyzen (talk) 00:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The article doesn't offer evidence that the events are commonly classified as genocide. — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not seeing these citations, please list them here—blindlynx 15:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 July 2024

The Gaza genocide is false as it does not follow the 10 stages of genocide. 1. Classification 2.Symbolization 3.Dehumanization 4.Organization 5.Polarization 6.Preparation 7.Extermination 8.Denial 9.Cover up The Gaza strip is a current warzone and using the logic being used to say Israel is on a genocide would mean that America during world war 2 geocide the Japanese and the Germans along with other countrys. Sirfartface (talk) 02:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:20, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Chinese genocide

The Japanese crimes in China during the second sino Japanese wars are considered genocide no? It definitely should be included The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 04:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

We'd need good sources. They were civilian massacres, war crimes for sure, but has there been a genocidal intent? — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:21, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I hope this source is good enough

some sources have called it a genocide, with focus on the nanking massacre and soon ching

https://scholarsbank.uoregon.edu/xmlui/handle/1794/25558https://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/nanking.htm

The “three Alls” policy could also be used to argue that there was an established intent, especially with what happened on the ground The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 04:59, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@The Great Mule of Eupatoria:, I'm working to unify the lists as per "Comparison between some lists on wikipedia". For actions in Japanese invasion of China, there are multiple specific aspects/instances which have scholarship describing them as genocide/genocidal, besides the Three Alls policy you identified, there is also the Nanjing Massacre.

From the relevant articles potential sources are:

• Three Alls
  • Felton, Mark (2015). "The Perfect Storm: Japanese military brutality during World War Two". The Routledge History of Genocide. Routledge. doi:10.4324/9781315719054-10/perfect-storm-mark-felton (inactive 31 January 2024). ISBN 9781315719054. Retrieved 24 July 2022.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: DOI inactive as of January 2024 (link) (Though I'm not to happy having a Felton source, I'll dig to see if I can find more to add to the main article)
• Nanjing
  • Campbell, Bradley (June 2009). "Genocide as social control". Sociological Theory. 27 (2): 154. doi:10.1111/j.1467-9558.2009.01341.x. JSTOR 40376129. S2CID 143902886. Also, genocide may occur in the aftermath of warfare when mass killings continue after the outcome of a battle or a war has been decided. For instance, after the Chinese city of Nanking was occupied by the Japanese in December 1937, Japanese soldiers massacred over 250,000 residents of the city.

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 16:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

In this case it definitely should be included, the sources are good enough The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 17:01, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 July 2024

Please make the following change to the article:

−

* More than 10,000 estimated under rubble * At least 87,700 injuries * Damaging or destruction of approximately 80% of homes and 50% of buildings in Gaza * 20% of population facing "catastrophic levels of acute food insecurity" involving "an extreme lack of food, starvation, and exhaustion" * 1,900,000+ internally displaced persons

+

As of July 10, 2024, 1.7% of the residents of the Gaza strip (38,295 out of 2.23 million) have been killed in the conflict, according to the Gaza Ministry of Health.

AndyBloch (talk) 13:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

• I disagree with this edit. It's not correct that genocide is just killing large numbers of people. (t · c) buidhe 03:46, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

  It's not a question of what is a correct definition of genocide. These columns in the table are titled Estimated killings and Proportion of group killed, and the information in those columns should only include that information. The Yazidi Genocide Proportion of group killed cell should be changed too. AndyBloch (talk) 09:44, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Left guide (talk) 05:26, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I am going to change answered= back to no, because (1) you are asking me to do something that is impossible for me to do under the rules adopted last year for ECP pages, and (2) this seems to me to be a simple change that is primarily removing content that does not belong in the the column. If I'm wrong, then EC editors should start a discussion. AndyBloch (talk) 00:55, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[subscribe] AndyBloch (talk) 00:57, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 July 2024

Please make the following change to the article:

−

Before the 2015 refugee crisis, the Rohingya population in Myanmar was around 1.0 to 1.3 million. Since 2015, over 900,000 Rohingya refugees have fled to southeastern Bangladesh alone, and more to other surrounding countries. More than 100,000 Rohingyas in Myanmar are confined in camps for internally displaced persons.

+

2% or more of the Rohingya population in Myanmar were killed. (Over 25,000 killed out of a population between 1.0 and 1.3 million.)

AndyBloch (talk) 13:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

• I disagree with this edit. It's not correct that genocide is just killing large numbers of people. (t · c) buidhe 03:46, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

  It's not a question of what is the correct definition of genocide. These columns in the table are titled Estimated killings and Proportion of group killed, and those columns should only include that information. The Yazidi Genocide Proportion of group killed cell should be changed too. AndyBloch (talk) 09:45, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Left guide (talk) 05:27, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I am going to change answered back to no, because (1) you are asking me to do something that is impossible for me to do under the rules adopted last year for ECP pages, and (2) this seems to me to be a simple change that is primarily removing content that does not belong in the the column. If I'm wrong, then EC editors should start a discussion. AndyBloch (talk) 00:55, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Source reliability

I've opened a discussion at RSN on the reliability of the source "Counting the dead in Gaza: difficult but essential", which cited in this article: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Counting the dead in Gaza: difficult but essential. Elli (talk | contribs) 02:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

RFC - Inclusion of Gaza genocide

Should Gaza genocide be included in this list? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:46, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• Don't include unless the title is changed to "alleged genocides" or similar. In my view, inclusion under the current title amounts to a statement in wikivoice that a genocide is occurring. Regardless of what the majority view is, we should avoid such statements in cases where there's significant (non-fringe) controversy. I know there have been attempts to qualify such implied statements with prose like "recognized in significant scholarship", but that doesn't fully address the issue, just as false advertising can't be remedied by adding fine print. The non-neutral (implied) statement is still there. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 22:44, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

  Many (most?) entries in the list have been controversial, see Genocide recognition politics. The United States[1] (and others[2]) deny Rohingya genocide. The United Nations[3] (and others[4]) deny Darfur genocide. Most of those who are denying Gaza genocide would also dispute the longstanding Sabra and Shatila massacre entry in this list.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 00:00, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

• Include there are a lot of reliable sources calling it genocide or saying in so many words that Israel is engaging in genocidal actions. Most of the sources that disagree with that label are either simply unreliable or directly tied to Israel and its backers. If this situation was applied to an enemy of the US, like China or Russia, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Dronebogus (talk) 02:38, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

  If this situation was applied to an enemy of the US, like China or Russia, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

  That's not true. For example, Persecution of Uyghurs in China and Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russo-Ukrainian War are not included in the list. BilledMammal (talk) 04:33, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

  I think there is sufficient sourcing to call China’s actions against the Uyghurs genocide of some description, at least. Dronebogus (talk) 04:31, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

  You may think, but editors' consensus was different.[5] — kashmīrī ^TALK 22:18, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

  I see a lot of reasonable votes supporting the genocide label. There was zero consensus; the change was basically by admin fiat, implemented to sidestep the issue in a reasonable and policy-based way. “Genocide” will always be a controversial label, especially when it’s in a country that is heavily involved in international geopolitics Dronebogus (talk) 11:55, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

• Don't include, per xDanielx. Sourcing is not sufficient yet to put it in Wikivoice per the recent RM - and generally, we should wait to do so until after the ICJ has ruled, at which point we can either make it clear that the allegations were true or that they were false. BilledMammal (talk) 04:32, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

  Wiki policy depends on RS, not ICJ. And most entries in this list don't have an ICJ ruling.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 00:01, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

• Don't include per XDanielx. Right now the status of a genocide is disputed, and really entries to this article should only be made when it's clearer. — Czello ^(music) 09:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
• Don't include. This article "only considers acts which are recognised in significant scholarship as genocides", and this case is obviously an extremely controversial topic right now, the allegations could be false as well. We should wait and see how things develop. HaOfa (talk) 15:33, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

  Based on that criteria, then Gaza should be included, as in the currently published scholarship, it is overwhelmingly described as a genocide. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:43, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

  No, it's not. For example, the Economist: "Charging Israel with genocide makes a mockery of the ICJ... it diverts attention from the real humanitarian crisis in Gaza". https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/01/18/charging-israel-with-genocide-makes-a-mockery-of-the-icj HaOfa (talk) 11:16, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not sure I follow, this isn't a scholarly article—blindlynx 11:34, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

  @האופה the Economist is not a scholarly publication, try again. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 14:23, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

  Serious publications and scholars need time to analyze the evidence and provide their verdicts. Those who have already drawn conclusions while the war is still ongoing, despite many leading outlets and world leaders directly stating this is a fabrication, should be questioned. Claims of genocide have often been made during Israeli operations in Gaza all over the past decade by activists, so there are lots of good reason to doubt their credibility. HaOfa (talk) 17:12, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

  So your answer is to call for us to use the opinions of non-experts over experts in the field, including multiple pre-eminent experts? You really are an ideologically-blinkered editor in these matters. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:44, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• Include. Historical events are always subject to debate, and violent events are routinely challenged and contested, especially by the minoroty aligned with or sympathetic to the presumed perpetrator(s). However, this page is not titled List of unchallenged genocides (it would probably be blank in such an instance). Where the majority of reliable sources agree, or where there's evidence of a very high quality (e.g., the UN or multiple subject experts), then it would be a violation of NPOV to let minority opinions dictate Wikipedia content. This is precisely the situation with Gaza genocide. — kashmīrī ^TALK 22:54, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
• Include: this is not a list of officially UN-recognised genocides or anything according to that metric, henceforth the inclusion of so many events in the article including Yazidi, Osage Indian murders, Rohingya, Genocide of Acholi and Lango people, Guatemala etc I could go on. The article is literally called Gaza genocide too. It is a list of genocide or genocidal-like massacres that are recognised as such by vast sways of scholars and non-governmental organisations etc. - the only reason for not including it is due to personal bias or else we need to have a discussion about the entire page. Additionally as per Kashmiri. Ecpiandy (talk) 00:04, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
• Don't include, per xDanielx. The allegations of genocide in Gaza are obviously contested (according to many they are totally made up), and lack consensus. Adding such a controversial claim would violate our neutrality guidelines. O.maximov (talk) 11:48, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

  according to many they are totally made up Just who is this mysterious "many"? Selfstudier (talk) 13:47, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

• Include: per above. Even Al Jazeera, which is declared generally reliable on WP:RSPS, covers the coverage of the subject. Sufficient evidence of genocide will be essential in history. Ahri Boy (talk) 10:52, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Read the first line of the article "This list of genocides includes estimates of all deaths which were directly or indirectly caused by genocides that are recognised in significant scholarship as genocides; overwhelming scholarship recognises this as genocide. We articulated this point well when discussing the ultimately successful name change to Gaza genocide. Ecpiandy (talk) 00:08, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment — Could anyone claiming that significant scholarship consistently endorses the view that a genocide is occuring in Gaza provide examples of such scholarship? DecafPotato (talk) 16:52, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

  {{Expert opinions in the Gaza genocide debate}} was created for this purpose. Here it is:

