Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard
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| Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN) | ||||||||||||
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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
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| Case | Created | Last volunteer edit | Last modified | ||||
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| Title | Status | User | Time | User | Time | User | Time |
| Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV | Resolved | Avi8tor (t) | 13 days, 23 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 14 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 14 hours |
| Norse Deity pages | In Progress | Dots321 (t) | 6 days, 12 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 10 hours | Dots321 (t) | 3 hours |
| List of South Korean girl groups | In Progress | 98Tigerius (t) | 6 days, 7 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 10 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 10 hours |
| Benevolent dictatorship | New | Banedon (t) | 5 days, 12 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 11 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 11 hours |
| Talk:Taylor Swift | Closed | Gsgdd (t) | 5 days, 5 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 4 days, 15 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 4 days, 15 hours |
| Kylie Minogue | New | PHShanghai (t) | 2 days, 20 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 16 hours | PHShanghai (t) | 8 hours |
If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 11:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
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Current disputes[edit]
Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV[edit]
Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning. | Apparently resolved. There is agreement on the units to be used in the articles in question. There is also agreement that any further discussion will take place at the automobile project conventions guideline talk page, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Conventions . Robert McClenon (talk) 00:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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- My understanding is we use Wikipedia:WikiProject Automobiles/Conventions, specifically for power and torque the section: Power and torque. Avi8tor (talk) 16:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Norse Deity pages[edit]
– Discussion in progress.Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Thor (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Odin (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Baldr (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Sif (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Horagalles (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- Dots321 (talk · contribs)
- Bloodofox (talk · contribs)
- VeryRarelyStable (talk · contribs)
- Yngvadottir (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
The inclusion of infoboxes, I saw that the Norse deity pages didn't include them when pages from other mythologies did like Greek, Roman, Canaanite, etc. But Bloodofox is against said inclusion of the infoboxes despite their inclusion on said previous articles.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Thor#June_2024
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Either the removal of the deity info box template and subsequent removal from any pages using them or the inclusion of infoboxes for all Norse deities
Summary of dispute by Bloodofox[edit]
Every so often, a user will come by and insist that we have infoboxes on these articles, demanding that since other articles have them, we must have them too. This always gets rejected as pointless (For example: 2008: "Infobox": Clear consensus against, 2011: "Infobox": Clear consensus against, 2017: "Infobox redux": Clear consensus against, etc.)
This time the user insisting we use infoboxes has now so far been reverted by two editors: myself and @Yngvadottir: (who the user did not tag here). Our Norse myth-related articles have a long history of being not only some of the very best-sourced mythology related articles on the site, but the editors who built them consistently reject these as being unhelpful and misleading to the reader: gods are complex, with contradictory and/or source-dependent information surrounding them and no shortage of theories associated with them. Meanwhile, infoboxes treat them like some kind of car model or Marvel Comics character. They are at best redundant with the first few sentences or paragraph of these articles.
Typical of these infobox demand flare ups, the user demanding we use infoboxes also insists that we bundle them with misinformation. Here the user has shown a poor understanding of the material they're editing about, insisting on misinformation Sif as "god of wheat", Baldr as "god of light", Odin as "god of wisdom, and so forth, like some kind of shoddy 19th century grade school text.
As for invoking other (terrible) mythology-related articles as a defense for why we need infoboxes: Most of our myth and general folklore articles are unfortunately still awful and badly need to be rewritten from scratch but our Norse myth articles are fortunately in a much better state than most. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:36, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by VeryRarelyStable[edit]
Although this discussion has been ongoing, a comment of mine on Talk:Thor (following edits by Dots321 on Thor) has become the kernel of the current dispute.
Thor and the other Norse mythology articles have a long consensus, if consensus it be, of disdaining the use of infoboxes as suitable for (for example) cartoon characters or cars or other "simple" subjects where all the facts are known. My opening comment pointed out that this attitude mischaracterizes the usage and purpose of infoboxes. That point is being ignored on the talk page now, where it is once again being asserted that infoboxes are not suitable because this is not a simple subject where all the facts are known.
I tried to make clear that my comment was about the usage of infoboxes generally, but the ongoing dispute has (understandably but frustratingly) returned to the most recent specific infobox added to the page.
—VeryRarelyStable 03:06, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
Norse Deity pages discussion[edit]
I'm not sure whether I should post to this page, or whether if so, it should be here, but Dots321 has also not mentioned that their infobox addition at Thor was first reverted by still another editor, TylerBurden, on grounds of lack of sourcing. Dots321 is focusing only on Bloodofox, but both in the past and currently (at Talk:Thor—as I recall, there have been past discussions also at the talk pages for Odin and Loki), Bloodofox is merely one of the editors who have discussed infoboxes in relation to Norse mythology articles and determined that there is no compelling reason for consensus against them to change. (The last of Bloodofox's discussion links above is wrong: the 2020 "Infobox, redux" discussion is here.) Dots321 suggests a ruling that Norse mythology articles must use the infobox, or else that the infobox must not be used anywhere. That's clearly outside the scope of this noticeboard, and it's an extreme false dichotomy (or maybe simply begging the question of whether infoboxes should be used consistently in deity articles). Before responding in the ongoing discussion, I reviewed the past discussions and I see no indication that the issue has been dismissed or that editors arguing for infoboxes have been treated disrespecfully, in the past or now. Also, while Dots321 is not alone on the talk page at present in advocating an infobox, at this point Dots321 is edit-warring in the Thor article. Yngvadottir (talk) 01:56, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- The idea that I'm currently edit warring is false and in fact stopped on my second round of reverts to open this dispute. I didn't bring up TylerBurden because the incident with them is irrelevant to this current discussion. Tyler burden assumed what i added was not on the articlse when in fact they were, I even went as far as finding and linking a source that was already present on the Sif page see [[8]].
- I will also note to Bloodofox and potentially Yngvadotir that it is not allowed to comment on the contributor on this noticeboard but only their contributions. Bloodofox is very much allowed to comment on the quality of my contributions but the needless attacks against me like "Typical of these infobox demand flare ups, the user demanding we use infoboxes also insists that we bundle them with misinformation. Here the user has shown a poor understanding of the material they're editing about, insisting on misinformation Sif as "god of wheat", Baldr as "god of light", Odin as "god of wisdom, and so forth, like some kind of shoddy 19th century grade school text." are very much unwarranted and uncivil in discussion.
- Onto about my proposed resolution I am someone how likes things to be standardized which is why I implemented infoboxes in the first place. So the resolution I proposed was very much steeped in this philosophy. Even though I am aware that the first proposed resolution is out of the scope of this noticeboard I proposed it to at least start some discussion about the subject my bad on my end.
- I will now discuss why I think infoboxes are beneficial. Bloodofox and Yngvadottir dislikes the use of infoboxes as they claim that they are redundant and over simplify the subject. While i do agree that infoboxes simplify the subject as that is their purpose, I disagree that they are redundant. As although they can just implement information already said at the beginning of the article, they can also bring information from further down the article. Like if a god is the equivalent with another god from a different mythology, as those are generally further down an article. And thus only readers who read the whole article or those that would read the subsection would know about that subject. Thus if an infobox was implemented readers who aren't those types and would just read the summery would be informed on a subject they would otherwise not know of. Although infoboxes are simple if the reader is interested enough they will read the article for a more detailed summery. Dots321 (talk) 10:13, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you don't know what you're talking about, expect to get called out on it. Don't try to insert misinformation in Wikipedia articles. Learn about a topic before you write about it. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:32, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- Here you go again straight to uncivil discussion about the contributor. The misinformation I supposedly inserted into the article was that the gods were gods of something which you say they aren't I can go on about If a god is heavily associated with something that would mean they are the God of it. But this is all meaningless to the inclusion of infoboxes and purely semantics. You seem hellbent on trying to discredit me in a way filled with passive aggressive remarks that are very uncivil and do not have a place in civil discussion. Dots321 (talk) 22:43, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- Luckily for our readers, when users such as yourself apply garbled misinformation to these articles, it's swiftly reverted. This included your desire to insert that Sif is "god of wheat" among several other typical infobox simplifications to the point of misinformation. You're not helping the project with that, you're harming it. If you detect that you have a poor handle on what you're discussing, ask on the talk page first. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Here you go again straight to uncivil discussion about the contributor. The misinformation I supposedly inserted into the article was that the gods were gods of something which you say they aren't I can go on about If a god is heavily associated with something that would mean they are the God of it. But this is all meaningless to the inclusion of infoboxes and purely semantics. You seem hellbent on trying to discredit me in a way filled with passive aggressive remarks that are very uncivil and do not have a place in civil discussion. Dots321 (talk) 22:43, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you don't know what you're talking about, expect to get called out on it. Don't try to insert misinformation in Wikipedia articles. Learn about a topic before you write about it. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:32, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
I believe the consensus against infoboxes on Norse mythology pages is based on a misreading of the use and implication of infoboxes. If anything their purpose is the opposite of what is being asserted: to take a subject complex enough the article itself cannot be reduced to a simple list of facts, but sufficiently entangled with other subjects that a reader might need to quickly look up one fact about them without having to wade through a complex article, and present a bullet-point version of such facts as are known about the subject.
I must also question Bloodofox's assertion above that "our Norse myth articles are fortunately in a much better state than most". The Norse myth articles are in a terrible state. They appear to be written solely for the benefit of readers who are already scholars, as they take familiarity with the intricate procedures involved in folklore scholarship as a prerequisite for reading the article. I don't believe this is the intention, but they are being curated by people who are familiar with scholarly procedure and have apparently forgotten that not everyone is.