Scholarly and expert opinions

Sources Name Month Profession Source (English or autotranslated and verified) example statement Notes Segal October 2023 Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies Jewish Currents "A Textbook Case of Genocide" Already in article Genocide Watch October 2023 Antigenocide NGO Genocide Watch "This settler ideology is supported by Likud, the party of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who is committed to further settlement expansion. Like the American ideology of "manifest destiny," this settler ideology is used to justify forced displacement of Palestinians who have lived in the occupied territories for thousands of years.", "Dehumanization of the enemy is common in wars and genocides. It is already evident in this war, with Hamas militants spitting on and mutilating bodies of their victims and the Israeli Defence Minister calling Hamas "human animals." Dehumanization is a stage of genocide.", "Genocide Watch considers the war in Israel and Gaza to be at Stage 3: Discrimination, Stage 4: Dehumanization, Stage 5: Organization, Stage 6: Polarization, Stage 8: Persecution, and Stage 9: Extermination." Already in article Fassin October 2023 Anthropologist and sociologist Le Monde "La directrice exécutive de Jewish Voice for Peace a lancé un vibrant « plaidoyer juif », appelant à « se dresser contre l'acte de génocide d'Israël ». Couper l'eau, l'électricité et le gaz, interrompre l'approvisionnement en nourriture et envoyer des missiles sur les marchés où les habitants tentent de se ravitailler, bombarder des ambulances et des hôpitaux déjà privés de tout ce qui leur permet de fonctionner, tuer des médecins et leur famille : la conjonction du siège total, des frappes aériennes et bientôt des troupes au sol condamne à mort un très grand nombre de civils – par les armes, la faim et la soif, le défaut de soins aux malades et aux blessés." [The executive director of Jewish Voice for Peace has issued a vibrant "Jewish plea," calling for "standing up against Israel's act of genocide." Cutting off water, electricity and gas, interrupting food supplies and sending missiles into markets where residents are trying to get supplies, bombing ambulances and hospitals already deprived of everything that allows them to function, killing doctors and their families: the combination of total siege, airstrikes and soon ground troops is condemning a very large number of civilians to death – by weapons, hunger and thirst, and the failure to care for the sick and wounded.], "Du premier génocide du XXe siècle, celui des Herero, en 1904, mené par l'armée allemande en Afrique australe, qui, selon les estimations, a provoqué 100 000 morts de déshydratation et de dénutrition, au génocide des juifs d'Europe et à celui des Tutsi, la non-reconnaissance de la qualité d'êtres humains à ceux qu'on veut éliminer et leur assimilation à des animaux a été le prélude aux pires violences." [From the first genocide of the 20th century, that of the Herero in 1904, carried out by the German army in southern Africa, which, according to estimates, caused 100,000 deaths from dehydration and malnutrition, to the genocide of the Jews of Europe and that of the Tutsi, the non-recognition of the quality of human beings of those who are to be eliminated and their assimilation to animals has been the prelude to the worst violence.] Illouz October 2023 Professor of sociology Le Monde "military response … against an enemy which has violated borders and international law, … is not genocide" Already in article Kittel October 2023 History Professor Berliner Zeitung No, Israel's military response is not genocide – regardless of whether one uses narrower or broader definitions of the term. 800 scholars October 2023 Various scholars, most of whom in relevant fields. TWAILR journal website "we are compelled to sound the alarm about the possibility of the crime of genocide being perpetrated by Israeli forces against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.", "Language used by Israeli political and military figures appears to reproduce rhetoric and tropes associated with genocide and incitement to genocide.", "Evidence of incitement to genocide has also been present in Israeli public discourse." Already in article Center for Constitutional Rights October 2023 legal advocacy organization The Intercept "Katherine Gallagher, senior attorney with CCR and a legal representative for victims in the pending ICC investigation in Palestine, told The Intercept. "U.S. officials can be held responsible for their failure to prevent Israel's unfolding genocide, as well as for their complicity, by encouraging it and materially supporting it."" Already in article; There is then also the CCR's full 44-page briefing declaring it genocide and naming the US as a complicit party (not in article). UN Special Rapporteurs October 2023 Special Rapporteur on the human rights to safe drinking water and sanitation, Special Rapporteur on Violence against women and girls, Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory, Special Rapporteur on the human rights of internally displaced persons, Special Rapporteur on the right to food, Special Rapporteur on the right of everyone to the enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health, Special Rapporteur on the right to adequate housing, Special Rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance OHCHR ""We are sounding the alarm: There is an ongoing campaign by Israel resulting in crimes against humanity in Gaza. Considering statements made by Israeli political leaders and their allies, accompanied by military action in Gaza and escalation of arrests and killing in the West Bank, there is also a risk of genocide against the Palestinian People," the experts said." Mokhiber October 2023 Specialist in international human rights law, policy, and methodology The New Republic "A director of the United Nations High Commissioner of Human Rights has resigned, issuing a lengthy letter condemning the organization, the U.S., and Western media companies for their positions on the war between Israel and Hamas, which he described as a "text-book case of genocide."", ""Once again, we are seeing a genocide unfolding before our eyes, and the Organization that we serve appears powerless to stop it," wrote Craig Mokhiber, the group's New York office director, who had worked with the U.N. for more than three decades."" 100 civil rights organisations and 6 scholars October 2023 Scholars: Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies, Historian, specialising in Jewish History, Anatomical Pathology Technologist (part of Forensic Team at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia), Professor of Human Rights and Environmental Justice, Historian and Sociologist, Anthropologist specialising in Human Rights and Genocide Al Mezan Center for Human Rights "clear intent to commit war crimes, crimes against humanity and incitement to commit genocide, using dehumanizing language to describe Palestinians." Dana October 2023 Professor of Conflict and Humanitarian Studies The New Arab "As the Israeli genocide in Gaza unfolds and global public awareness is becoming increasingly acute, it is becoming clearer that the myths surrounding the colonial conflict in Palestine serve not as guides to understanding, but as barriers. These myths, perpetuated by pro-Israel propagandists, Western powers, and Arab regimes have had dire consequences – ones measured in lost lives, crushed hopes, and a perpetually destabilised region." Berenbaum & Zavadivker November 2023 Historians and Holocaust scholars: 1; 2 Jerusalem Post "Israel has no greater ambition than to coexist with the Palestinians as peaceful neighbors; [The genocide claims] "threaten future attempts to identify, prevent, and prosecute that crime. It is equally damaging to the legitimacy of Holocaust and Genocide Studies as a field when such false claims are presented in the guise of scholarly expertise."" Fassin November 2023 Anthropologist and sociologist AOC "Didier Fassin joue un rôle de lanceur d’alerte lorsqu'il écrit le 1er novembre 2023 : « Alors que la plupart des gouvernements occidentaux continuent de dire "le droit d'Israël à se défendre" sans y mettre de réserves autres que rhétoriques et sans même imaginer un droit semblable pour les Palestiniens, il y a en effet une responsabilité historique à prévenir ce qui pourrait devenir le premier génocide du XXIe siècle. »" [Didier Fassin plays the role of whistleblower when he writes on November 1, 2023: "While most Western governments continue to say "Israel's right to defend itself" without any reservations other than rhetorical ones and without even imagining a similar right for the Palestinians, there is indeed a historical responsibility to prevent what could become the first genocide of the 21st century."] Jürgen Habermas, Klaus Günther, Rainer Forst & Nicole Deitelhoff November 2023 Philosopher and Social Theorist; Professor of Law; Philosopher; Political Scientist Site of "Normative Orders" Research Center at Goethe University Frankfurt "The Hamas massacre with the declared intention of eliminating Jewish life in general has prompted Israel to strike back. How this retaliation, which is justified in principle, is carried out is the subject of controversial debate; principles of proportionality, the prevention of civilian casualties and the waging of a war with the prospect of future peace must be the guiding principles. Despite all the concern for the fate of the Palestinian population, however, the standards of judgement slip completely when genocidal intentions are attributed to Israel's actions." Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor November 2023 Human rights NGO Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor "Euro-Med Monitor renewed its calls on all countries across the world to take decisive action to end the Israeli genocide against the people of the Gaza Strip, citing their legal obligations to stop this horrifying crime against humanity." Adel & Gallagher November 2023 International lawyer and PhD researcher; Staff attorney at the CCR Al Jazeera "What is happening in Gaza fits the definition of genocide.", "To understand what is transpiring in Gaza, we must turn to the key legal frameworks that define genocide: Article 6 of the Rome Statute for the International Criminal Court and Article 2 of the Genocide Convention. […] Gaza's devastating reality mirrors these components of genocide. Despite claiming to target only Hamas, Israel is engaged in an all-out assault on the whole population of Gaza." Butler November 2023 Philosopher Frankfurter Rundschau Q: "Welche Reaktion erhoffen Sie sich als Unterzeichnerin des offenen Briefes "Philosophie für Palästina"?." [What reaction do you hope to get as a signatory of the open letter "Philosophy for Palestine"?] A: "Ich hoffe, dass der Völkermord an der Zivilbevölkerung in Gaza ein Ende hat. Es gibt Menschen, die sich von einem Völkermord abwenden, wenn er geschieht, und später bereuen, dass sie sich geweigert haben, das zu benennen, was sie sehen und wissen. Ich schließe mich denen an, die diese bösartige und vorsätzliche Gewalt als "Völkermord" bezeichnen, denn sie entspricht der Definition der Völkermordkonvention." [I hope that the genocide of the civilian population in Gaza will come to an end. There are people who turn away from genocide when it happens, and later regret that they refused to name what they see and know. I join those who call this vicious and deliberate violence "genocide" because it corresponds to the definition of the Genocide Convention.] Shaw November 2023 International relations prof, Sociologist specialising in genocide New Lines Magazine ""Genocide" is generally under-deployed because states wish to avoid the responsibilities to "prevent and punish" that the convention imposes on signatories, but there is a special aversion to investigating its implications for Israel’s conduct. Western states continue to protect it out of a misplaced belief that Jews, having been prime historical victims of genocide, cannot also be its perpetrators. Israel’s current policies are rapidly destroying that conceit, however, and bringing closer the day when its leaders — as well as those of Hamas — will be brought to account for their crimes." Already in article 154 Holocaust scholars November 2023 Holocaust scholars open letter at a conference in Prague "Today, more than ever, we need to reaffirm, without any caveats, the right of Jews to live in Israel and to defend themselves against those who deny Israel and Jews the right to exist. We deplore the humanitarian catastrophe of the Palestinian people in Gaza and note that it derives directly from the use of civilians as human shields by the Hamas. We, the scholars of the Holocaust assembled in Prague at the Lessons & Legacies conference, as well as other Holocaust scholars and persons devoted to Holocaust memory, unequivocally condemn the politics of terror pursued by Hamas and denounce the forces of global antisemitism." McDoom talks about the statement in this journal article Jikeli November 2023 Historian research paper "Only five posts were positive about Israel, some refuting the accusation that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians. Notorious Jewish critics of Israel, such as Norman Finkelstein (Figure 11), Gabor Maté, and Jane Hirschmann were repeatedly used to accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing and genocide, often with embedded videos.", "It is worth noting that according to the United Nations definition of genocide, the Hamas massacre is genocide, while the Gaza war is not." 48 scholars November 2023 Professor of Law and Globalisation, Professor of Criminology, Professor of Criminology, Senior lecturer in Sociology, Professor of Social Anthropology, 43 other scholars International State Crime Initiative "the Israeli state is employing its extensive and advanced military capacity to inflict violence on Palestinian peoples on such a scale that it is accurate to frame it as the annihilation phase of genocide.", "Israel's announcement of a state of 'total siege' of Gaza, cutting off water, food, electricity and medical supplies, amounted to a clear statement of intent to commit genocide against the Palestinian people by 'deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part' (Genocide Convention 1948, Article 2)." Already in article Waxman November 2023 professor of political science Jewish Currents "To be sure, some of the deeply disturbing rhetoric coming from senior figures in the Israeli government [..] raises the risk of genocidal actions. [..] However, to claim that genocide is already occurring requires stretching the concept too far, emptying it of any meaning." Already in article via Vox article Buser November 2023 Historian The Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles "This is not genocide." Blatman November 2023 Holocaust historian Haaretz "The mere fact that Israel and the Palestinians have been waging a bloody war between them for four generations, and they are both committing war crimes and hair-raising acts of violence, still does not mean that a genocide began in Gaza in October 2023" Eghbariah November 2023 Human rights lawyer and academic The Nation "Some may claim that the invocation of genocide, especially in Gaza, is fraught. But does one have to wait for a genocide to be successfully completed to name it? This logic contributes to the politics of denial. When it comes to Gaza, there is a sense of moral hypocrisy that undergirds Western epistemological approaches, one which mutes the ability to name the violence inflicted upon Palestinians.", "If the international community takes its crimes seriously, then the discussion about the unfolding genocide in Gaza is not a matter of mere semantics.", "Numerous statements made by top Israeli politicians affirm their intentions. There is a forming consensus among leading scholars in the field of genocide studies that "these statements could easily be construed as indicating a genocidal intent," as Omer Bartov, an authority in the field, writes." Verdeja November 2023 Professor of peace studies and global politics (with a focus on genocide) Time "Verdeja says Israel's actions in Gaza are moving toward a “genocidal campaign." While he notes that it is clear Israeli forces intend to destroy Hamas, "the response when you have a security crisis…can be one of ceasefire, negotiation, or it can be genocide."" Already in article Sanford November 2023 Anthropologist specialising in Human Rights and Genocide Time "City University of New York professor Victoria Sanford compares what's happening in Gaza to the killing or disappearance of more than 200,000 Mayans in Guatemala from 1960-1996, known as the Guatemalan genocide" Already in article Simon November 2023 Global Affairs professor, Director of the genocide studies Time "Israel has only explicitly said they want to exterminate Hamas, and has not directly stated intent to "destroy a religious, ethnic or racial group." Simon says it's possible a court could conclude that either Hamas or some elements of the Israel Defense Force (IDF) could be found guilty of committing an act of genocide, but "it's certainly not textbook in that connecting the intent to destroy ethnic group as such is difficult."" Already in article Kiernan November 2023 Historian, Professor of International and Area Studies Time "Israel's retaliatory bombing of Gaza, however indiscriminate, and its current ground attacks, despite the numerous civilian casualties they are causing among Gaza's Palestinian population, do not meet the very high threshold that is required to meet the legal definition of genocide." Already in article Hinton November 2023 Anthropologist, Chair on genocide prevention Time "when Mokhiber called it a "textbook case of genocide," he seemed to be "drawing on a more social scientific understanding that looks at settler colonialism and sort of this long term gradual erasure of a group."" Already in article Bartov November 2023 Holocaust and Genocide Studies professor The New York Times "As a historian of genocide, I believe that there is no proof that genocide is currently taking place in Gaza, although it is very likely that war crimes, and even crimes against humanity, are happening.", "functionally and rhetorically we may be watching an ethnic cleansing operation that could quickly devolve into genocide, as has happened more than once in the past." Already in article Friling, Jockusch, Steier-Livny, Patt & Porat November 2023 Historians and Holocaust scholars: 1; 2; 3; 4; 5 Haaretz "Charging Israel With Genocide in Gaza Is Inflammatory and Dangerous. Historians must be guided by the facts, not political agendas. But when Omer Bartov in The New York Times charged Israel with 'verging' into genocide and ethnic cleansing, he grounded his argument in assertions, not evidence." Already in article Goda & Herf November 2023 Historians and Holocaust scholars: 1; 2 New York Times "Israel's targets are military: Hamas's soldiers, tunnels, headquarters and weapons stocks. By placing military targets in and under civilian structures, it is Hamas that violates laws of war. The 1948 U.N. Genocide Convention mentions demonstrable intent to destroy a national, racial or religious group. Mr. Bartov is mute about Israel's hundreds of phone calls to Gazans warning them to leave buildings in which Hamas fighters were located. Israel has urged civilians to evacuate to the south to escape battle. A government intent on genocide would do the opposite." Michlic November 2023 genocide scholar Belfast Newletter "The left that expresses these ideas have no intellectual knowledge of international laws making clear distinctions between different ways of killings", "Israel’s war against Hamas in Gaza that entails urban house-to-house fighting that regrettably creates many civilian causalities, as in other wars of this type". Kotek November 2023 genocide scholar L'Express "The Israeli offensive on Gaza is nothing like the Herero genocide" Spencer November 2023 urban warfare researcher CNN "Israel is upholding the laws of war" Karsenti et al November 2023 Political scientist, historian and sociologists: 1; 2; 3; 4 AOC "By denying their historical connection with Palestine and by attributing a genocidal intention to those who built a state to protect themselves from any genocidal recurrence, Didier Fassin reactivates a classic anti-Semitic gesture that always proceeds by inversion: accusing the Jews of being guilty of what one is preparing to do or fantasizes about doing to them.","And yet, one must choose sides on the question of whether or not one recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist. If one recognizes it, then the massacre of civilians, intentionally targeted on its sovereign territory, gives it the right not only to defend itself, but to take the necessary measures to ensure that this can never happen again, and therefore to eliminate Hamas, whose program this is." Crane November 2023 International law scholar NPR "It's not an easy case because you have to have that smoking gun. So, you know, I respectfully disagree with his [Mokhiber's] approach on this. If you look at both parties in this tragedy that is unfolding, the prime minister of Israel has to specifically state that, I intend to destroy, in whole or in part, the Palestinian people. And I would suggest, respectfully, that that has not been said. Now, they have a long-term problem politically, practically and legally related to their treatment of the Palestinians. But I would beg to differ. I don't think one would categorize that as genocide." Corn November 2023 Professor of law and expert on military law The Jewish Chronicle "Many accuse Israel of genocide. These accusations undermine the meaning of what they allege. It might be appealing to toss such accusations about but, as Justice Stewart warned, the significance of the concept of war crimes and credibility of the law is eroded by such overbroad and often invalid accusations. One need only consider the genocide accusation. Palestinians make up 20 percent of the Israeli population with the same civil rights and legal privileges as any other Israeli citizen. How this aligns with the accusation that Israel is engaged in a systemic effort to destroy this ethnic group is perplexing. Nor do casualties in Gaza support even suspicion of genocide." The view that Palestinians enjoy the "same civil rights and legal privileges" is highly contested by other legal experts. See 2010 report, 2022 report, 2023 report Ben Hounet December 2023 Social anthropologist Lundi.am "Beaucoup de chercheurs en France et en Europe se refusent à parler de génocide et évoquent, au mieux, le terme de nettoyage ethnique. Faut-il leur rappeler que de nombreux génocides ont été perpétrés dans la continuation du nettoyage ethnique et lorsque celui-ci a été rendu impossible ? Combien de cases faudra-il cocher avant que les puissances occidentales se décident à réagir fermement et que les intellectuels se saisissent vraiment de ce sujet ?" [Many researchers in France and Europe refuse to talk about genocide and, at best, use the term ethnic cleansing. Should we remind them that many genocides have been perpetrated in the continuation of ethnic cleansing and when it has been made impossible? How many boxes will have to be ticked before Western powers decide to react firmly and intellectuals really take up this subject?] Moreno Ocampo December 2023 former chief prosecutor of the ICC Al Jazeera "The siege of Gaza itself, that is extermination or persecution as a crime against humanity, and it's a form of genocide... Inflicting conditions to destroy the group, that itself is a genocide. So creating a siege itself is a genocide, and that is very clear, that Israel want the siege is very clear. And the intentions to destroy the people, many officers from the Israel government are expressing genocidal intentions. That's why it's easy to say — under reasonable basis to believe — Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza." Already in article Ambos December 2023 professor of criminal law and head of the Department of Foreign and International Criminal Law Hard to group into a clear category "Bartov chooses his words carefully. He warns of possibly impending genocide without claiming it is happening already. Some statements of certain Israeli policymakers are indeed worrisome. Yet, while they may be relevant for proving the necessary specific intent, they cannot automatically be attributed to the persons who are taking the military decisions." Multiple specialists in international medicine December 2023 The Lancet "Before October's escalation of violence, the effect of the Israeli siege of Gaza had already been described as a "slow-motion genocide".", "We situate this violence in relation to the definition of genocide as described in Article 2 of the Genocide Convention, focusing on physical elements including killing, causing serious bodily or mental harm, creating life-threatening conditions, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children.", "As public health and humanitarian professionals, we the authors state emphatically that the grave risk of genocide against the Palestinian people warrants immediate—and now overdue—action." Already in article Finkelstein December 2023 Political scientist GV Wire "countered that Israel has been engaging in a genocidal war in Gaza since the conflict's inception" Already in article Segal et al. December 2023 60 scholars in Holocaust and Genocide Studies Contending Modernities "We, scholars of the Holocaust, genocide, and mass violence, feel compelled to warn of the danger of genocide in Israel's attack on Gaza.", "Moreover, dozens of statements of Israeli leaders, ministers in the war cabinet, and senior army officers since 7 October—that is, people with command authority—suggest an "intent to destroy" Palestinians "as such," in the language of the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide." Already in article Lemkin Institute December 2023 Antigenocide NGO Lemkin Institute "The genocide being perpetrated by the State of Israel is embedded in a complex historical, political, and strategic context that seems to have fostered and, ultimately, devolved into a pervasive genocidal dynamic on both sides of the conflict – Israel, on the one hand, and the Islamist militant organization known as Hamas, on the other – as well as among segments of their respective populations, especially, as will be explained below, in the case of Israel.", "The Lemkin Institute believes that Israel’s retaliation against Palestinians amounts not only to war crimes and crimes against humanity, but also to genocide, as also asserted by, among others, the former Director of the New York Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Craig Mokhiber." Already in article Patel December 2023 Legal researcher, reader in International law (holds LLM) Canadian Broadcasting Corporation ""The intent that we have observed is extensive and it comes from all quarters of the Israeli state," said Anisha Patel, a legal researcher with the group Law for Palestine — which provides legal analysis on international law as it relates to Palestinians." Jones December 2023 Political scientist, specialisng in genocide Canadian Broadcasting Corporation ""I believe that the events of Oct. 7 qualify as a genocidal massacre of Israelis. I also think that the Israeli response, and indeed long standing Israeli policy towards the Gazan population, evinces elements of genocidal thinking and increasingly practice," he said." Ayyash December 2023 Sociologist specialising in violence and colonialism Canadian Broadcasting Corporation "He says what's happening in Gaza is "a deliberate genocidal operation" and that Canada is complicit by having not called for a ceasefire." Spencer December 2023 genocide scholar K. online journal "As far as I am concerned, the charge of genocide against Israel is particularly shocking. It betrays a wilful refusal to recognise that Hamas has openly stated its genocidal aims, and has perpetrated acts which fall quite clearly within the definition of genocidal acts according to the Convention" Rosensaft January 2024 Professor of law, expert on genocide law Times of Israel "The word genocide is used willy-nilly by people all over the world, but genocide, as it has evolved since 1948 when the genocide convention was first adopted by the UN General Assembly, is a legal concept. And whatever else Israel is doing, and has done, it is not intending to destroy the Palestinian people; either on the West Bank or in Gaza", "Even Netanyahu, with whom I fundamentally disagree on most issues, is not planning to evict the Palestinians from Gaza. So the term genocide does not work.", "October 7 was a deliberate action by a genocidal organization that targeted Israeli — meaning Jewish — civilians: women, men, children, and the elderly." Paul January 2024 Professor of law San Fransisco Chroncile "I see no evidence that Israel is trying to destroy all or a substantial part of the Palestinians." Mirsky January 2024 Middle east and human rights expert UnHerd "South Africa was able to present evidence of genocidal-sounding intent from any number of political actors in the Netanyahu government. None of them, though, have direct decision-making authority over the conduct of the war, leading to open hostility between some of them (Itamar Ben-Gvir above all) with the IDF high command. That direct authority is reserved not just to the military professionals, but to the war cabinet, convened by Netanyahu to insulate him from his own coalition partners, and in which the political opposition to Netanyahu is well-represented; given Israeli public fury at Netanyahu, he would no longer be in power if they weren't in the room. Moreover, if genocide were Israel's aim, issuing warnings before bombings, creating humanitarian corridors (however limited), and allowing in food and other necessities would be a pretty poor way of going about it." The evidence provided by South Africa in their submission, as detailed in this Guardian article, includes comments made by Yoav Gallant (Minister of Defence and member of the Israeli war cabinet), and made by Benjamin Netanyahu (Prime Minister of Israel) as evidence of genocidal intent. Dershowitz January 2024 Professor of law Ynet "Israel did not commit genocide, the number of civilians who were killed is proportional to the number of combatants, it is lower than any war in modern history. Israel is trying its best to preserve civilian life, whereas Hamas is doing its best to take civilian lives." 1,347 francophone academics January 2024 (most relevant not all) L'Humanité "Nous nous opposons aux graves violations par Israël des droits humains et de la liberté académique des Palestiniens, à la guerre génocidaire en cours à Gaza ainsi qu'aux arrestations et détentions arbitraires en particulier celles subies par les étudiants et le personnel palestinien dans les universités de Cisjordanie." [We oppose Israel's grave violations of Palestinian human rights and academic freedom, the ongoing genocidal war in Gaza, and arbitrary arrests and detentions, particularly those suffered by Palestinian students and staff in West Bank universities.] El-Affendi January 2024 Professor of Politics and Dean of Social Sciences Journal of Genocide Research "If the (televised) Syrian genocide was the first internationally tolerated series of atrocities, then the recent genocidal violence in Gaza is the first with active input from the "international community."", "One maxim it should state is: if a series of actions approach genocide sufficiently to occasion a debate on whether they are genocide or not, then they are evil enough to be denounced without ifs or buts" Already in article Üngör January 2024 Professor of genocide studies Journal of Genocide Research "The dynamic of violence since 7 October then is not a qualitative transmutation, but a corollary of the path-dependent history of the conflict: asymmetrical power relations, and annihilatory attitudes towards civilians.", "It is also evident to most observers that the Israeli reaction is unmistakably counter-genocidal in terms of the quantity, quality, and dynamic of mass violence. Even if we disregard the quantitative dimension of the ongoing death toll, an analysis of the qualitative elements of the violence indicates a complex process of destruction." Already in article Lederman January 2024 Holocaust scholar Journal of Genocide Research "On 7 October, Gaza became a laboratory for genocidal violence. I use this term to distinguish it from genocide per se, to refer to violence that has certain genocidal characteristics but not others.", "Considering the importance of settler colonialism as a frame of analysis in genocide studies, we may do well to consider Gaza as a laboratory not just for the dynamic of settler colonialism and its contemporary relevance as underlying hegemonic legal, political, and moral frameworks, but also for the politics of applying this frame and its moral implications." Already in article Samudzi January 2024 Sociologist Journal of Genocide Research "Thus, inhered within this strategy, within Israel's retaliatory campaign on Gaza, is a transtemporal logic of genocide that attempts to neutralize the Gazan Palestinian in the present so as altogether displace and/or eliminate its presence and foreclose the possibility of its future.", "Because of the legal impunity that Israel has enjoyed, the question of genocide in Palestine transcends the applicability of the Genocide Convention (though, arguably, present violence in Gaza includes nearly every act outlined in Article II) and can be better sociologically understood through the eight techniques of genocide outlined by Lemkin himself." Already in article Levene January 2024 History Professor Journal of Genocide Research "All that said, if the utterance of genocide too obviously sticks in the craw for those like Illouz, who might read an inherent dissonance in the implication of a post-Holocaust state committing the act – arguably the ultimate Jewish taboo – there might be other routes by which we