—VeryRarelyStable 03:06, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- Most of our Norse myth-related articles are written to WP:GA standards by way of the tireless efforts of our editors—one of the few on the site that care about the quality of folklore-related articles—and are objectively heads and shoulders above all other mythology-related articles on the site. They are by and large written using the highest quality sources available. Just about every other group of myth-related articles on the site are poorly-referenced opinion pieces, often with terrible sourcing. From the sounds of it, this is a you problem: you might consider less time on talk pages and more time getting familiar with the basics before commenting. :bloodofox: (talk) 06:37, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
From the sounds of it, this is a you problem: you might consider less time on talk pages and more time getting familiar with the basics before commenting
This right here is very much unwarranted and goes against
- Most of our Norse myth-related articles are written to WP:GA standards by way of the tireless efforts of our editors—one of the few on the site that care about the quality of folklore-related articles—and are objectively heads and shoulders above all other mythology-related articles on the site. They are by and large written using the highest quality sources available. Just about every other group of myth-related articles on the site are poorly-referenced opinion pieces, often with terrible sourcing. From the sounds of it, this is a you problem: you might consider less time on talk pages and more time getting familiar with the basics before commenting. :bloodofox: (talk) 06:37, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion.
Zeroth statement by volunteer (Norse mythology infoboxes)[edit]
A preliminary discussion is in order to determine whether DRN will be useful in resolving this dispute. Please read DRN Rule D. Please read the first infobox ArbCom case and the second infobox ArbCom case. The discussion of whether to have infoboxes in articles is a contentious topic, and, by continuing in this discussion, you acknowledge that disruptive editing is subject to Arbitration Enforcement.
The opening statement by the filing party displays an ignorance of Wikipedia policies concerning infoboxes and global and local consensus. The statement asks for:
Either the removal of the deity info box template and subsequent removal from any pages using them or the inclusion of infoboxes for all Norse deities
In other words, there is a demand to apply the same rule to Norse mythological deities as to Greek and other mythological deities. The use of infoboxes is governed by local consensus. If there is no local consensus, then the use of an infobox is based on an article-by-article choice.
I have two questions for each editor at this time. (There may be more questions later.) First, are they willing to take part in moderated discussion, at least briefly, subject to DRN Rule D? Second, what does each editor think should be done with respect to infoboxes in Norse deity articles:
- 1. Strongly encourage infoboxes?
- 2. Permit infoboxes on an article-by-article basis, to be decided by article talk page discussion, or article talk page RFC?
- 3. Strongly discourage infoboxes?
Robert McClenon (talk) 04:17, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Zeroth statements by editors (Norse mythology infoboxes)[edit]
As the Editor that opened this dispute I agree that
Either the removal of the deity info box template and subsequent removal from any pages using them or the inclusion of infoboxes for all Norse deities
isn't reasonable. It wasn't made out of ignorance as I know a sweeping change such as removing infoboxes from a whole subject can't be resolved on DRN which is about solving more local issues. But it was made to discuss the topic more, it isn't a good way to start discussion. And I will admit that this is a shortcoming of mine.
Referring to the first question I would be willing to partake in moderated discussion. Now about the second question.
As someone who very much likes things to be standardized. Another reason for my proposed resolution, even if I knew one of them was an unreasonable resolution for DRN, my bad on my part. I am in favor of
1.Strongly Encourage infoboxes
and to a lesser extant
2.Permit infoboxes on an article-by-article basis, to be decided by article talk page discussion, or article talk page RFC
or
3. Strongly discourage infoboxes
if the majority of other mythology article were to sometime in the future remove their infoboxes, although this is a hypothetical scenario and not my view point right now.
Dots321 (talk) 12:06, 2 July 2024 (UTC))
For me the primary concern is the readability issue; I feel an infobox would go some way towards mitigating that. The article might be a turgid sea of jargon, but at least people visiting it seeking one reference to use in some other context would have somewhere to look without having to wade through it all.
(Readability is the #1 criterion given for GA status, separate and prior to accuracy and the quantity or quality of sources. I don't believe the page would pass that test if it were to be reassessed.)
I note that since 2008 the basis of the consensus against infoboxes has been that they "are suitable for things like statistics and disjoint facts about cities and countries"; that they "pigeonhole" things; that they "may be good for baseball cards" but not for subjects with cultural depth. What I would most like to see from this discussion is a statement, from a party with knowledge of broad Wikipedia practice but disinterested in the outcome of this particular discussion, as to whether this is, generally speaking, a fair site-wide characterization of the usage, purpose, and connotation of infoboxes. If it is, then the consensus has an outside authority to bolster future arguments. If not, then that consensus should be reconsidered.
—VeryRarelyStable 03:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
If we thought infoboxes would help or be appropriate to these articles, we'd have already added them. The only requests we see for them appear to be from users who would prefer complex deities from the historic record were discussed like car models, baseball players, or comic book characters: there is no 'canon' and every aspect of these figures is complicated, with descriptions and other data often varying by source, time, and place.
It doesn't help that the users demanding infoboxes don't seem to have bothered with the basics on these topics. If they had, they'd know very well what a pointless discussion this is. Of the several editors have worked on these article over the years, most of them scholars in historical linguistics or folklore studies, the overwhelming consensus has 'infoboxes for these articles are pointless at best and promote misinformation at worst'.
Hopefully we'll get specialists who know what they're talking about in other folklore areas of Wikipedia because right now Wikipedia badly suffers from poor coverage of these topics beyond northern Europe.
Meanwhile, we've got a few editors here who contribute nothing to the article but seem to have a tireless appetite for demanding that we insert infoboxes on the article. Wikipedia has a lot of problems that need solving: attempting to get infoboxes on some of the site's best myth articles isn't resolving any issues but it is wasting our time. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:24, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
It doesn't help that the users demanding infoboxes don't seem to have bothered with the basics on these topics. If they had, they'd know very well what a pointless discussion this is.
I've pointed out countless times that snide remarks against editors like these isn't allowed on DRN. But yet you still persist against me and even VeryRarlyStable. You didn't need to insert that "these editors don't know anything" multiple times but you did anyways. DRN is a place for civil discussion about the subject, not some internet forum, where if you discredit the other user in this passive aggressive way you win. Dots321 (talk) 13:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)Meanwhile, we've got a few editors here who contribute nothing to the article but seem to have a tireless appetite for demanding that we insert infoboxes on the article
- These "snide remarks", as you put them, are crucial for understanding what's happening here. In short, we have a couple of editors here with a very poor handle of the material demanding that we add infoboxes to some of Wikipedia's best myth articles. They want to treat complex figures from myth like they are cars models, comic book characters, or similar, while our leads already handle these matters perfectly well, employing nuance. These infoboxes are redundant and misleading and show a very poor understanding of the material they're supposed to reflect. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
First statement by volunteer (Norse mythology infoboxes)[edit]
Read DRN Rule D again. Please pay particular attention to sections D.4 and D.6. Comment on content, not contributors. Discuss edits, not editors. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Address your answers to the community and the moderator (me).
One editor wants to have the same practice with regard to infoboxes for Norse gods as for other mythological gods. Do they have a reason, other than the general principle of consistency, why they want to specify a standard practice across different mythologies and pantheons?
I have looked at the documentation of WikiProject Mythology and have not found a style guide or similar standard, and in particular have not found a guideline about infoboxes. If any editor is aware of a guideline about infoboxes that is applicable to mythology, or specifically to Norse mythology, please identify it. If there is no project guideline (and I haven't found one), then a decision on infoboxes is made on an article basis. It appears that articles on Greek gods or Mesopotamian gods have infoboxes because the editors of those articles have chosen on an article-by-article basis to have infoboxes.
It appears that any editor who wants infoboxes for Norse gods can either discuss them on an article-by-article basis, and possibly have RFCs on an article-by-article basis, or can work at the level of WikiProject Mythology.
What does each editor want to do now, or think should be the next step? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
First statements by editors (Norse mythology infoboxes)[edit]
Standardization is a part of my reason for the inclusion of infoboxes, but is not the sole reason. I feel like infoboxes can bring up information scattered around the article into an accessible summery, like equivalent gods. On Thor's page the section where it discusses Thor's connection with different gods from other mythologies, is quite far down thus less likely to be seen by readers who'd just read the summery, or skim the page. An infobox can take this information and make it accessible to these types of readers. Any other points I feel like can be better explained be VeryRarelyStable.
Dots321 (talk) 20:00, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Accessibility is key. For deities that have largely ceased to be worshipped, the Norse gods have a relatively prominent position in present-day culture – close to par, I would say, with the Graeco-Roman gods. Consequently, like a scholarly article with many citations, they are being referenced on the peripheries of an increasing number of formerly unrelated areas of culture.
Whether we like it or not, this means that people will increasingly be coming by to seek small snippets of information about them. We can ask them to drop what they're doing and read the whole article instead, but they're not going to. In many cases, they will have received some misinformation and be seeking to confirm whether it is true or not. If they can't find the information, some proportion of them are going to decide that the misinformation is true (since they can't find a clear statement to the contrary), and repeat it. If we care about misinformation we need to care about accessibility and readability.
Which, as I have already said, is my main concern with regard to infoboxes. It would take me beyond the scope of this discussion to expand upon this point, but while experts in a given subject are obviously the most qualified people to judge the accuracy and reliability of articles on that subject, they are, by reason of their very expertise, the least qualified to judge the readability of such articles – because the technicalities and terminology are all familiar to them and they do not see how daunting, or baffling, they are to non-experts. Lay reader contributions are essential.