could overcome a semantic disagreement.", "The reality of the situation, whatever nomenclature genocide scholars may consider most appropriate – genocide, genocidal warfare, permanent security, urbicide, social death –the Israeli state this time has dissolved any remaining vestige (if ever there was one) of moral unassailability and given other (liberal or illiberal) states who might have their own unfinished reckonings with communal adversaries the respectability of open season to do their worst." Already in article Shaw January 2024 International relations prof, Sociologist specialising in genocide Journal of Genocide Research "Likewise warning of the potential for genocide as a maximal end-state obscured the genocidal process that was already occurring, [...] Moreover, if the United Nations Genocide Convention was an inevitable reference point, the choice to hew close to a legal tick-box exercise not only allowed defenders of Israel's violence to argued that the criteria had not been met. It also sidelined the Convention's manifold defects, recognized in the field since its inception, and those of the subsequent jurisprudence, recently exposed in the case of Ukraine.", "It was therefore essential to recognize that in genocidal war, policies radicalize. Israel's initial genocidal thrust contained the potential for a greater genocide, which might turn the right's most ambitious ideas into reality." Already in article Semerdjian January 2024 History professor, Chair of Armenian genocide studies Journal of Genocide Research "Furthermore, as the civilian/combatant distinction has collapsed, and given the scale of civilian destruction, it appears the distinction between the targeted bombing promised by "humane war" and indiscriminate bombing has largely vanished. Since everything from taking shelter in hospitals or fleeing for safety is declared a form of human shielding, the entire civilian population has been transformed into a legal target. This too is the logic of genocide.", "Terms like "civil war," "conflict," and even "counterinsurgency" frequently serve as legal cover for genocide, and in its wake, form the repertoire of genocide denial.", "For many, the killing of Palestinians in Gaza is justifiable self-defense. In the wake of 7 October, America and European allies offered support for Israel's unrestrained "right to defense" for "permanent security" in the tradition of America's own War on Terror. The problem is, genocides are also premised on the right to security and self-defense against an existential threat." Already in article International Coalition to Stop Genocide in Palestine January 2024 100 international organisations Common Dreams "urging governments across the globe to formally support South Africa's International Court of Justice case against Israel, accusing the government of genocidal violence in Gaza.", Already in article Bishara January 2024 Politicial philosopher, director of the ACRPS Al-Muntaqa, journal of the Arab Center for Research and Policy Studies "The essay contends that Israel and its allies' claim of self-defence to justify their genocidal actions in Gaza and to marginalize moral judgements is a blatant lie.", "In this case, shared identity is a motive for rejecting Israel's monopolization of the conversation, its claim to speak in the name of the Jews while committing genocide, and its distortion of that identity with its criminal practices against the Palestinian people." Includes specific responses to Habermas' arguments. Wiese January 2024 "research assistant and doctoral candidate at the Chair of European Law, Public International Law and Public Law" Stern "but is usually very difficult to prove"; "The destruction of the group must be the sole aim of the perpetrator"; under international law, there is a right to self-defence Platt January 2024 social sciences professor with a focus on genocide research Deutschlandfunk Kultur (Audio episode) "Genocide really doesn't fit here/does not fit at all" (from title) Schabas January 2024 Professor of international law WOZ Die Wochenzeitung "I am fairly certain that South Africa will win on the interim measures - but not that it will win on the main issue in four or five years' time."; "I based my statement, which I made back in October, on the statements that Israel was essentially besieging Gaza and denying it food, medicine, drinking water and electricity. I said that this alone was enough to indicate a serious risk of genocide. In my view, that risk has become even greater." Already in article via Courtroom news article Herik January 2024 professor of international public law Leiden University website That is a claim that is very difficult to prove, because you have to prove that Israel is acting with the specific purpose of exterminating the Palestinians. Sfard January 2024 Human rights lawyer The Guardian "Sfard said he was stunned by the speed with which incitement to genocide and other extreme speech had been normalised in Israel.", "The gap between that and the freedom and impunity for those who advocate all kinds of things – ethnic cleansing, killing civilians, bombarding civilian areas, and even genocide – doesn't square up, and that's something for the authorities to explain." Already in article Cohen and Shany January 2024 International Law Professors: 1 2 Just Security The raising of even more serious charges – such as the commission of genocide, the "crime of crimes" – requires an even higher commitment to factual analysis, which should include all relevant facts, including those "inconvenient" to whoever is making such claims. Many of the allegations made in this regard, including those found in the recent South African application to the ICJ appear to fall short of this standard. Still, we do consider the South African application as potentially useful in drawing more attention to the positive obligations of the State of Israel to suppress incitement to genocide and to address potentially genocidal statements made in public by Israeli influencers and politicians. Walter January 2024 Professor of international law Reputable online legal publication "Although the high number of civilian deaths and the enormous material damage are horrific, they do not necessarily prove an intent to commit genocide. For example, the repeated calls for the civilian population to leave certain parts of the area or the observance of the obligation to warn and set a deadline before withdrawing protection from a civilian hospital because it is being used outside its humanitarian purpose to commit acts harmful to the enemy speak against such an intent." Muravchik January 2024 Political scientist The Wall Street Journal "Hamas, not Israel, is guilty of genocide." Boot January 2024 Military historian The Washington Post "But while it's easy to second-guess the actions of Israeli forces, there is no evidence that they have engaged in a deliberate campaign to 'destroy, in whole or in part,' the Palestinian people — which is what 'genocide' means in international law. Awful as the civilian deaths in Gaza have been, they still constitute less than 1 percent of the territory's population. If Israel, with all the firepower at its disposal, had been trying to commit mass murder, the death toll would have been higher by orders of magnitude.", "That's why the charge of genocide has been rejected not only by the United States but also by Canada, Britain and Germany, among others." Already in article As per the determination of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia with regards to Srebrenica massacre, a majority of the population need not be killed for something to be determined to be a genocide. Swazo January 2024 Professor of philosophy] North South Journal of Peace and Global Studies "Undoubtedly, the State of Israel is an Occupying Power and subject to the law of the Geneva Conventions in the manner of its treatment of the Palestinian people. In relation to international positive law (the Geneva Conventions, the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, etc.) and the morality central to the jus gentium, the State of Israel is by no means to be excepted in the way it decides to conduct itself vis-à-vis the Palestinian people in the Occupied Territories, including Gaza. The Palestinians throughout the Occupied Territories are entitled as a matter of jus gentium to the full protection the international community of nations can muster on those grounds. Thus, Louis Rene Beres (1989, 29) is entirely correct to remind that, the Genocide Convention, along with other "human rights 'regime'" treaties and declarations, "represents the end of the idea of absolute sovereignty concerning non-intervention when human rights are in grievous jeopardy." And, this certainly applies in the case of Israel's war being waged against the Palestinian people in Gaza (with spillover effects in the West Bank and East Jerusalem as the IDF supports settler Israelis in their hostile acts of dispossession and displacement of the Palestinians in those quarters)." 1,600 academics January 2024 Various, some relevant La Jornada "Luego de rechazar cualquier discurso de odio o discriminación, llamaron a los universitarios de todo el país a apoyar diversas acciones, entre ellas sumarse al exhorto que lanzaron mas de mil 600 académicos de todo el continente a los gobiernos progresistas de América Latina para que actúen de forma conjunta contra el “genocidio” y presionen por un alto al fuego inmediato." [After rejecting any hate speech or discrimination, they called on university students throughout the country to support various actions, including joining the exhortation launched by more than 1,600 academics from all over the continent to the progressive governments of Latin America to act together against the "genocide" and press for an immediate ceasefire.] Burke-White February 2024 Professor of international law University of Pennsylvania website It should be noted that genocide is an incredibly difficult crime to prove. Genocide refers to any of a series of acts – such as the killing or the transfer of children—undertaken with "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group." Historically, courts have struggled to prove the relevant intent, which is not just murder but a concerted policy to destroy a people as a whole. For South Africa to win this case, it will need to find and provide evidence that the Israeli government's intent was not merely to prevent attacks such as those of October 7 or to degrade the capability of Hamas, but rather to annihilate the Palestinian people as a whole. Falk February 2024 Professor of international law, and Chair of EuroMed-Monitor Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor "This pattern is quite extraordinary because the states supporting Israel, above all the United States, have claimed the high moral and legal ground for themselves and have long lectured the states of the Global South about the importance of the rule of law, human rights, and respect for international law. This is instead of urging compliance with international law and morality by both sides in the face of the most transparent genocide in all of human history. In the numerous pre-Gaza genocides, the existential horrors that occurred were largely known after the fact and through statistics and abstractions, occasionally vivified by the tales told by survivors. The events, although historically reconstructed, were not as immediately real as these events in Gaza with the daily reports from journalists on the scene for more than three months." Fassin February 2024 Anthropologist and sociologist Journal of Genocide Research "It is a similar exercise that I want to propose here about the arguments used by those who have championed the right of Israel to defend itself at whatever cost for Palestinian civilians and have attacked those who have alerted the world to the risk of a genocide being perpetrated in Gaza", "As the destruction of public infrastructures, including hospitals and schools, and the tally of civilian casualties, mostly children and women, increased in Gaza on a scale never seen before in Palestine, the qualification of the war crimes committed by Israel as possibly a genocide by scholars, lawyers, experts from international organizations and even governments has generated hostile reactions in Israel and among supporters of the Israeli politics of retaliation, mostly in Western countries.", "The critics of this qualification, many of them academics, maintained that a state created for a people victim of the quintessential genocide could not be suspected of committing a similar crime", "Alerting to the prospect of a genocide being perpetrated in Gaza is stigmatized as an unconscious desire to have a genocide perpetrated against the Jews." Already in article Illouz February 2024 Professor of sociology The Forward "The people who surround him —Ben Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich — are more overtly fascist. They believe in violence. Their camp murdered Yitzhak Rabin. They hold and defend Jewish supremacist views. Their declarations after Oct. 7 amounted to calls to genocide (even though I do not think Israel is committing genocide)." Already in article Trachtenberg February 2024 Historian, specialising in Jewish History The New Yorker "Trachtenberg testified to a consensus opinion among historians of genocide that what is happening in Gaza can indeed be called a genocide, largely because the intent to cause death on a massive scale has been so clear in the statements of Israeli officials. "We are watching the genocide unfold as we speak," he said. "We are in this incredibly unique position where we can intervene to stop it, using the mechanisms of international law that are available to us."" Already in article Human Rights Watch February 2024 International human rights NGO Human Rights Watch website "The Israeli government is starving Gaza's 2.3 million Palestinians, putting them in even more peril than before the World Court's binding order", "The Israeli government has simply ignored the court's ruling, and in some ways even intensified its repression, including further blocking lifesaving aid" Already in article Amnesty International February 2024 International human rights NGO Amnesty International website "One month after the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ordered “immediate and effective measures” to protect Palestinians in the occupied Gaza Strip from the risk of genocide by ensuring sufficient humanitarian assistance and enabling basic services, Israel has failed to take even the bare minimum steps to comply, Amnesty International said today." Already in article Fakhri February 2024 Professor of law, Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food The Guardian "Michael Fakhri says denial of food is war crime and constitutes 'a situation of genocide'", "In my view as a UN human rights expert, this is now a situation of genocide." Already in article Mockaitis February 2024 Historian The Hill "The IDF campaign has left much of Gaza in ruins, displacing people and creating a massive refugee and humanitarian crisis. However, the use of excessive force stems from an aversion to [Israeli military] casualties, not genocidal intent. If the massive assault on Gaza is not genocide, it may constitute a war crime, although that will be hard to prove. El-Affendi February 2024 Professor of politics, Dean of Social Sciences Al Jazeera "Increasing partisanship in Genocide Studies threatens the field itself","An endless stream of interventions in the media accompanied and followed these initiatives, exhibiting mounting polarisation and politicization","This public split among scholars prompted the Journal of Genocide Research, the leading and oldest periodical in the field, to organise a forum on the topic 'Israel-Palestine: Atrocity Crimes and the Crisis of Holocaust and Genocide Studies'. It invited a small number of leading figures in the field","Overall, in the forum, there was uneven worry about the health of the field, but near consensus that what Israel is doing in Gaza is certainly "genocidal" if not outright genocide","I also stand by my point that the increasing polarisation and partisanship in the field, together with the 'major democracies' simultaneously assuming the role of participants and deniers, is a very serious blow to the whole endeavour of genocide prevention." Posen February 2023 Political scientist and security analyst Foreign Policy "One answer is simple. When war is fought among civilians, civilians are killed.", "Western militaries, including the IDF, try to live by these laws, though the law of armed conflict does not proscribe them from waging war. They try to follow these rules in part because they reflect the values of the societies that they serve and in part because of an expectation of reciprocity, but also because pragmatically, they know that lots of civilian casualties can become a political liability at home and abroad. Hamas spends the lives of Palestinian civilians as ammunition in an information war." Charny March 2024 genocide scholar Genocide Watch "Israel is fighting back legitimately in Self-Defense in Response and in Self-Defense against Future Genocidal Attacks that Employ Citizens as Human Shields. The Geneva Conventions specifically outlaw use of human shields and justify fighting back in response. Self-Defense does not include genocidal intent." Giroux March 2024 Scholar and culture critic Policy and Practice: A Development Education Review "While the International Court of Justice judgment should be welcomed, it is hard to imagine why there isn't an immediate call for a cease-fire and a full-fledged acknowledgment of Israel's committed war crimes and acts of genocide.", "Higher education may be one of the few sites left where prominent issues such as the genocidal war on Gaza can be analysed, engaged, and subject to the rigours of history, a comprehensive analysis, and relevant evidence." Scholars of Middle East Studies March 2024 Middle East Studies Association Al Jazeera "accelerating scale of genocidal violence being inflicted on the Palestinian population of Gaza" Already in article Segal & Daniele March 2024 Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies; Professor of law, specialising in armed conflict, humanitarian, and international law Journal of Genocide Research "Finkel reasonably concluded that it was "hard to imagine a more actionable template to destroy a national group," and that the "combination of official statements denying Ukraine and Ukrainians the right to exist, and mounting evidence of deliberate, large-scale targeting of Ukrainian civilians" left "little room for doubt" that “the threshold from war crimes to genocide" was crossed.", "Applying the same standard indicated by Finkel to the Israeli mainstream political and media discourse about Palestinians, the threshold from war crimes to genocide has been crossed before 7 October. In May 2023, a clear template to destroy a national group was proposed by Jeffrey Camras in an article in the Times of Israel. Camras proposed that "in order to right a wrong, in order to make peace and move forward, Palestine must be obliterated."", "Nonetheless, no Holocaust scholar viewed this situation in the way Finkel saw Russia's attack on Ukraine. Most Holocaust scholars, in fact, never even mentioned the large body of evidence of Israeli international crimes in the fifty-six years of Israeli occupation.", "The very different ways in which Holocaust scholars, on the one hand, and those working in Genocide Studies, on the other, have responded to the unfolding mass violence in Israel and Palestine after 7 October point to an unprecedented crisis in Holocaust and Genocide Studies. We argue that the crisis stems from the significant evidence for genocide in Israel’s attack on Gaza, which has exposed the exceptional status accorded to Israel as a foundational element in the field, that is, the idea that Israel, the state of Holocaust survivors, can never perpetrate genocide." Already in article Feldmann March 2024 Professor of international law Time, via World Socialist Website "Israel's efforts to defend itself against Hamas, even if found to involve killing disproportionate number of civilians, do not turn Israel into a genocidal actor comparable to the Nazis or the Hutu regime in Rwanda. The genocide charge depends on intent. And Israel, as a state, is not fighting the Gaza War with the intent to destroy the Palestinian people.", "These relevant facts matter for putting the genocide charge into the context of potential antisemitism. Neither South Africa nor other states have brought a genocide case against China for its conduct in Tibet or Xinjiang, or against Russia for its invasion of Ukraine. There is something specifically noteworthy about leveling the charge at the Jewish state—something intertwined with the new narrative of the Jews as archetypal oppressors rather than archetypal victims. Call it the genocide sleight of hand: if the Jews are depicted as genocidal—if Israel becomes the very archetype of a genocidal state—then Jews are much less likely to be conceived as a historically oppressed people engaged in self-defense." Pfeifer/Weipert-Fenner/Williams March 2024 Professor and scientific staff blog of peace research institute "Whether the ICJ will classify Israeli violence as genocide cannot be answered at this point in time." Albanese March 2024 Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory France 24 "The UN expert who concluded Israel was committing acts of genocide in the Gaza Strip" Already in article 1,346 academics March 2024 (some relevant not all) Academics 4 Peace "Israel's assault on Gaza appears to include both acts and intent stated in the definition of genocide.", "President Biden, do not let the United States go down in history as the enabler of genocide" Donoghue April 2024 President of the ICJ during the hearing on the SA case BBC News "The court decided that the Palestinians had a plausible right to be protected from genocide and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the court. It then looked at the facts as well. But it did not decide – and this is something where I'm correcting what's often said in the media – it didn't decide that the claim of genocide was plausible. It did emphasize in the order that there was a risk of irreparable harm to the Palestinian right to be protected from genocide. But the shorthand that often appears, which is that there's a plausible case of genocide, isn't what the court decided." Walzer April 2024 Professor/well known philosopher and political scientist Die Zeit "No. There is no genocidal intent on the Israeli side. Some members of the Israeli government want to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza and relocate them. But fortunately, they are not the decisive force in government." Bauer April 2024 Genocide scholar Kan 11 "Of course this is not a genocide. It is absolutely clear. But it doesn't mean that I justify what Israel does in Gaza. I think the killing that we cause there is what is called in academic language mass atrocities crimes. But obviously all comparisons to genocide are baseless." 1101 lawyers April 2024 Various legal scholars and practitioners Open letter to Rishi Sunak "there are reasonable grounds to believe that the threshold indicating Israel’s commission of genocide is met". "These facts demonstrate a pattern of behaviour giving rise not only to specific violations of IHL and of crimes against humanity but also, when taken together with the evidence of genocidal intent in statements by senior Israeli officials cited by the ICJ in its Provisional Order, a serious risk of genocide. That risk relates in particular to the Genocide Convention Article II (a) "killing members of the group"; (b) "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group"; and (c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or part". In light of the infant and maternal mortality rates and the destruction of Gaza’s healthcare system described above, these facts may also give rise to violations of Article II(d), i.e. "imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group"." Not in the article Whyte April 2024 Professor of philosophy, and political theorist (see also) Journal of Genocide Research "Israel's conduct in Gaza, and the US's active legal support for it, forces us to grapple with the seemingly unthinkable: a perfectly legal genocide, that is a genocide legitimized via a permissive interpretation of IHL.", "By turning to Gaza, I show that Israel has mobilized a deeply permissive account of IHL to justify its use of starvation as a tool of genocide.", "Notably absent from Power's statement was the stance for which she became famous: moral condemnation of a US administration that responds to genocide by rendering "the bloodshed two sided and inevitable, not genocidal."" McDoom April 2024 Professor of comparative politics Journal of Genocide Research "while there exists widespread consensus within the HGS community that Hamas' civilian-targeted violence should be condemned, this is not the case in respect of the Israeli government's violence. Many Holocaust and Genocide Studies (HGS) scholars have remained steadfastly silent or else uncritical of the Israeli government despite the rapidly-mounting civilian death toll", "a section of the HGS community chose not to acknowledge this possibility when voicing their views – as genocide experts – on the violence. To the contrary. Some charged Hamas with genocide against Israel. Some published further opinion to deny the Israeli government's actions constituted genocide","Their aim appeared to be to defend Israel rather than offer an impartial expert assessment of the violence", "An investigation into bias in scholarly opinion would do well to query the motivation to venture an opinion in the first place. A number of HGS centres issued official statements following the 7 October attack. The use of an institution's name and authority carries with it the implication that there is some connection either to the Holocaust or genocide. Yet the Holocaust comparison is problematic. Not simply because it belies the claim that the Holocaust was a unique event that some of the same HGS scholars forcefully make. But because the Germans were not an occupied and oppressed people. And Gaza is not a powerful, expansionary state. To the contrary.", "The bias exhibited by a section of the HGS community is not only damaging for the field's reputation, it is also self-sabotaging. Many will perceive prosemitic bias in the commentary and dismiss it as such." Goldmann April 2024 Professor of international law Junge Welt "The law professor does not expect a clear conviction of Israel in the South Africa-Israel case, nor a clear dismissal of the lawsuit." "According to Article II of the Convention, a breach occurs when an actor implements the intention to destroy a group of people in whole or in part by killing, injuring or restricting the living conditions of said group. In the case of Israel, there is no "smoking gun" that clearly proves such an intention, explained Goldmann. Statements by Israeli politicians in the media are "non-authoritative sources"" Shalhoub-Kevorkian April 2024 Professor of law, specialising in trauma, state crimes, genocide, gender violence and surveillance The Guardian "Her lawyers and international academics have condemned Hebrew University for fuelling months of political attacks on one of their faculty in the run-up to her detention. The rector called on her to resign in late 2023 after she signed a letter calling for a ceasefire in Gaza and describing Israel’s campaign as genocide, and she was briefly suspended over the podcast cited in her interrogation." Braverman April 2024 Former Attorney General of the United Kingdom LBC "I’ve been very near to the border with Gaza, and I am convinced - and I say this as a former attorney general who dealt with matters of international law and military action - that I very strongly rebut suggestions that Israel is in breach of international law, that there’s a genocide, that there’s a forced starvation." Ashour April 2024 Professor of Economics, International relations project coordinator, Organiser Docentes con Palestina Público "Este viernes, Docentes con Palestina ha convocado concentraciones a mediodía en todos los centros de enseñanza de Galicia en solidaridad con el pueblo palestino, para alertar una vez más del genocidio y para que el alumnado educado en el siglo XXI sea consciente de que está viviendo en directo uno de los peores horrores que han ocurrido en la historia de la raza humana." [This Friday, Teachers with Palestine has called for midday rallies in all educational centres in Galicia in solidarity with the Palestinian people, to warn once again of the genocide and so that students educated in the 21st century are aware that they are living in directly one of the worst horrors that have occurred in the history of the human race.], "Explicar que ahora mismo está ocurriendo un genocidio y exigir su final es difícil, pero es una tarea absolutamente pedagógica", sostiene." ["Explaining that a genocide is happening right now and demanding its end is difficult, but it is an absolutely pedagogical task," he maintains.] Talmon April 2024 Professor of international law Süddeutsche Zeitung "This is clearly a war crime. But not genocide." Patel and Ben Imran April 2024 1: Legal researcher, reader in International law (holds LLM); 2: Reader in International law (holds LLM) Al Jazeera "Last month, our organisation, Law for Palestine, made the first in a series of submissions to the ICC, characterising the crime of genocide committed by Israeli leaders against the Palestinian people. The 200-page document, drafted by 30 lawyers and legal researchers from across the world and reviewed by more than 15 experts, makes a compelling case for the genocidal intent as well as for the prosecutorial policy that the court has followed in other cases.", "We also refer to the database we have put together of more than 500 instances of Israeli incitement to genocide as additional proof. While the statements form a substantial part of the intent component of the crime of genocide, the submission goes beyond and highlights the various actions and official policies that additionally prove intent." Sassoli and Diggelmann May 2024 International Law Professors: 1; 2 SRF "«Certain statements by Israeli politicians were genocidal». There was talk of extermination. «But the actions of the Israeli army are, in my opinion, directed against Hamas and not against the entire population»"; "He does not believe that the International Court of Justice will find a generational[sic]intent to commit genocide in the South Africa v. Israel case." Pappé May 2024 Historian, specialising in Israel-Palestine Al Jazeera "What we see now are massacres which are part of the genocidal impulse, namely to kill people in order to downsize the number of people living in Gaza" Already in article Hartwig and Müller May 2024 Scholars of international law: 1; 2 digital news partnering with big newspapers "I ultimately do not see sufficient grounds for genocide if one takes the legal term seriously."; "Even if individual actions by the Israeli armed forces can be described as war crimes, they do not [necessarily - added by me] at the same time constitute genocide." Sultany May 2024 Reader in Public law Journal of Genocide Research "Legal discourse needs to match the reality of horror to maintain its relevance. Although legal scholars and commentators were slow to recognize the severity and urgency of the situation, this article sought to show that there is an emerging consensus that Israel's actions in Gaza are not another instance of armed conflict but instead amount to genocide. This genocide is committed against an integral component of the Palestinian people, a protected group under the Genocide Convention. The preceding discussion shows that obstacles facing a legal determination of genocide (namely, assessing the credibility of military logic and the existence of genocidal intent) are not insurmountable. The emerging consensus described here may not be overwhelming and will have to face opposition and potential judicial disagreement. Yet an overwhelming body of evidence supports it and a consistency in the application of standards requires it." Already in article Jamshidi May 2024 Professor of law Journal of Genocide Research "That application was preceded by weeks of public debate and insistence by Palestinians and others – including genocide scholars – that Israel was either already committing genocide against the residents of Gaza or risked committing genocide [...] The law of genocide often tells us to disregard what our eyes leave little doubt is happening. This creates a profound disconnect between the legal definition of genocide and popular and historical experiences and understandings of the term. By situating the catastrophe in Gaza both within Israel's long history of eliminationist violence towards Palestinians and fine-tuned legal arguments, South Africa has brought the law into line with the historical reality and lived-experiences of the victims of genocide, forcing a dialectical conversation between two, often, opposing planes – the law on genocide and the reality of genocide." Illouz May 2024 Professor of sociology Haaretz "A fierce military response facing unprecedented challenges in the history of warfare – because of a highly densely populated urban area, an underground city built below a civilian population – has become in the eyes of many a bona fide case of genocide", "Jews, Zionists and moderate people from all political parties and religions have watched the campus protests unfold in amazement, unable to believe the unselfconscious double standards, the baselessness of the historical parallels", "these protests give me no choice but to ask myself if, after all, something like the phantasmagoric irrationality of antisemitism is at work here." Not in the article Di-Capua May 2024 Professor of history, focusing on intellectual history and the modern Arab world Journal of Genocide Research "Conditions for the emergence