So I would be less concerned about the absence of infoboxes if someone were to rewrite each Norse mythology article thoroughly, from the ground up, to the point where they lead non-expert readers gently from familiar concepts to unfamiliar, instead of throwing them into the scholarly deep end and letting them sink or swim. No factual point need be lost, but much of the terminology would have to be simplified. While we're waiting for someone to volunteer to do that, I suggest we use an infobox for accessibility in the meantime.
As regards standardization, I think there's a case to be made for consistent usage of the {{Infobox deity}} template across the mythology and religion articles, which might need to be raised at the relevant WikiProject. It's not simply consistency for aesthetics' sake, but that consistency lends aid to coherency. Speaking for myself, I think I tend to subconsciously read the size of an infobox as a quick proxy measure of the importance and scholarly depth of its topic. I suspect I am not alone.
(I mean, of course, the size of an article's infobox as compared to the infoboxes of comparable articles. I don't compare the infobox for Aphrodite to the infobox for Dunedin, but I do compare it to the infobox for Enki.)
—VeryRarelyStable 12:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Second statement by volunteer (Norse mythology infoboxes)[edit]
Two editors have made statements that support the inclusion of infoboxes for Norse deities. The editors who oppose infoboxes have not made statements. However, it is clear that the editors who want infoboxes can take either of two approaches. The first is the article-by-article approach. They can develop infoboxes, one at a time, for Norse deity articles, and insert them into the articles. The editors who oppose the infoboxes will revert their addition, at which point the proponents can submit RFCs on whether to include the infobox. The infobox should be developed before the RFC is submitted, so that the community will know what they are voting for or against. The second approach is the subject-wide approach. The editors who support infoboxes can discuss at WikiProject Mythology, and can develop and implement a style guide that provides that infoboxes should be used for articles on deities. Alternatively, a style guide can be developed that provides that infoboxes should not be used for articles on deities.
Please let me know which approach will be taken by infobox proponents. Are there any other questions or comments? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:16, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Second statements by editors (Norse mythology infoboxes)[edit]
First, there is a consensus that infoboxes are at best useless and at worst bearers of misinformation for this topic. Consensus has always been squarely against infoboxes on these articles, as demonstrated quite clearly above. Given the lack of consensus for infoboxes (are we really debating this?), none of us who are opposed to this should be dragged further into this discussion. Keep in mind that we're dealing here with a duo of editors who are insisting we add phrases like "god of wheat" to our Sif article and "god of wisdom" to our Odin article, displaying not only ignorance of the topic but a lack of concern for nuance or sourcing. Edits like that are routinely reverted on sight to avoid article quality decay.
Second, there's zero reason to apply infoboxes to these articles. These are not car models, comic book characters, or train types we're discussing here but complex figures from myth. A core group of motifs remains consistent among them but there are many unknowns and some material about them varies by source, and those sources come with their own complex considerations. The data we have can on deities can change over time as for example deities develop into different roles or in difference spaces (a matter our Classical myth articles are for example painfully bad about communicating to our readers). Frankly, none of our myth or folklore articles should have infoboxes: they're totally pointless for them. To be correct, the lead must cover the material with the nuance and variation required of the topic.
Third, the few editors who demand here that we add these infoboxes have demonstrated a very poor understanding of the material they're discussing. They haven't taken the time to become familiar enough with the topic to discuss it, much less demand that we treat it in any specific way. Suggesting that there's a need for infoboxes on all folklore articles appears to be a suggestion made out of 'I've been reverted!' spite to push back on the rest of us, a problem not unique to Wikipedia but all too present in the project. Obviously, there is not and should not be any requirement for infoboxes on our articles, and edits and comments from these editors have demonstrated that they are not in a position of familiarity with these topics to even imply as much. It's petty and unhelpful.
Look, this discussion is not constructive. Wikipedia has many problems that need assistance resolving and a lack of infoboxes is not one of them. We need more hands to help with improvement on our folklore coverage beyond northern Europe, not time wastes like this. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:41, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Well, I think it's pretty clear what the outcome would be of an RFC. A consensus is not a consensus if it defines its community to exclude all those who dissent.
I see infoboxes yet again being dismissed as suitable for "car models, comic book characters, or train types" as if it were already agreed that that is all infoboxes are good for. This is an example of the logical fallacy known as begging the question. My initial comment on Talk:Thor was made simply and solely to raise that question. I do not agree that infoboxes imply that a subject is simple and cut-and-dried, and no argument has been advanced to support the claim that they imply any such thing; that claim has now been asserted without support, by my count, six times in this discussion alone.
That being the case, I support seeking standardization with guidance from WikiProject Mythology.
I have said what I have to say about readability; I do not feel my concerns have been addressed, but my repeating what I have already said will add nothing to it.
—VeryRarelyStable 08:25, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
I agree with VeryRarelyStable and support seeking guidance from RFC or WikiProject Mythology. Although a bit unrelated to the sole inclusion of infoboxes I would like to raise the question what does it mean to be the god of something. If a deity is associated with something, doesn't that mean that deity is the god of it? But this question is best continued elsewhere like WikiProject Mythology.
Dots321 (talk) 11:21, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
List of South Korean girl groups[edit]
– Discussion in progress.Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- 98Tigerius (talk · contribs)
- Hotwiki (talk · contribs)
- Ravinglogician (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
A disagreement about why putting an end year to some active group just because they don't have group activity this year.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:List of South Korean girl groups#Year active
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
To have a consensus whether to put an end year or put "present" instead to those active groups.
Summary of dispute by Hotwiki[edit]
Some editors in that talk page are arguing why the present year for the girl group - Blackpink isn't included. That girl group has ZERO group activity in 2024. When I asked those two editors to give a 2024 activity for the group, that would warrant being labeled as an active group in the present year, they couldn't give any. Its purely misinformation, to change it to "2016–present", when the girl group hasn't been active in the year 2024 yet.Hotwiki (talk) 09:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Ravinglogician[edit]
One type of information that this page provides for the listed groups is their period of activity, usually of the form “‹start year›–‹end year›” or “‹start year›–present”. Typically the former indicates that that the group officially announced its disbandment or some kind of extended hiatus, while the latter indicates the absence of such an event, i.e. the group is still active.
Recently however a few of us noticed that one editor has unilaterally declared a different standard to ascertain active status, namely “has the group performed a group activity in the calendar year in question”. I think this is problematic for a number of reasons:
- The editor in question claims that they check the group's social media accounts, search for articles about them etc, thus determining that no such activity has occurred. This is effectively Original Research, instead of relying on a reputable outside source making the claim that the group is not active.
- The main pages of these groups still list them as “‹start year›–present”. I believe having such inconsistencies between pages is undesirable, and the way to resolve them is by deferring to the subject matter experts, i.e. the editors maintaining a group's main page.
- This standard is unlikely to be applied consistently even within the page itself, due to the laborious and inherently unreliable nature of determining it.
- Finally I believe this editor's standard of activity defies most people's expectations, as evidenced by multiple editors disagreeing with them on the talk page; by the editors of the groups' main pages obviously using a different standard; and by frequent attempts to modify the page to the commonly accepted idea of a group being active, that the editor in question then reverts.
This dispute has mainly revolved around Blackpink, with Mamamoo and Girls' Generation also having been brought up. Ravinglogician (talk) 20:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
List of South Korean girl groups discussion[edit]
Zeroth statement by volunteer (Korean groups)[edit]
I am ready to assist in resolving this dispute, and in particular to determine whether moderated discussion may be in order. Please read DRN Rule A. Be civil and concise. When I ask questions, you should address your answers to the moderator (me) on behalf of the community, not to each other. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. It appears that the content issue is when and whether an end date should be listed for groups. So I have four questions. First, do the editors want moderated discussion in accordance with DRN Rule A? Second, are there any other article content issues besides whether and when a group should have an end date listed? Third, should the article begin with a rule stating whether and when a group should have an end date listed? Fourth, if so, what should the rule state? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:05, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Zeroth statements by editors (Korean groups)[edit]
First, I'm fine with a moderated discussion. Personally speaking, I think I've been civil regarding this topic. Second, I don't think the article has any other issues that need to be addressed, based from the talk page of the article. Third/fourth, I think there should be a rule in that article. A girl group should only include "present" in the "years active" column, when a girl group already had activity in the present year (2024) - the activity could be a public appearance as a group or a new music release with the girl group doing promotional activities for the release. Girl groups like Twice and Red Velvet have done those in this present year (2024). It cannot be said yet (from January 1, 2024 to July 3, 2024) to girl groups like Mamamoo, Blackpink and Girls' Generation.Hotwiki (talk) 05:38, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
First, I agree with a moderated discussion. Second, no other aspect of the article needs dispute resolution at the moment. Third, I think there should be a rule governing this; no strong opinions about whether the rule should be stated in the article itself. Fourth, I would be happy with either of the following two rules:
- The group's period of activity in this page should mirror the group's main page.
- The group should only have an end date if the group's main page contains a reference to a reliable source regarding the group's disbandment or otherwise temporary or permanent halt to the group's activities. (I.e. no need to weigh down this page with such references, as long as the main pages of the groups have them.) Otherwise the group should be listed as “…–present”.