of a Jewish genocidal mindset in Israel evolved gradually since the 1970s.", "Positioned at the core of rural Palestinian life, these settlements serve as intellectual incubators and experimental laboratories of genocidal politics, chief of which is ethnic cleansing.", "By and large, though the IDF avoids drafting the most radical and violent members of Hardal, given the growing size of this demographic within the army, including among the officers’ corps and the growing number of soldiers who sympathize or directly belong to these genocidal circles especially on the field level, their influence is growing.", "A decade later, and in the context of the current war in Gaza, the rhetoric of a genocidal Jewish Holy War is being pushed into the mainstream like never before and is featured in many of its ground operations, especially among the ranks of the more popular infantry and armoured divisions." Already in article Maison May 2024 Professor of international law Orient XXI "S'agissant de Gaza, la qualification de génocide peut également être sérieusement envisagée au regard, notamment, de la systématicité des attaques, de leur sens, et de leur inscription dans une offensive plus large contre la population civile." [With regard to Gaza, the qualification of genocide can also be seriously considered in view, in particular, of the systematic nature of the attacks, their meaning, and their inclusion in a broader offensive against the civilian population.], "C'est à ce moment qu’un élément inédit a été avancé en faveur d'Israël : une interview de l'ancienne présidente de la Cour internationale de justice, Joan Donoghue, affirmant que la juridiction n’aurait pas reconnu une affaire plausible de génocide (a « plausible case of genocide »). Rappelons ici que, dans son ordonnance du 26 janvier 2024, la cour affirme que le droit des Palestiniens d'être protégés contre les actes de génocide est plausible (§§ 36, 54), et qu'il existe une urgence, c'est à dire un « risque réel et imminent » de préjudice irréparable causé aux droits revendiqués (§ 61, 74). Il s'agit bien d'un risque de génocide, même si la cour n'emploie pas la formule « affaire plausible de génocide ». Les médias se sont précipités sur les propos ambigus de Joan Donoghue pour minimiser le sens de l'ordonnance et réfuter l'emploi du terme génocide." [It was at this point that a new element was put forward in Israel's favour: an interview with the former President of the International Court of Justice, Joan Donoghue, stating that the court would not have recognised a plausible case of genocide. Let us recall here that, in its order of 26 January 2024, the court affirms that the right of Palestinians to be protected against acts of genocide is plausible (§§ 36, 54), and that there is an emergency, that is to say a "real and imminent risk" of irreparable harm caused to the rights claimed (§§ 61, 74). This is indeed a risk of genocide, even if the court does not use the phrase "plausible case of genocide". The media rushed to seize on Joan Donoghue's ambiguous remarks to minimize the meaning of the order and refute the use of the term genocide.] Lévy May 2024 Philosopher France Info "Il n'y a pas de génocide à Gaza, il n'y a pas de massacre délibéré des populations civiles" [There is no genocide in Gaza, there is no deliberate massacre of civilian populations.] Rajchenberg May 2024 Professor of Economics La Jornada "Enrique Rajchenberg, profesor de la Facultad de Economía, resaltó: "Me han preguntado por qué formo parte del colectivo Académicos con Palestina contra el genocidio, desde el cual hemos condenado la política colonialista de Israel y el genocidio que comete todos los días el ejército de ese país contra la población civil palestina. "La pregunta se formula porque no sólo soy judío, sino sobre todo porque soy hijo de sobrevivientes de la Shoa, del erróneamente llamado Holocausto de los años 40 del siglo XX, uno de los episodios más drámaticos de la historia moderna. "Respondo a la pregunta: porque tengo fundadas razones biográficas y morales, mismas que me obligan a acompañar a este campamento de estudiantes, académicos y trabajadores universitarios y porque yo mismo soy trabajador académico desde hace casi medio siglo."" [Enrique Rajchenberg, professor at the Faculty of Economics, highlighted: "I have been asked why I am part of the collective Academics with Palestine against genocide, from which we have condemned Israel's colonialist policy and the genocide committed every day by the army of that country against the Palestinian civilian population. "The question is asked because I am not only Jewish, but above all because I am the son of survivors of the Shoah, of the erroneously named Holocaust of the 1940s, one of the most dramatic episodes in modern history. "I answer the question: because I have well-founded biographical and moral reasons, which oblige me to accompany this camp of students, academics and university workers and because I myself have been an academic worker for almost half a century."] Several professors June 2024 Several professors, including: Professor of information theory; Professor of political science; Professor of sociology, with a specialism in politics; Professor of sociology El País "La introducción al texto presentado por los catedráticos enumera cinco peticiones dirigidas al rector de la UCM: una condena "clara y explícita" de la destrucción deliberada de las universidades palestinas y el ataque a profesores, estudiantes y personal universitario; la petición de alto al fuego "inmediato y permanente"; la cancelación de toda colaboración con universidades israelís "que se relacionen con el genocidio de Gaza"; financiar programas para acoger a estudiantes y maestros palestinos; y la cancelación de toda colaboración con empresas o instituciones "que otorguen un apoyo directo o al genocidio en Gaza"." [The introduction to the text presented by the professors lists five requests addressed to the rector of the UCM: a "clear and explicit" condemnation of the deliberate destruction of Palestinian universities and the attack on professors, students and university staff; the request for an "immediate and permanent" ceasefire; the cancellation of all collaboration with Israeli universities "that are related to the genocide in Gaza"; funding programmes to welcome Palestinian students and teachers; and the cancellation of any collaboration with companies or institutions "that provide direct support or genocide in Gaza".] Khan June 2024 Professor of international law ZDF "The defining element is above all the intent to destroy, which, however, can currently hardly be proven by the Israeli leadership" 758 Scholars of the Middle East June 2024 Brookings Institution "A majority of Middle East scholars see Israeli motives in Gaza to be about forcing Palestinians out [57%]" "How would you define Israel's current military actions in Gaza? Response: Major war crimes akin to genocide (41%), Genocide (34%), Major war crimes but not akin to genocide (16%), Unjustified actions but not major war crimes (4%), Justified actions under the right to self-defense (4%)". Already in article Neier June 2024 Human rights activist The New York Review "Hamas has embedded itself in the civilian population of Gaza, and its extensive network of tunnels provides its combatants the ability to move around quickly. Even if Israel's bombers were intent on minimizing harm to civilians, they would have had difficulty doing so in their effort to destroy Hamas. And yet, even believing this, I am now persuaded that Israel is engaged in genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. What has changed my mind is its sustained policy of obstructing the movement of humanitarian assistance into the territory." Comments about how these actions are "indicative of genocide" are already in article attributed to Neier via this CNN interview Akram June 2024 LAW clinical professor of law and director of LAW's International Human Rights Clinic Boston University Today & University Network for Human Rights Q:"For all of the condemnation of Israel's actions, there is also strong opposition to Israel's actions being labeled a genocide. Where does that pushback come from?". A:"The opposition is political, as there is consensus amongst the international human rights legal community, many other legal and political experts, including many Holocaust scholars, that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza." Already in article Ali June 2024 Head of international law department at Bindmans LLP Middle East Monitor "He emphasised that, despite Israel's own repetition of genocidal intent, "Western leaders are guilty of viewing Palestine and Israel through the prejudiced prism of a merciless Palestinian terrorists against the gentle Jewish victims who are desperately maintaining the only democracy in the Middle East."" Also includes new comments from Albanese and Sultany Jacquet June 2024 Professor of diplomacy and geopolitics Anadolu Agency ""Given the extent of the war crimes and the military operations carried out by the Israeli army on the ground, this situation can be considered genocide according to a growing number of international lawyers," Jacquet said." Ak June 2024 Professor of political science Journal of Humanity, Peace and Justice "this research will also contribute to the related field of the social sciences as being the first clear example of genocide acts perpetuated by Israel so far in one of the whole Palestine territory like the Gaza Strip.", "At first, it will not be wrong to claim that the Palestinian cause regarding recent Israeli Gaza assaults is a trickling genocide, slow but relentless." McAlister June 2024 Professor of history Canadian Foreign Policy Journal "The genocide in Gaza is an opportunity for Canada to change that. A majority of Canadians may want to see a ceasefire in Gaza, but are they or their political representatives prepared to condemn the genocide?" Choonara June 2024 Professor of political economy International Socialism "US president Joe Biden, along with British foreign secretary David Cameron, were also isolated in their backing for Israel's genocidal offensive in Rafah." Suslovic et al. June 2024 Reader in social welfare; Professor of social work; Professor of social work; Professor of social work; Professor of social work; Organizer; Professor of social work Abolitionist Perspectives in Social Work "Since October 7, 2023, the world has witnessed Israel's unrelenting mass assault against the people of Gaza, killing more than 37,000 Palestinians. The response to this genocide in most sectors of professional society has largely been one of denial and suppression of solidarity with Palestine, unveiling extremes of the longstanding Palestine exception in progressive politics. This article contextualizes the social work profession's response to Israel's ongoing genocide of Palestinian people after October 7, 2023, including responses from schools of social work, social work agencies and organizations, and academic journals." Ballantyne and Beddoe June 2024 Professor of social welfare; Professor of social work Aotearoa New Zealand Social Work "Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised that the most-read article published in 2023 was a special editorial on Justice for Palestine included in issue four (Ballantyne et al., 2023). This was a statement by editorial collective members on the situation in Palestine. In the context of the genocide, we were all witnessing on our television screens and the silence of the IFSW on this matter, we felt compelled to comment. Since that editorial was published in December 2023, the horrifying death toll has not stopped climbing, and despite the statements made by the International Criminal Court to halt the ground invasion of Rafah, Israel continues its assault on Gaza and the West Bank unabated. The editorial collective continues to express our utmost solidarity with the Palestinian people and our deep concern for the future prospects of an international rules-based order that respects all peoples' human rights, including the right to self-determination." Green June 2024 Professor of Law and Globalisation State Crime Journal "Just two months after this special issue was finalized Israel launched its catastrophic, genocidal assault on Gaza.", "As this timely and crucially important volume demonstrates Israel's genocide of the Palestinians is bound both to the logic of settler colonialism and to the necessity of its abolition.", "What we are witnessing now, not only in Gaza but across historic Palestine is the denouement in Israel's genocide of the indigenous Palestinians…a second Nakba and as Knesset member Arial Kallner demanded one that dwarfs the Nakba of 1948." Mordechai June 2024 Historian The National ""The enormous amount of evidence I have seen, much of it referenced later in this document, has been enough for me to believe that Israel is currently committing genocide against the Palestinian population in Gaza," Mr Mordechai said in the introduction to a report he published." The report, he previously wrote an article in Jacobin in April 2024 about the ongoing war crimes of the IDF, available here. Rocafort, Hassan, Casani June 2024 Professor of political science; Professor of computer science; Professor of political science elDiario.es "Después de ocho meses de genocidio en Gaza y más de 37.000 muertos palestinos, son cada vez más las voces que llaman al boicot académico a las universidades israelíes." [After eight months of genocide in Gaza and more than 37,000 Palestinian deaths, there are more and more voices calling for an academic boycott of Israeli universities.], "Existen ya diversos casos particulares de represión directa desde las universidades contra profesorado crítico con el genocidio." [There are already several particular cases of direct repression from universities against professors critical of the genocide.], "Al contrario, las universidades israelíes han sido una fuerza activa en la legitimación y mantenimiento de un sistema de segregación que ha sido considerado equivalente al apartheid sudafricano. Ahora mismo son colaboradores necesarios en el genocidio en curso." [On the contrary, Israeli universities have been an active force in legitimizing and maintaining a system of segregation that has been considered equivalent to South African apartheid. Right now they are necessary collaborators in the ongoing genocide.] Horesh June 2024 Professor of linguistics elDiario.es "Uri Horech, profesor judío israelí de lingüística, fue despedido del Achva Academic College tras acusar públicamente a Israel de cometer un genocidio." [Uri Horech, an Israeli Jewish professor of linguistics, was fired from Achva Academic College after publicly accusing Israel of committing genocide.] Goldberg July 2024 Professor of Jewish history Jacobin "I admit that, at first, I was reluctant to call it genocide, and sought any indication to convince myself that it is not. No one wants to see themselves as part of a genocidal society. But there was explicit intent, a systematic pattern, and a genocidal outcome — so, I came to the conclusion that this is exactly what genocide looks like. And once you come to this conclusion, you cannot remain silent." Already in article UN Special Rapporteurs July 2024 SR right to food, SR physical and mental health, SR human rights in the Palestinian Territory, SR drinking water and sanitation, SR human rights OF displaced persons, Independent Expert on the promotion of a democratic and equitable international order, Working Group of Experts on People of African Descent United Nations "We declare that Israel's intentional and targeted starvation campaign against the Palestinian people is a form of genocidal violence and has resulted in famine across all of Gaza. We call upon the international community to prioritise the delivery of humanitarian aid by land by any means necessary, end Israel's siege, and establish a ceasefire." Semerdjian July 2024 History professor, Chair of Armenian genocide studies Journal of Genocide Research "By comparing contemporary examples of starvation warfare in Artsakh and Gaza, I seek to reintroduce the concept of genocide by attrition formulated by Raphael Lemkin in Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Laws of Occupation, Analysis of Government, Proposals for Redress (1944). Helen Fein's 1997 essay "Genocide by Attrition, 1939–1993: The Warsaw Ghetto, Cambodia, and Sudan," gave formal nomenclature to this genocidal tool.", "The carceral conditions produced by the 2006 enclosure of the Gaza Strip could be called Gazification. Land and territory are not only bifurcated with a discrete line separating two parts, but are fractured several times over through the creation of physical and digital checkpoints, "safe zones," and border inspections designed to make life suffocatingly unlivable. In order to survive, superfluous beings who resist these necropolitical forces live fugitive lives. Gazification should, therefore, be understood as an instrument of genocide by attrition that predates Hamas' attack on Israel on October 7."