Adopting either of these rules would result in all of Blackpink, Mamamoo and Girls' Generation to be listed as “…–present”, based on the contents of their respective main pages as I'm typing this. Ravinglogician (talk) 07:59, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
First, I'm all for a moderate discussion. Second, none only this content issue. Third, yes there should be a rule regarding the end date of any group. Fourth, a reliable source must be present about the group's inactivity/hiatus on their main page to mirror in the list article otherwise indicating it is pure original research. 98𝚃𝙸𝙶𝙴𝚁𝙸𝚄𝚂 • [𝚃𝙰𝙻𝙺] 10:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
First statement by volunteer (Korean groups)[edit]
If I say to be civil and concise, I do not mean that anyone has not been civil. Reminders that civility is the fourth pillar of Wikipedia are sometimes routine reminders.
It appears that there are two different ideas as to what the rule should be about end dates. Some editors say that an end date should be listed if a reliable source says that the group disbanded or has a hiatus. Others say that only years in which group activity has been reported by reliable sources should be listed. I will comment that applying such a rule to the present year, especially in the early months of the year, could falsely cause groups to appear to have disbanded or been on hiatus. Is there a third idea for the rule about end dates, or should we choose between those two rules?
I am asking each editor to specify what rule they support, the first rule, the second rule, or a third rule. We can then either reach consensus, or request community input via an RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
First statements by editors (Korean groups)[edit]
Benevolent dictatorship[edit]
– New discussion.Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
Me and LokiTheLiar (and some other editors, but mostly the two of us) have been engaged in a long-running dispute about whether to include examples in the page. We've gone through RfCs and pings to WP:Politics, but never got anywhere; in fact the latest dispute suggests we even interpret the close reason for the previous RfC differently.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
I don't believe more discussion between me and LokiTheLiar will lead anywhere; we simply disagree on a fundamental level and there's no prospect that will change. Any further discussion will just be rehashing old arguments.
Weighing in on how to interpret the close reason would be a good start.
Summary of dispute by LokiTheLiar[edit]
I interpret the close of the RFC a year ago to mean that dictators that are foundational to the concept of a benevolent dictator, like Cincinnatus, should be included with attribution, and that no other examples should be added even with attribution. I also think that this is a correct editorial decision as someone who started and participated in that RFC. Note that I wouldn't necessarily mind brief mentions of specific people, but I definitely think that organizing the page as a series of examples is very bad. Loki (talk) 16:27, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
Benevolent dictatorship discussion[edit]
PS: Courtesy ping to Tayi Arajakate as the closer of the RfC (although as far as I can tell, they are inactive). Banedon (talk) 03:07, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
Zeroth statement by volunteer (Benevolent dictatorship)[edit]
I am willing to try to work on this dispute to see how to try to resolve this dispute. Please read DRN Rule A, which will apply to our preliminary discussion. Be civil and concise. I see that there was an RFC about one-and-one-half years ago, and that the RFC did not resolve the disagreement, and now there appears to be disagreement about how to interpret the close of the RFC. Since the RFC was more than a year ago, and had disagreement at the time, a new RFC is probably a better idea than moderated discussion aimed at interpreting the RFC. So I have a few questions. Address your answers to my questions to the community and the moderator, not to each other. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion of the answers. First, do the editors agree to accept DRN Rule A? Second, are there any other content disagreements besides whether to provide examples? Third, does any editor have any objection to another RFC? We will probably have another RFC anyway. It will probably be preceded by discussion to define how to word the RFC, such as the inclusion or non-inclusion of specific examples. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Zeroth statements by editors (Benevolent dictatorship)[edit]
1) Sure, DRN Rule A looks reasonable. 2) There're no other content disputes that I'm aware of (LokiTheLiar might have a different interpretation). 3) Sure, we can have another RfC - but how will you do it different such that it can resolve the dispute? Banedon (talk) 05:41, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
First statement by volunteer (Benevolent dictatorship)[edit]
One editor has asked a question. The other editor has not yet made a statement, and is still invited to make a statement. One editor asks: Sure, we can have another RfC - but how will you do it different such that it can resolve the dispute?
The first problem with the previous RFC is that some editors thought that the close was wrong, and disagreed with the RFC They ignored or disregarded the RFC rather than challenging the RFC close at WP:AN. This meant that the RFC was an empty exercise. If the result of the second RFC is in any way contentious, it should be reviewed in WP:AN, rather than ignored. Then, after any challenge of the RFC at WP:AN to the community, editors who edit against consensus persistently should be partially blocked.
Unless there is a reason why there should not be a second RFC, a draft of the second RFC will be prepared,. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:49, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
First statements by editors (Benevolent dictatorship)[edit]
Talk:Taylor Swift[edit]
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Closed as filed, as a tagging dispute rather than a true article content dispute. The issue appears to be whether to put a tag on the lede paragraph so that uninvolved wiki editors can review and contribute to fix the issue. The purpose of all content dispute resolution is to improve the encyclopedia. DRN does not handle tagging disputes, and maybe the language at the top of the page should specifically mention and exclude tagging disputes, because tagging, as such, does not improve the encyclopedia, and discussion of whether to tag an article would be more productive as discussion of whether to change and improve the article. Tagging disputes are essentially a useless distraction. If the filing editor wants to revise the lede paragraph, they can discuss that as such on the article talk page, by proposing a particular rewritten version. If there is a local consensus against the change, a Request for Comments can be used to request that uninvolved editors review the issue and contribute to fixing it, if they think it needs to be fixed. If discussion of a specific rewrite of the lede paragraph on the article talk page is lengthy and inconclusive, a new request for dispute resolution can be filed here; however, after discussion on the article talk page, an RFC is more likely to be useful than another filing here. In the meantime, resume discussion on the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
|---|
Kylie Minogue[edit]
– New discussion.Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
Whenever I try to edit this article to fix wordy hard-to-read text or to re-add missing information, it always gets reverted with comments like "not needed" and "stop trying to change it." I try to take it to the talk page to reach a compromise, but it always reaches an impasse because all arguments essentially whittle down to "Keep it as it is." and "It is not an improvement in my opinion."
It also doesn't help that whenever I reply, I get like 5 more replies saying that even things such as basic grammatical copy/editing are "not improvements" and "too drastic changes".
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kylie_Minogue#Tension_critical_acclaim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kylie_Minogue#Contemporary_sources_for_%22Princess_of_Pop%22
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
I do want to reach compromise and be more constructive and eventually work on more of the article, but the filibustering is whittling me down. I would like a third or fourth opinion on the whole situation.
Summary of dispute by Hotwiki[edit]
@PHShanghai: has a pattern/habit of everytime they come across the article of Kylie Minogue, they would drastically change the lead section of the article, to the point they've been called out for misformation several times.[10] They claimed that Minogue's first four albums were teen pop albums which were false.[11] When I brought it up, in the talk page, they admitted that they haven't listened to those albums in a long time. They claimed other singles from Minogue's albums Fever had the same chart success as "Can't Get You Out of My Head" which was false, since the other singles didn't enter the top 20 of Billboard Hot 100 and weren't number-one singles in Australia and the Uk.[12] They claimed that certain singles "Dancing", "Say Something" and "Magic" were critically acclaimed yet those singles didn't win any awards.[13] At one point, they claimed that the singles "Say Something" and "Magic" made a significant noise, yet those singles failed to chart in the top 40. The editor also made a RFC request in the talkpage - their proposal to the lead section, and no one really agreed to their proposal.[14] They also had an issue with the infobox picture, to the point they've changed it to two different files.[15] The 2nd file, when someone cropped their uploaded file [16], they wouldn't let that cropped version remain in the infobox [17] The changes they've made in July 2024, a grammatically change wasn't needed and it wasn't an issue to begin with.[18] They were the only one who is activitely trying to alter this sentence "She has been recognised for reinventing herself in music as well as fashion, and is referred to by the European press as the "Princess of Pop" and a style icon." The issue with PHShanghai, goes beyond grammatically change. Every once in a while, they would alter the lead paragraph specifically. There were several times, they made it more wordy when the lead section should be brief. A lot of their changes in the lead section aren't really needed "in my opinion" and they had a history of posting misinformation in the article. Other issues are already discussed in the talk page/talk page archive, and there are more issues there that were brought up, regarding PHShanghai's lead section contributions.Hotwiki (talk) 01:56, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Kylie Minogue discussion[edit]
Zeroth statement by moderator (Kylie Minogue)[edit]
I am ready to act as moderator if the editors here want moderated discussion as the way to resolve any content disputes. Please read and agree to DRN Rule A. I will restate a few points in the rules. First, be civil and concise, which means to be concise. Overly long posts may help the poster feel better, but do not always clarify the issues. Second, comment on content, not contributors. Discuss edits, not editors. Those two statements say the same thing, which needs repeating.
The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article. So I will ask a two-part question. First, does each editor agree to DRN Rule A? Second, what specifically do you want to change that the other editor wants to leave the same, or what do you want to leave the same that the other editor wants to change? Do not give general answers. Be specific at DRN. We need to know what we are discussing. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:43, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
Zeroth statements by editors (Kylie Minogue)[edit]
- I have read and agree to DRN Rule A. I am only here regarding my concerns about the quality of the prose of this article, which given that it is a featured article that was last reviewed in 2009, may need a WP:FAR to reevaluate the article quality. I want to maintain the article's FA quality (with regards to references and text quality, once again) but given the constant stonewalling, it has been admittedly hard to do so. Specifically, I would like to make the article more concise by whittling down the lead paragraph's word count from 450 words to 400~ words, and clean up the article body to be under 6,000~ words (right now, the word count is currently at 6,700 words.)
- There's information there that can be moved to other sections (regarding Minogue's businesses outside of music), in addition, every article section all have 5 paragraphs each; I'm confident it can be consolidated to a more MOS-friendly 3-4 paragraphs. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 06:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)