Levivich (talk) 17:07, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

• In that case, having read the sources in the template, I'm inclined to oppose the inclusion of Gaza here. The entry that swayed my opinion most was the Brooking Institute in June saying A third of scholars see Israel's military actions in Gaza as 'genocide' [34%] While I'm aware that the article itself mentions that an additional 40 percent of the scholars liken Israeli actions to "major war crimes akin to genocide," I don't consider that a classification of genocide in and of itself. Therefore, the fact that Israeli actions in Gaza amounting to genocide is a minority opinion in what I think it's reasonable to conclude is the segment of the scholarly population most likely to hold that opinion means that don't think Gaza should be included on this list out of an abundance of caution. (And out of a similar abundance of caution, I don't think this list should include any ongoing genocides until the dust has settled, but the implications of that opinion for the list leaves the scope of this RfC.) DecafPotato (talk) 04:54, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

  😂 Levivich (talk) 19:38, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

  ? - IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:49, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment — The real question here is what is the scope of this article? If the criteria is "recognition in significant scholarship as a genocide", as is stated in the lead of this article currently, then clearly this belongs. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 03:03, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
• Include Significant historic genocide that has already been the subject of international decision making in the International Court of Justice. Dimadick (talk) 07:52, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
• Include. Historians like Pappé have been describing it as a genocide for years. Recent scholarship and international law decisions confirm it.-My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 13:09, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
• Include Why wouldn't we? The article Gaza genocide exists, the result of a veritable fountain of expert sourcing supporting the view that such a thing is beyond mere assertion, whatever the disagreement.Selfstudier (talk) 13:51, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
• Don't include. Just as there are many sources calling it a genocide, there are many others disputing that (see the discussion here). Also, the argument that the relevant article is now named Gaza genocide is spurious and should be ignored by the closer. The move is under review now and in any case Wikipedia is not an RS. Alaexis_¿question? 08:44, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
• Don't include - We should avoid including this in the list due to significant controversy and lack of international consensus. The status of events in Gaza as genocide is highly disputed, and there's no unified recognition from the international community. Adding it could compromise Wikipedia's neutrality. Including Gaza in the list of genocides could set a precedent for adding other highly disputed events, potentially leading to an influx of controversial and politically charged entries. This could undermine the integrity and credibility of the list as a whole, making it harder for readers to trust the information presented.Eladkarmel (talk) 08:28, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
• Include - It's likely that by the end of current conflict, 10% of the population of the strip will have likely perished. I wonder how people would react if this kind of mortality occurred in a western country. Say if some entity eliminated 30 million Americans or something. What kind of language would get bandied about then? My sense is people wouldn't hesitate to call it the "destruction of a people in whole, or in part". NickCT (talk) 12:16, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

  I don't know how did we arrive at 10%, it's currently ~38,000 people, around 1.7% of Gaza's population (if we accept the Hamas-run sources, which also include an unknown but significant number of Hamas militants). During World War II, approximately 8.23% of Germany's population died. Does this mean the Allies committed genocide against the German people? The answer is no. They were not systematically planned or executed with the intent to exterminate the German population. I don't get this logic. HaOfa (talk) 14:20, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

  That's true. It's not measured in deaths. It's measured in bringing about the end of conditions that maintain life and a society, like, I don't know, razing an entire territory to the ground, destroying the civic infrastructure, killing every doctor, scholar, poet and medic, torturing civilians to death in detention centres – all of that fascistic stuff. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:03, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

  The number you cite is deaths directly attributal to conflict (i.e. people hit by bombs and bullets). The number discussed in the Lancet piece I linked to is the excess mortality figure (i.e. it includes things like deaths from the starvation and disease arising from the conflict). I guess the allies weren't really trying to rid a place of Germans (except maybe France), which I guess is what makes the parellel different. NickCT (talk) 18:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

• Include: It's a list of "genocides", and the clue is in the name. It's not a list of court-ruled genocides, scholarly consensus genocides or anything else. The very notion of not including Gaza genocide seems to rather spit in the face of the RM and community consensus that determined it be named as such. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:22, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

  But it is, the article clearly says that it includes only scholarly consensus genocides. HaOfa (talk) 14:22, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

  No, it says "recognised in significant scholarship", which Gaza genocide is, hence the RM result. This is just going to keep going around in circles. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:57, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

• Include. As the above table demonstrates, the body of academic opinion that this is genocide is large and growing. I also point to the 17-page legal opinion, written in April this year to the British government and signed by over 600 lawyers (including former Supreme Court judges) that has condemned Israel's actions as genocidal (see here). In addition, the ICJ said in its interim ruling on the South African case that Israel would be in breach of the Genocide Convention if it continued to block the provision of aid to Gaza, which it has done. TRCRF22 (talk) 17:07, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
• Don't Include. THE UN did not say that there is a genocide. Only Francesca Albanese and she's clearly a very controvertial figure. As long as most countries do not recognize this as a genocide and academics and experts are divided on this, this remains an extremely minority view, and should not be included in the list. ABHammad (talk) 07:36, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  What is this rambling comment? The UN isn't particularly relevant here and no one has based their assessment on it, so that's a straw man. Genocides are also not determined by "most countries recognizing them"; I'm not sure if countries recognising genocides has ever been much of thing, let alone a metric that anyone is following. Occasionally there are stories about countries refusing to recognize genocide, but that's normally the accused, like Serbia re: Bosnians; Turkey re: Armenians; etc. The standard here is relevant experts, and to state with any confidence that it's a minority view you'd have to either show more relevant experts rejecting the notion than affirming it, or produce a source that specifically declares it to be a minority scholarly assessment. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:15, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  @ABHammad: The UN said precisely this. The UN Special Rapporteur on human rights in the Occupied Territories represents all the UN members and is precisely the UN that speaks. — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:51, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  Francesca Albanese is a highly controversial figure who has faced criticism from the US, UK, and France for her extreme anti-Israel bias. Some leading figures even described her opinions as bordering on antisemitism. Recently, there have been investigations into her potential connections with Hamas. Since all these controversies exist, and the calls from the US for her dismissal, calling her "the UN that speaks" and using her opinion as the truth is very very problematic. Galamore (talk) 07:06, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

  Anyone who criticizes Israeli actions will be characterized by many as a controversial figure with an anti-Israel bias whose views border on antisemitism. This is true regardless of the role of the person. It is even true for humble Wikipedia editors. The relevant fact of the matter from Wikipedia's perspective is that she is the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territories. Sean.hoyland (talk) 07:44, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

  US, UK and France are three of Israel's greatest allies/supporters... IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 07:48, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Galamore: This is BLP violation territory, per WP:BLPTALK. I suggest you heavily redact the above. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

  Francesca Albanese was not the only UN Special Rapporteur to describe it as genocide. Multiple others have done so as well, including Paula Gaviria Betancur, Michael Fakhri and other UNSRs from relevant areas. TRCRF22 (talk) 18:53, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

• Include The United Nations includes Israel and all of its arms benefactors as a member country. They would deny genocide, wouldn't they? Dozens of reliable sources and scholars of genocide, unconnected from participation in the massive destruction regard it as such, and there's very few examples more clear-cut of genocide than what's happening in Gaza. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 22:01, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• Include. The policy question here is which side should be given more WP:WEIGHT: that Gaza genocide is a genocide, or it isn't. There are ~140 entries at Template:Expert opinions in the Gaza genocide debate, but two entries have been endorsed by hundreds of scholars, so lets focus on those:
  • April: A letter by law experts in the UK wrote "there are reasonable grounds to believe that the threshold indicating Israel’s commission of genocide is met". This was signed 59 professors of law and 105 lecturers of law (1,001 lawyers in total).
  • May-June: A survey by Middle East Scholar Barometer of 750 of Middle Eastern Studies scholars found: 75% defined Israel's actions as either major war crimes akin to genocide, or genocide, vs 24% who don't.
• Alternatively, we can focus on peer-reviewed scholarly publications in that table published in the last few months. The existence of Gaza genocide is supported by Semerdjian (Journal of Genocide Research, July); Green (State Crime Journal, June); McAlister (Canadian Foreign Policy Journal, June); Ak (Journal of Humanity, Peace and Justice, June); Di-Capua (Journal of Genocide Research, May); Jamshidi (Journal of Genocide Research, May); Sultany (Journal of Genocide Research, May) etc. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 23:47, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

  "The policy question here is which side should be given more WP:WEIGHT: that Gaza genocide is a genocide, or it isn't." — This is not true. The current criteria includes any events "recognised in significant scholarship as genocides". We don't need to, and shouldn't, be saying whether or not it is a genocide, but just that there is significant scholarship which considers it to be. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 00:13, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

  My mistake, it turns out that previous consensus was indeed achieved here on the inclusion criteria being ""that are recognised in significant scholarship as genocides"". We ought to be following the WP:LISTCRITERIA consistently, and can't exclude a genocide that meets that criteria arbitrarily.

• Don't include. This event is not widely recognized as genocide, and the allegation itself has been described by many as inaccurate and politicized. We should keep this page focused on actual, widely accepted cases. Otherwise, this article, which is supposed to be neutral and encyclopedic, could turn into a propaganda page used in future conflicts to attack opponents with unverified allegations. Galamore (talk) 07:03, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Have you read the criteria that is required to be included in this list? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 11:35, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

This has been going back and forth for a while, so let's go ahead and continue with the WP:DR steps. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:46, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

This does not pertain to the RFC question. Lets wait till it is resolved before we wikilawyer over the status quo. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:36, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Comment: The page included Gaza genocide at the time of publishing this RfC, as it was added two weeks prior. The question should possibly be about whether to remove it. — kashmīrī TALK 23:01, 24 July 2024 (UTC) This content was never stable on this page, and was forced in through edit warring. WP:ONUS: "The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." HaOfa (talk) 17:08, 25 July 2024 (UTC) This does not dispute the inclusion of Gaza prior to the RfD, in line with other similar conflicts like Rohingya. Ecpiandy (talk) 17:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• I think that we might need to clarify the standard for inclusion a bit. Currently it says the list is things that are recognised in significant scholarship as genocides, but this is ambiguous in a way that is leading to the split above - does it mean "significant scholarship exists that describes this as a genocide, even if it's in the minority", or does it mean "the consensus of all significant scholarship on the topic, taken collectively, is that it is a genocide?" Normally I think we use the latter standard for whether to call something a genocide in the article voice or not. --Aquillion (talk) 08:26, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

  I'm inclined towards the former reading, mostly because the language parallels WP:WEIGHT. That said we should defiantly explain the state of current scholarly disagreement here for any entry—blindlynx 11:07, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

  I think that the latter option — that inclusion requires the consensus of significant scholarship – is best for the article, but I think that this question would be best posed as a separate RfC given its overarching scope. DecafPotato (talk) 08:07, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

  I don't see a difference between the two, consensus of a significant portion of scholarship can still be in the minority—blindlynx —blindlynx 18:54, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

It matters because, if it's in the minority view (or even if it's a plurality but is clearly disputed enough to not be an overall scholarly consensus), then we might mention it but wouldn't put it in the article voice. And this can be tricky for a list, where inclusion in a list of X carries an implication of "this is definitely X"; the list is "list of genocides", not "list of things scholars have described as genocides". --Aquillion (talk) 08:56, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

How do you assess the majority/minority? By the number of occurrences? By the number of copies printed? Are different academic publications weighted against each other, e.g., by impact factor? Is a UN report more or less of a majority opinion vs a thinktank report?

My feeling is that majority/minority can sometimes be merely abstract concepts on Wikipedia that get brought up simply to deny inclusion of specific opinion, under the pretext that the other side didn't provide that abstract "evidence of majority".

IMO, an opinion that's accepted beyond a niche community is probably WP:DUE for inclusion on Wikipedia, and then can be summarised in the lead, too, if it helps the reader to understand the subject better. — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:29, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

There's an important difference between just mentioning something (which certainly does not require a majority; we cover minority views all the time) and putting it in the article voice (which implicitly treats it as established fact.) See eg. the dispute over how to cover the "Uyghur genocide" above, which similarly concerned the article title - there are definitely many sources using the term, and we would definitely cover those sources, there was never any doubt about that; it's just that there's not a clear scholarly consensus that it's a genocide, so we can't call it one in the article voice ourselves. The question of whether we can include something that lacks that sort of scholarly consensus in this list therefore hinges on whether inclusion in this list amounts to Wikipedia itself saying, in the article voice, "yes this is definitely a genocide." And if it's not intended to convey that, we should consider changing the name. (This is a common issue with lists that have "sweeping" declarative titles.) If the list is intended to contain a bunch of entries saying "respectable scholars A, B, and C call this event a genocide; scholars X, Y, and Z disagree" then it's not a list of genocides, is it? --Aquillion (talk) 05:35, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand, everything on wikipedia follows wp:Reliable sources so this has to be a 'list of list of things scholars have described as genocides' because scholars are the WP:BESTSOURCES—blindlynx 21:44, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

This is definitely an unorthodox comparison but over on the video-game side of Wikipedia we don't have a "List of the best video games" but a "List of video games considered the best," which has a strict inclusion criteria in which a game needs to be considered "among the best" by a set amount of reliable sources. It's not a 1:1 transition, obviously, but it might be worth restructuring this list slightly in that vein to relieve issues of wikivoicing, where an objective (or as close as one can get to objective) criteria can be set for inclusion. DecafPotato (talk) 12:56, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. This actually seems like a sound suggestion to me. CAVincent (talk) 17:28, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

To be clear are you proposing a title change or modifing the inclusion criteria? —blindlynx 21:02, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• But the level of sourcing needed to present something as a contested opinion with in-text attribution - "these scholars say ABC; these other scholars say XYZ" - is different from the level of sourcing needed unambiguously present something as fact. I think it's reasonably obvious that this is a situation where there's sufficient sourcing to present it as an opinion that many scholars of note hold, but not sufficient sourcing to present it as absolute uncontested truth. And that's a problem if inclusion in the article implicitly treats an event's status as a genocide as uncontested truth, at least within academia. --Aquillion (talk) 05:38, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

  This isn't and shouldn't be list as presenting uncontested truth though. It's a list of events where where there is enough scholarship that we should mention them, ie. their inclusion is WP:DUE. As DecafePotato said it's worth making this clearer—blindlynx 14:22, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

  The text of the disputed entry read "Israel has been accused by experts, governments, UN agencies and non-governmental organizations of carrying out a genocide against the Palestinian population during its invasion and bombing of Gaza during the ongoing Israel–Hamas war." — No one is proposing to present this designation as a genocide as an "absolute uncontested truth".

  More wording discussing its disputed status could be appropriate and perhaps the background of the entry in the table for the Gaza genocide could be made yellow or red to more clearly indicate its contested status. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 17:59, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

• See these two previous discussions which are relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_genocides/Archive_13#Proposed_change_of_the_inclusion_criteria_to_align_with_Genocide_scholarship, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_genocides#Inclusion_of_Gaza_genocide -IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 00:55, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Section for the Kalinago

Glancing through this list, I was a bit surprised there was no mention of the Kalinago or Carib peoples. The depopulation of the native peoples of the Caribbean was probably one of the most complete destructions of a peoples resulting from European colonialism. Is there any objection to their inclusion? NickCT (talk) 12:26, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I think Kalinago genocide would need a lot more academic sources that explicitly describe it using the term genocide. Right now there seem to be none in the article. — MarkH₂₁^talk 12:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. I really don't like that Kalinago genocide article. The subject of the article seems to be a massacre of Kalinago's on a single island. But the Kalinago were massacred on, and or displaced from, many different islands. I feel like the article covers the wrong topic, or only covers a small portion of what is a larger topic. NickCT (talk) 18:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I would support adding this to the list. It clearly meets the definition of genocide and there are several academic sources to support it. For example, Lennox Honychurch supports the classification in this paper for the University of the West Indies, and historian Melanie J. Newton describes it as such in her article "The Race Leapt at Sauteurs: Genocide, Narrative, and Indigenous Exile from the Caribbean Archipelago". Additionally Doctor Andreas Buser, a legal scholar from the University of Berlin, says in a 2016 article for the Heidelberg Journal of International Law (here) that the killings of the Kalinago people could be considered genocide. More citations might be helpful (I think this might also be discussed in Chalk and Jonassohn's The History and Sociology of Genocide, but I can't at this moment lay my hand on the passage), but there does seem to me to be something of a consensus. TRCRF22 (talk) 18:54, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

TRCRF22 if you wouldn't mind adding information from the sources you mention here to the Kalinago article it would be brilliant. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 20:28, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I've added Newton and Buser. Unfortunately I didn't realise that the article under discussion only dealt with one specific massacre rather than the wider persecution of the Carib peoples, which is what Honychurch's paper deals with, so that one doesn't fit into the article. TRCRF22 (talk) 15:47, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I sorta feel like article's scope is wrong. The subject of the article should be the wider persecution. NickCT (talk) 14:14, 1 August 2024 (UTC)